permaculturekidd

I've been thinking about trying to improve the breeds of cold-hardy naners like Basjoo and fmr.Velutina; which other then their adaptability, the ability to grow from seed would probably allow better ease to show characteristics.
Though I know from my father who for years bred lovebirds to get various colors and patterns neither he nor I are sure if the techniques are the same for plants.

But I have to wonder if 1. is this futile and 2. if not why has no one done it by now?

Also because fmr.Velutina is basically a annual from what I understand won't it be easier to change in a few generation?

My main goals are to:
Decrease amount of seed to less then 12 seeds
Increase size to an average of 5 to 6 inches
Keep color, flavor, and inhouse flower/fruiting ability


All info will be helpful, thanks in advance;
Lee

Richard

None of the musas are annuals -- they grow from perennial corms.

Seedless would be far more desirable -- you can break your teeth on the seeds.

When you say cold hardy, what U.S. climate zone are you referring to?

Here is a list of edible bananas by estimated USDA cold hardiness:

Name USDA_Hardiness_Estimate
Texas Star 7.0
Amistad 7.5
Carolina King 7.5
Golden Rhinohorn 7.5
1000 Fingers 8.0
Dwarf Orinoco 8.0
Orinoco 8.0
California Gold 8.5
Cardaba 8.5
Double 8.5
Dwarf Brazilian 8.5
Dwarf Puerto Rican 8.5
Ebun Musak 8.5
French Horn 8.5
Giant Plantain 8.5
Goldfinger 8.5
Gran Nain 8.5
High Color Mini 8.5
Ice Cream 8.5
Kalela 8.5
Lady Finger 8.5
Mahoi 8.5
Mauritius 8.5
Mona Lisa 8.5
Monkey Fingers 8.5
Mysore 8.5
Pisang Ceylon 8.5
Pitogo 8.5
Rajapuri 8.5
Saba 8.5
1780 hybrid 9.0
African Rhino Horn 9.0
Argentino 9.0
Belle 9.0
Brazilian 9.0
Dwarf Cavendish 9.0
Dwarf Namwa 9.0
Dwarf Thai 9.0
FHIA-18 9.0
FHIA-20 9.0
FHIA-21 Plantain 9.0
FHIA-23 9.0
Green Red 9.0
Hua Moa 9.0
Iholena 9.0
Kandrian 9.0
Misi Luki of Samoa 9.0
Pace 9.0
Popoulu kaia 9.0
Red Iholene 9.0
Red Jewel 9.0
Sweetheart 9.0
Tuu Gia 9.0
White Iholena 9.0
Williams Hybrid 9.0
Zan Moreno 9.0
Ae Ae 9.5
Dwarf French 9.5
Ele Ele 9.5
Enano Nautia 9.5
FHIA-17 9.5
Golden Beauty 9.5
Manzano 9.5
Namwa 9.5
Pisang Buai 9.5
Praying Hands 9.5
Sumatrana X Gran Nain 9.5
Super Plantain 9.5
Tall Red 9.5
Valery 9.5
Kaulau 10.0
Kofi 10.0
Pisang Klutuk 10.0
Cavendish (banana) 10.5
Cocos 11.0
Dwarf Gros Michel 11.0
Dwarf Red 11.0
Gros Michel 11.0
Jamaican Red 11.0
Kappa Pazham 11.0
Pisang Tandok 11.0
Rose 11.0
Karat 12.0
Kru 12.0
Latundan 12.0
Nino 12.0
Utafun 12.0

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permaculturekidd

I always thought the whole plant dies once it flowers and an offshoot from the mother is used to continue fruit production.

Velutina is hardy to 7b; texas star from what I hear is not that hardy and will die back to the corm in the harsher winters. I also really enjoy its indoor fruiting abililty something I don't think is all too common in the Musa genus.

The fact that Velutina is such a bright and striking color makes it a novelty and I would love to give them away as gifts and to sale through a resturanteur and farmer friend in SF. Its potable and small size would also be a plus for the indoor gardener in even colder regions much like the some peppers cultivars grown indoors in Siberia.

Basjoo is even hardier though with mulching I believe 4b or 5a; dwarfing would be in order before enlarging fruit; its something that could also be better utilized into a bast fiber crop if its incentive is a rare treat for those into the local food movement and into self-suffcientcy in the U.S. and Europe.

With flagstone and a water feature I could probably get a microclimate that would turn my backyard into a zone 10. So its not actually trying to grow something in my backyard; anyway about 5 minutes away there are some banana trees 20' tall in a backyard. I just enjoy novel and unusual plants.

Gabe15

Its not completely futile, but it would be very difficult to get something worthwhile. Instead of rewriting my answer, check out this discussion we had a few weeks ago that should cover what you are wondering as well.

Are There Any Seeded Bananas Used As Food?

If you have any more questions after reading thru the other discussion, you can post them here.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

permaculturekidd

Well I did get some good info from the thread; its highly unlikely I'll find a viable random mutation and the degree of sterilty for a seed producer is for the most part minimal.

I was able to see a cross-section of a v.Velutina it seemed abit bigger then other pictures and from what I can see seperating pulp from seed in your mouth was the degree I was looking for. Nothing like a cavendish; just something like 50 percent seed would be amazing for me. Somewhat like a paw-paw would be even better but not something probable in the next 5 or 10 years.

Since you said this type of banana would be the easiest to domesticate how long do you suppose a 2" or 3" inch 80% seed fruit can change to a 4" to 6" 50% or lower seed would take?

This isn't really about making it a major food source or even a minor one; just a treat or minimal occurence.

ewitte

Just that shoot. I consider the corm part of the plant

Richard

The life of the plant is the corm. Everything above ground is either sex or solar panels.

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Gabe15

One issue is that in normal seeded bananas, pulp growth and fruit development is triggered by the growth of the seeds after the ovules have been fertilized. In edible, non-seeded bananas, pulp growth is triggered by an autonomous auxin release which makes the pulp that is there enlarge without regard for seed growth. If you were to breed a seeded banana that had less seeds, my prediction would be that the fruit would just be smaller, as fewer seeds would mean less pulp. I have collected seeded bananas in which only a portion of the ovules are fertilized, and the fruits are smaller and misshapen because where the seeds are lacking, pulp is also lacking. In order to replace the seeds with pulp, there needs to be another stimulus to trigger pulp growth, this is where the autonomous auxin release would come in, and though there are wild seeded bananas that can do this, and will form pulp without seeds if they don't get pollinated, that kind of mutation is rare and something that would require the growing out of many countless seeds in the hopes of finding that one rare mutant.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

permaculturekidd

So it comes down to a random mutation thats one in 10 million; anyone know where I get get a few hundred seeds?

Is there anyway to tip the scales my way; increasing the chance for mutations to occur? Maybe getting all the seeds from unusual fruit and breeding them together?

Gabe15

The specific mutation required would be parthenocarpy. You could use radiation or mutagens to increase the rate of mutation, but as for specifically having them mutate into parthenocarpic bananas with some technique or chemical, that can't be done today. Studies have been done where auxins were applied to young, undeveloped, unpollinated fruits and the fruits actually grew as if they were parthenocarpic to some degree.

I have been working on a breeding project for almost 4 years now trying to move the parthenocarpic trait into plants like M. velutina. It is going well, but slow, mainly due to the lack of space for growing out plants, but I have a lot of new things in the ground and should be making more crosses soon. I've produced many hundreds of hybrid seeds but have not been successful in fully regenerating a plant from those seeds.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

permaculturekidd

I thought creating hybrids would only be useful for those interested in tissue culture, since hybrids don't have viable seeds. Since UV light can be a mutagen would allowing a continous amount of artificial and natural light make things more likely to occur or would that be miniscule.

I'm somewhat stand-offish from hybrids; although yields might increase, flavor, viability, nutrition, and uniqueness seem to get lost. It like eating a apple or strawberry at a supermarket then trying an heirloom or wild variety; but once you get the trait would you want to crossback? Would the trait become dominant or recessive? Also so far what has the breeding program produced?

Richard

There are plenty of hybrids among Musa and the plant world in general that produce seeds. Further, those whose seed produce a plant "true to form" (same phenetics) and are off-patent are termed heirlooms.

This is a myth perpetrated by some sellers of seeds.

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