PhilMarkey

Hi Guys,
Sorry I've not had much time to stop by the forum lately.

Just thought I’d let you know that I’m releasing fresh seed of Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis for the first time. I’ve been trailing them for the past 2 years in the UK, and I can say that they’re not quite as cold-hardy as Musa itinerans var. formosana, especially those that I collect at very high elevation, but nevertheless, these do prefer cool conditions, and I would be interested in reading some of your experiences in growing these.

The links to buy Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis seeds in 13 different languages: English, 简体中文, 中國傳統, Español, Português, русский, 日本人, Français, Bahasa Indonesia, Deutsch, Türk Dili, Italiano, Srpsko-hrvatski

Here’s a link to some information I wrote about discovering the natural range of Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis in Taiwan.

Best wishes,
Phil

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Bananaking29

100 seeds ordered :-)

Bananaking29

Phill, can you post more pics form this type?

PhilMarkey

I think the better pictures are in my article: Trebrown Nurseries Blog » Discussing banana plants
But I searched my files and found these.



Regards,
Phil

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Yuri Barros

What is the species that Kavalan People make their Clothes..........???

PhilMarkey

Good question Yuri

As far as I know there is only one old lady who still knows how to do it, and she is teaching youngsters from the local schools what she knows, which is all good. But I think she has forgotten what species to use, or perhaps she never knew, because she is using any species she is given, which are generally cultivated species from local fruit plantations.

I don’t think this is what they would have used in the past, and I know that Musa balbisiana was the species used in the far south of Taiwan and in Chiayi, in west central Taiwan. But I have been unable to find Musa balbisiana in the east of Taiwan around Ilan or Hualien, and here the only species naturally occurring are Musa itinerans var. formosana and Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis, which I am sure they must have used for cloth manufacture. Musa balbisiana var. liukiuensis is the species used in the Ryukyu of Japan.

Interestingly, I have conducted a lot of research on Lanyu Island for different palm species and also bananas there. And I’ve questioned the local Yami people of Lanyu. They’ve told me stories of the old days where they would fight with other villages on the island wearing armour fashioned from palm leaves. Other than these garments, and ceremonial garments the only clothing they ever wore was a loincloth woven from banana fibres. I’ve learnt of places on the coast where the ladies would work the banana fibre with sea-water, and I’ve been shown on two separate occasions the species of banana they cultivated in the mountains for this purpose. The species is Musa insularimontana. Musa insularimontana is in my opinion another itinerans species, it differs from Musa itinerans var. formosana only in the smaller sized plants and the seeds which are more than twice the size.

No banana species could have reached Lanyu island unaided, and there are no native species of banana on Lanyu, or any of the Batanes, or indeed any of the Ryukyu or Japanese Islands. Only Taiwan island, the Philippines and Mainland China are the only local places with native banana species. And for this reason I consider Musa insularimontana a species introduced to Lanyu from Taiwan, and introduced for the manufacture of banana cloth.

Regards,
Phil

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I'm the seed dealer at www.trebrown.com

Yuri Barros

Amazing..............

Great study you did.................

bigdog

Hey Phil, have you ever found seeds of Musa insularimontana?

PhilMarkey

Hi Frank,
Yes! Collected seeds only once, in 2009. Never sold them, nor distributed them in any way. Well, Christian Port from Liverpool had half the seeds, as he wanted to go there, I took him with me and we shared the seeds. Pretty sure Christian didn't distribute any seeds either. The viability of the seeds was 100% I only grew a few on to test them out here in the nursery. I still have the plants growing. The reason I haven't yet offered them for sale is that I don't consider this a good species. I'm convinced it was introduced to Lanyu island (had to have been), and it could only have been taken there from the mainland of Taiwan. And Musa insularimontana is part of the itinerans tribe, quite possibly just Musa itinerans var. formosana but with larger seeds.



As I just mentioned - the main difference is in the size of the seeds, see the picture – the large seeds are M. insularimontana and the small seeds are M. itinerans var. formosana. I still have the seeds (old now) and I'll send you some. Shouldn't think they'll germinate, but at least you can compare the size for yourself.

I will be back on Lanyu this summer (just trying to secure the funding), where I'm there (and in the Batanes of the Philippines) mainly regarding the Pinanga palms, but I intend collecting fresh banana seeds at the same time. I think I'll offer them for sale under the name of Musa insularimontana for now, but I can't see that name surviving somehow.

Best wishes,
Phil

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bigdog

Phil, that's interesting about your Musa insularimontana theory. You could very well be right. I accept your offer of the old seeds though, and have sent you a PM.

Can you share with us why you say that Musa insularimontana "had to have been" introduced to Lanyu Island? This is neat stuff.

PhilMarkey

Frank "had to have been" is my conclusion. I'll list my reasons, and perhaps you could share your own conclusions?

1. Habit - Musa itinerans var. formosana and Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis both grow in large clumps, and take advantage of all the suitable places for growing in. Musa insularimontana is rare (exceptionally rare) in the few sites on Lanyu. If it had been there for any length of time you'd expect it to be in large clumps, and have occupied some of the many suitable sites there are to grow in. The pattern I see is a recently introduced species with only a few stems for each clump, and growing (or their descendants) only where they were once cultivated - by the Tian-Chi pond and an old yam paddy on Red Head Mountain. True! I have found a few individual plants self-seeding in a couple of ravines, but this only goes to prove a very recent dispersal.
   
2. I have been told by the Yami people the two main sites (Tian-Chi and Red Head) were where the bananas were cultivated for banana cloth.
   
3. The flora of Lanyu is Philippine. The island is separated from Taiwan by a very deep oceanic trench. There are no banana species native to Lanyu, the Batanes of the Philippines, or the Ryukyu islands of Japan. Yes! It could have arrived on the island by birds, but that must be recent.
   
4. The similarity between Musa itinerans var. formosana and Musa insularimontana is great.
   
5. Musa insularimontana is not suited to Lanyu island. The banana can olny grow at elevation (200 - 500 m), and when you consider Musa itinerans var. formosana on the mainland of Taiwan it too only grows at elevation, in the south of Taiwan I've yet to find Musa itinerans growing lower than 500 m.
   
6. The Japanese "Tashiroi" first described the banana, but he didn't regard it as wild endemic - he said it was cultivated.

There are some arguments for though!
The Chinese have only just occupied the island since the Japanese before them. The Yami people were tribal and very territorial (still today - people from one tribal village on the island can't access to forest of another tribal village). But, being sea-farers the Yami almost certainly visited Okinawa, and Taiwan, where they probably learnt to use banana fibre.
The Yami needed the bananas to produce their only clothing (loin-cloth).
But the Yami arrived on Lanyu from the Batane islands of the Philippines, and they don't have bananas there. There, they made clothing (leaf-skirts) from Pheonix palm leaves. There is only one individual Pheonix palm on Lanyu - you'd expect them to have brought these palms with them if they needed them for clothing!

My conclusion is that the Yami learnt to make banana cloth either from the Ryukyu islands of Japan or from Taiwan, or from the Philippines. They then needed a banana. So they went to Taiwan and found one.
The bananas are only found in a semi-cultivated state in yam paddies or by Tian-Chi pond. And only now are they starting to become naturalized in high ravines on Lanyu.
Musa insularimontana is therefore not endemic to Lanyu island. I just need to find one growing on the Taiwan mainland.

So what's your opinion?

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PhilMarkey

Hi Frank, everyone,
Overnight I've thought of a few more things I need to say...

It's natural to assume that species radiate out from the larger, main landmasses to the smaller islands. After-all there is usually more diversification on the larger land masses. And this certainly appears to be the case with Musa - on the large land masses of Indochina, Philippines and Indonesia. And Musa itinerans var. formosana certainly crossed a land-bridge from China to Taiwan during the glacial maximum which occurred about 20,000 – 18,000 years ago, and it was at this time that the sea level was at its lowest, roughly 120-150 m lower than it is today.

The entire Philippine Arc of volcanic islands, which includes the Batan Islands of the Philippines, Lanyu Island and the Ryukyu Archipelago were formed during the Tertiary 65 to 1.8 million years ago by submarine volcanic activity. The island of Taiwan is even younger and was formed less than 6.5 million years ago by the Luzon Volcanic Arc crashing into the Chinese continental margin and in doing so forced the land mass of Taiwan up from the sea bed.

It is evident that certain plants that were native to this arc of islands (Namely Cycads and Palms from my point of view) made their way to the newly formed island of Taiwan. Quite probably some of the Taiwan landmass includes some of those original islands.

Bananas were NOT on any of these original arc islands, and Musa itinerans arrived in Taiwan from China about 18,000 years ago. In that time Musa itinerans has covered almost all the high ground on the Taiwan mainland, forming huge clumps. It couldn't have crossed over to Lanyu, as the oceanic trench separating the two is over 1500 m deep.



This is my distrubution map (in red) for Musa itinerans var. formosana, follow that link to see the full interactive map.

I've made a few notes on the map - (1) is Lanyu Island, (2) is green island, which did have a land-bridge with Taiwan, and which might be the origin of Musa insularimontana. (3) This area of Taiwan interests me, because it is quite inaccessible, there are no roads near the coast, part of the area is closed off as a military base, and I have no idea if bananas can be found at low elevation. If there are, this would be an obvious origin of Musa insularimontana.

Have I convinced you yet?

Best Phil.

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bigdog

Phil, I can always count on you for a very detailed, educated response! I am inclined to agree with you about M. insularimontana being introduced to Lanyu Island after your arguments. What interests me is the differences between the 2 species. Do you think that there are enough morphological differences between the 2 plants to warrant them being classified as 2 different species? Or do you think it should at least be its own var. of M. itinerans? You've grown them both, right? Do you have any pictures of any cultivated specimens?

Thanks again, Phil!

PhilMarkey

Hi Frank,
Let me say that with regards to taxonomy, I'm more of a splitter than a lumper. That is – if a very similar species is from a totally different provenance, I would prefer to give it a subspecies epithet that identifies it as a different provenance. Example: Musa balbisiana var. liukiuensis coming from the Ryukyu.

If you work in the field you tend to look for how different things are, if you work in a laboratory you're looking for similarities.

Everyone will agree that a St. Bernard is a very different dog than a Chihuahua yet they're both called Canis lupus.

With regards to plants, everyone is keen to pick on the slightest little difference to suggest it's something different. For me, I just like to know from what provenance it originates from. After all, this is a good indicator to the plant's preferences – like it's cold-hardiness for example.

But that's the problem I have with Musa insularimontana. I don't think it is from a different provenance. But I do think it has some minor differences, but is this enough to call it something different? I guess the name, for want of a basic identification should be called: Musa itinerans var. insularimontana. That way, any that are grown in cultivation won't be confused with the others.

Yes! I have plants growing side-by-side, but I don't have them flowering, and I can see little difference. I think it best that I show you pictures from wild specimens.

I'll put Musa insularimontana pictures on the left and similar Musa itinerans var. formosana pictures to the right. (I'll put a caption under each picture just in case you get confussed.



insularimontana fruits | formosana fruits


Musa insularimontana quite yellow looking | This is a very unusual (almost completely yellow Musa itinerans var. formosana bud from high elevation.


insularimontana fruits almost like var kavalanensis but not all like this | formosana fruits very red


insularimontana fruits | formosana fruits


insularimontana | formosana


insularimontana stems are few and well spaced | formosana grows in massive groups and not so well spaced


insularimontana - this is a lonesome individual I found in a mountain ravine | formosana


insularimontana - this and the next few are in the dissused yam paddy on Red Head mountain | formosana - can grow very tall


insularimontana | formosana high elevation in conifer forest


insularimontana | formosana high elevation plants often lose the bright red colour on the stem and fruits


insularimontana | formosana high elevation

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bigdog

Here this thread was supposed to be about Musa itinerans var. kavalanensis and I have gone and hijacked it to be about M. insularimontana, LOL. Thanks very much for those great pictures, Phil! Well, whatever the botanists do with it in the future, I think we can agree that it should be lumped in as a var. of M. itinerans. I wonder how many named varieties there are of M. itinerans now? I really think they are beautiful plants. Very ornamental stems if you keep them cleaned up a bit.

PhilMarkey

Answer = 9

Thank you Frank, and goodnight.

Phil

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bigdog

Phil, seeds arrived last week, thanks much!