Advantages of not relying on fertilizers - Page 2

PR-Giants · 01-04-2015, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

In any case I can delete the posts if you feel they are not adding value to the thread.

I wish you would post more often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

I disagree with your statement ""Forest Floors" are actually some of the worst soils on earth and the term is often used as a marketing gimmick. "

Maybe I'm wrong, but that was what I was taught as a child growing up on a farm in the 1960's.

I just did a search and this was on top of the page, but I'll read some other ones later.

Soil
The Tropical Rain Forest
The lushness of the jungle biome is somewhat illusory. While productivity is high, the soils themselves tend to be of very poor quality. Because of the high rainfall, nutrients are quickly washed out of the topsoil unless they are incorporated in the forest plants. As plant and animal debris falls to the ground, it is quickly decomposed because of the warmth and moisture there. Thus minerals are found mainly in the forest plants, not in the soil. When the plants are removed and cultivation attempted, the soils quickly lose fertility.
The situation is made worse by the lack of humus (the topsoil may be no thicker than 2 in. [= 5 cm]) and the high iron and aluminum content of most of these soils. Once exposed to the sun, these lateritic soils soon bake into a bricklike material that cannot be cultivated.

The Temperate Deciduous Forest

These regions receive 75–100 cm or more of precipitation each year. Enough water falls on the soil so that much of it passes down to the water table. As it does so, it carries minerals with it. Such soils tend to be acidic and of low and (if unattended) diminishing fertility. Only by regular fertilization and liming (to restore calcium and raise pH) can productive agriculture be carried out in them. In the U.S., the soils east of the Appalachian Mountains tend to be of this sort.

Rmplmnz · 01-04-2015, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

I wish you would post more often.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that was what I was taught as a child growing up on a farm in the 1960's.

I just did a search and this was on top of the page, but I'll read some other ones later.

Soil
The Tropical Rain Forest
The lushness of the jungle biome is somewhat illusory. While productivity is high, the soils themselves tend to be of very poor quality. Because of the high rainfall, nutrients are quickly washed out of the topsoil unless they are incorporated in the forest plants. As plant and animal debris falls to the ground, it is quickly decomposed because of the warmth and moisture there. Thus minerals are found mainly in the forest plants, not in the soil. When the plants are removed and cultivation attempted, the soils quickly lose fertility.
The situation is made worse by the lack of humus (the topsoil may be no thicker than 2 in. [= 5 cm]) and the high iron and aluminum content of most of these soils. Once exposed to the sun, these lateritic soils soon bake into a bricklike material that cannot be cultivated.

The Temperate Deciduous Forest

These regions receive 75–100 cm or more of precipitation each year. Enough water falls on the soil so that much of it passes down to the water table. As it does so, it carries minerals with it. Such soils tend to be acidic and of low and (if unattended) diminishing fertility. Only by regular fertilization and liming (to restore calcium and raise pH) can productive agriculture be carried out in them. In the U.S., the soils east of the Appalachian Mountains tend to be of this sort.

Thanks, that is high praise coming from you! I am amazed by your pics. A friend once told me "You have a maintenance free yard". I can only only speculate that this is because we do not have any grass...lol.

I totally get your reference to growing up and the soils having low fertility. I guess the big difference for us is the amount of leaves we bring in (literally over 2 tons a year). Someone once told me the leaves are nutrient dense as they pull from deep in the roots/soil. Additionally, they degrade very slowly. I thought it was funny within the forest floor definition there was reference to fungi. There is always some strange mushroom/fungi popping up in the garden.

I will look for a "before pic" of the garden (sandy mess) and append this post later.

merce3 · 01-05-2015, 06:15 AM

you learn something new everyday. i always thought plants struggled in rain forests because of the competition for sunlight. i appreciate the quality posts

Rmplmnz · 01-05-2015, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merce3

you learn something new everyday. i always thought plants struggled in rain forests because of the competition for sunlight. i appreciate the quality posts

Rain forests are very dense multi layered complex ecosystems. Our garden is more like organized chaos...lol..as you well recall from your visits:-)

PR-Giants · 01-05-2015, 10:29 AM

A taker one minute, a giver the next.

PR-Giants · 01-05-2015, 10:45 AM

Will be feeding some Dwarf Cubans later today.

Added at the end of the biochar process, these receptacles will turn to a powder in seconds.

Nius · 01-05-2015, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

A taker one minute, a giver the next.

Until what stage of the bunch do you take pups out?

Rmplmnz · 01-05-2015, 12:06 PM

That is some impressive looking "rich dark" soil you have!

merce3 · 01-05-2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

Rain forests are very dense multi layered complex ecosystems. Our garden is more like organized chaos...lol..as you well recall from your visits:-)

oh yeah... i honestly don't know how you do it. i can barely move 5 cu yards of mulch in a week/two let alone all of the amendments you have going into your garden. i am trying to diversify though. one day...

PR-Giants · 01-06-2015, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

That is some impressive looking "rich dark" soil you have!

The "rich dark" looking stuff in that pot are milli-turds.

They crap faster than my bananas can eat, and that makes growing easy.

The thousands of little ovals are fresh milli-turds.

PR-Giants · 01-06-2015, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merce3

you learn something new everyday. i always thought plants struggled in rain forests because of the competition for sunlight. i appreciate the quality posts

I see the differences thousands of times a day, but these photos might make it easier for some to understand.

My farm is terraced into the side of a mountain and the soil levels are visible.

These 3 photos are all on the same terrace and within 10 meters of the "jungles edge" photo.

Grassland soil, 10 meters from the jungles edge.

Jungles edge.

10 meters into the jungle.

Nius · 01-07-2015, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

I see the differences thousands of times a day, but these photos might make it easier for some to understand.

My farm is terraced into the side of a mountain and the soil levels are visible.

These 3 photos are all on the same terrace and within 10 meters of the "jungles edge" photo.

Grassland soil, 10 meters from the jungles edge.

You were not even toning it down! you are indeed growing on rock!

PR-Giants · 01-08-2015, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nius

You were not even toning it down! you are indeed growing on rock!

With reality this difficult there's no need to embellish.

Favorite digging tools.... a Hilti and a generator.

Rmplmnz · 02-02-2015, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

Rain forests are very dense multi layered complex ecosystems. Our garden is more like organized chaos...lol..as you well recall from your visits:-)

Ok, I dug out some old pics...

Before forest floor December 2005

After August 2008 (32 months later)

a.hulva@coxinet.net · 02-03-2015, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rmplmnz

Ok, I dug out some old pics...

Before forest floor December 2005

After August 2008 (32 months later)

Thanks Rmp. Your stuff always looks good.
Looks like very sandy soil? As I have a real red, heavy clay soil. I recently bought a truck load of a very course sand spaded it in as deep as I could and then tilled it as deep as I could. Hopefully this well help out with the clay situation. I plan to put a pretty heavy layer of wood chips over the intire bed.
Any clue what the ideal PH should be for Bananas?

Rmplmnz · 02-03-2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a.hulva@coxinet.net

Thanks Rmp. Your stuff always looks good.
Looks like very sandy soil? As I have a real red, heavy clay soil. I recently bought a truck load of a very course sand spaded it in as deep as I could and then tilled it as deep as I could. Hopefully this well help out with the clay situation. I plan to put a pretty heavy layer of wood chips over the intire bed.
Any clue what the ideal PH should be for Bananas?

Al,

You are correct, heavy layers of sand, then clay then limestone (6 or more feet down). Not sure on PH, we just keep layering and layering!

merce3 · 02-03-2015, 06:29 PM

my new must haves for receiving mulch: a large tarp and a snow shovel. i took down 5 yards in a couple of hours yesterday. now i'm ready for another batch.

servatusprime · 02-03-2015, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merce3

my new must haves for receiving mulch: a large tarp and a snow shovel. i took down 5 yards in a couple of hours yesterday. now i'm ready for another batch.

A snow shovel in Florida! Love it. Where do even by one around here? That could be handy when I get several yards dumped at my house (i wish it was free).

PR-Giants · 02-04-2015, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by servatusprime

A snow shovel in Florida! Love it. Where do even by one around here? That could be handy when I get several yards dumped at my house (i wish it was free).

Look online at Ace or Sears for a barn shovel/grain scoop.

https://www.google.com/search?q=barn...g&ved=0CEIQsAQ

servatusprime · 02-04-2015, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Look online at Ace or Sears for a barn shovel/grain scoop.

https://www.google.com/search?q=barn...g&ved=0CEIQsAQ

Good idea. Thanks.

01-05-2015, 06:15 AM	#23 (permalink)
merce3 Find me on the map! Zone: 9b Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 538 BananaBucks : 72,203 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1,092 Times Was Thanked 1,107 Times in 382 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 257 Times	Re: Advantages of not relying on fertilizers you learn something new everyday. i always thought plants struggled in rain forests because of the competition for sunlight. i appreciate the quality posts __________________ Last edited by merce3 : 01-05-2015 at 06:18 AM.

01-05-2015, 10:29 AM	#25 (permalink)
PR-Giants Commercial Grower Location: Florida & Greater Antilles Find me on the map! Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,686 BananaBucks : 1,273 Feedback: 16 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,942 Times Was Thanked 12,813 Times in 3,760 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,217 Times	Re: Advantages of not relying on fertilizers A taker one minute, a giver the next. __________________ PR-Giants Photo Gallery 15,000+ Varieties

01-05-2015, 10:45 AM	#26 (permalink)
PR-Giants Commercial Grower Location: Florida & Greater Antilles Find me on the map! Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,686 BananaBucks : 1,273 Feedback: 16 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,942 Times Was Thanked 12,813 Times in 3,760 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,217 Times	Re: Advantages of not relying on fertilizers Will be feeding some Dwarf Cubans later today. Added at the end of the biochar process, these receptacles will turn to a powder in seconds. __________________ PR-Giants Photo Gallery 15,000+ Varieties

01-05-2015, 12:06 PM	#28 (permalink)
Rmplmnz Banana Patch Attendent Rmplmnz's Photo Gallery Location: Tampa, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Rmplmnz Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,448 BananaBucks : 128,453 Feedback: 40 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,246 Times Was Thanked 2,348 Times in 636 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 36 Times	Re: Advantages of not relying on fertilizers That is some impressive looking "rich dark" soil you have!

02-03-2015, 06:29 PM	#37 (permalink)
merce3 Find me on the map! Zone: 9b Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 538 BananaBucks : 72,203 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 1,092 Times Was Thanked 1,107 Times in 382 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 257 Times	Re: Advantages of not relying on fertilizers my new must haves for receiving mulch: a large tarp and a snow shovel. i took down 5 yards in a couple of hours yesterday. now i'm ready for another batch. __________________

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