tony palmer

This is a simple question is there a true variant of Musa basjoo known to botanical science?
Would I be right in saying for instance M. basjoo “Sakhalin” is a cultivars and not significantly different to the true form of M.basjoo to be called a variant of the nominate form of basjoo.


I should include subspecies too, does basjoo stand on its own as a species with no true variants or subspecies!!



Thanks
Tony

Gabe15

There are no other described varieties or subspecies, but that does not mean there is not more diversity in the wild that has not been described and published yet. The one other one you may see is M. basjoo var. formosana, but it is actually a variety of M. itinerans.

The horticultural cultivars may be valid, but they would not fall under the category of botanically different varieties.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

Bob

This kind of clears things up in my mind. Being a gardener as opposed to what you're doing it's always a bit confusing. Thanks.

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tony palmer

Thanks Gabe, you have confirmed my suspicions I have never agreed with connection between basjoo and formosana, I always thought the connection was brought about purely on the visual basis of the flowers looking similar, I thought geographically the two species are to far apart without at least the presence of an intermediate to link the two species together and make the suggestion plausible! I’m not convinced with link between formosana and itinerans too I wouldn’t be surprised if formosana wasn’t a distinct species in its own right, like basjoo, although I see there is now some suggestions that basjoo may be connected to the itinerans group.
I was reading somewhere and cant remember were! That a long time ago wild basjoo had a wider distribution in China, wider then it does today and wasn’t limited to Sichuan and a couple of neighbouring province’s so I’m surprised there hasn’t bean more diversity in basjoo documented up to now.

Then I saw this Banana species from cool climate of China, yellow flower

If the pictures are true and they are of the yellow forest banana and its flower, then I think it could very well be a variant or subspecies of basjoo, I would be interested in other peoples opinions of the pictures. The thing that strikes me is basjoo is a big mat-forming banana, but its obvious looking at the pictures the yellow forest banana isn’t, Mark Hall has had this banana for three years or so and he said his hasn’t produced any pups in that time, something not typical of Basjoo a plant that produces pups freely.
My suggested link between the two is based on the picture of the flower but you have to agree it does look very similar to basjoo!! It would be cool if it were a subspecies or variant of basjoo.


Tony

Raules

On a site it seems to me it is a question about wild Musa basjoo that they name yellow flower. Though they write that it breeds seeds, and Musa basjoo breeds basically puppies, seeds forms seldom. I think that at Musa basjoo there are versions. One have very big size psudostem 4-6 metres, others can blossom at height psudostem 1,5 2 metres. At one leaves narrower and are longer, and at others on the contrary the wide. I took some different photos for comparison, on them it is visible distinctions between Musa basjoo. To a photo not mine, I apologise authors of a photo, for their use here.


Your opinion how you think is a difference between these Musa basjoo?

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Tropical agriculturist

Gabe15

That "Yellow Flower" one is not yet published, but as I hear it closer to M. itinerans than M. basjoo, though M. basjoo and M. itinerans are closer related to each other than to other species.

M. basjoo can have vary greatly in height depending on conditions. I have seen them flower anywhere from 5ft to 20ft.

M. basjoo sets seeds normally, but the plant is so common in the nursery trade as pups or tissue cultured plants that there is very little demand for seeds.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

tony palmer

Thanks Gabe I will look forward to when the paper has been published on “yellow flower” whatever it turns out to be it’s a cool looking banana.


Raules, on a resent visit to Kew gardens in London I saw at first hand the difference growing conditions can have on basjoo, in the greenhouse in near perfect conditions there was 3 of them flowering at 4 meters tall, just outside the greenhouse planted in the open there was one flowering at 2 meters that’s about average for the flowering height for basjoo planted out in the UK.




Tony

bikoro child

here is some interesting explanations about musa Basjoo:
The truth about Musa basjoo

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Ivan

tony palmer

Hi Markku, hopefully you are reading this!
Do you have any information about the yellow forest banana, has there been any papers published about it yet?

Banana species from cool climate of China, yellow flower


Thanks,
Tony

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
I have based on my recent studies in China basically to M.basjoo. There are several varieties of it starting from Sichuan's high mountains to the east along Yangzhe river valley.
The M.basjoo variant which was introduced to Japan from China some 900 years ago is a smaller variety which can be seen very often in western countries.
What is coming to yellow bract banana in the picture it is from Hunan Province and is closer to M.itinerans than M.basjoo. I know it from personal communication with Dr. Margraf who passed away a year ago.
There is no M.basjoos in southern China. I know it from my experience after for extensive field studies to China.
What is coming my work with M.basjoo it has not published yet.
There was at Kew ouside of temperature house two M.basjoos which survived from extra cold winter in UK by loosing only their leaves. They were producing new leaves in last May.
Markku.

tony palmer

Hi Markku,
Thanks for the information on the yellow flower, hopefully seed will become available again one day I would sure like to try growing that one.

With regards the different varieties of basjoo in the wild that’s very interesting and I look forward to reading about your findings.

It was the coldest winter in 20 years in the UK last winter but lots of people reported the pseudostems surviving on their Basjoos, likewise some said the P-stem did not survive.
I live 300 miles north of Kew/London in a place called Hull Yorkshire and lots of the P-stems survived here too, but from past experience if the temperature goes lower than
–8/9centigrade, the p-stem doesn’t survive and turns to mush, although the corm will survive at much lower temps.

Here is a picture of a Basjoo flowering in my garden.


My mane interest is in cold tolerant Musas and I live in hope that one day I can grow one of the hardy varieties of Yunnanensis or Balbisianas in my garden.
Markku, do you have any information regarding M.balbisiana in Tibet?


Thanks,
Tony

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
I have not heard anything about M.balbisiana in Tibet. However, in according to my colleagues there are some unidentified wild bananas in those valleys where the climate is quite warm. I addition there are M.sikkimensis in some slopes of Himalaya. Most of these areas one can go only by walking several days to one week so these places are difficult to reach. Dr. King described in 19th century some wild species from there with drawings but identification is quite difficult today as they should compare to living plants.
Markku.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
Thanks for your information and the nice photo. I forgot to mention that TianZi is most probably stopped the seed dealing after Dr. Margraf passed away. At least I have not heard anything from them since.
Markku.

tony palmer

Hi Markku,
A couple of years ago I was reading on the Internet about a botanical expedition to the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, in that report they made reference to seeing M.balbisiana not sure if they saw it on the Plateau though but they was in Tibet..
I sent an E-mail to one of the members of that expedition a Dr. Ge, to ask if they had collected any seeds and he replied to say there weren’t any seeds on them at the time.
I never asked if he had collected Herbaria specimens though.

I think Dr.Ge could be, Professor Xue-jun Ge of the South China Botanical Garden Guangzhou, so you may know him.

Thanks,
Tony

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
Yes, I know Prof. Ge very well. Actually the last expedition was done together with him. Also some previous mission too when Guandong, Hainan and Hunan provinces are concerned. They did not collect any Musa specimens either.
Yes, he has been in Tibet but he cannot remember the wild bananas from there except Musa aurantiaca.
I was working in Xishuangbanna Tropical Botanical Garden in 2006-2008 and with them we studied the whole Yunnan and partly Guangzhi provinces for wild bananas.
Markku

tony palmer

Hi Markku,
I’ve had a look on the net for that report on Tibet but I cant find it any more, (and my memory is not as good as it use to be :-) there was some reference to a member of that expedition becoming unwell after a insect bite and that may have been Prof.Ge?
Just goes to show working in remote areas can be very dangerous!!

When you report your findings on Basjoo in Sichuan and Yunnan, will you show pictures to point out the differences between them Markku.


Thanks,
Tony

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
I can ask the report from Prof. Ge. Many other my friends from China have been in botanical expedition in Tibet as well.

I will write the report from my discoveries from China in a month or two. I have not decided yet what scientific publication I am using for that article. Some of them are charging from color photos and I don't like to pay for that. With some of them one has to queue up for years to get article published. Let's see, there is many possibilities.
Markku.

Markku Hakkinen

Hi Tony,
I asked from Prof. Ge about the report and he said that he has not written any report from his Tibet mission. It must be another Ge from China.
Markku.

tony palmer

Hi Markku,
With regards the different varieties of basjoo most people in Europe and the US think there micropropagated clone originates from that basjoo first introduced to Europe from Japan by Veitch in 1888 but I’m not so sure about that now.
It has been said basjoo produced from micropropagation tend to sucker profusely, a probable carryover effect of the synthetic cytokinin used in the micropropagation process.
But with all this talk about a dwarf form that suckers profusely in Yunnan and Japan they sound like the micropropagated clones available to us today and not the Veitch clone.
You can still see large mats in the UK of the Veitch clone at the Ventnor Botanic garden on the Isle of Wight and Overbecks garden in Devon, they only occasionally produce suckers and can be some distance from the plant, the pseudostem is around 4m high, sometimes more.
With the rise in popularity in Exotic Gardening in the UK the first micropropagated basjoo offered for sale were done by Angus White of Architectural plants in Sussex around 1990, and most basjoo for sale today will be descendents of them.
The material he used came from Guildford in Surrey growing at the back of an old green house, it had been there for many years and its origins are not known!
The resulting plants from that micropropagation offset profusely and dependent on growing condition flowers on average on a 2m pseudostem.

It does beg the question where was that basjoo in Guildford originally from, Yunnan or Japan?

Another dwarf basjoo that was micropropagated by jean-luc of Belgium and suckers freely is the “Sakhalin” basjoo.
I have one that was collected on the island of Sakhalin in 2007 by Allan (musa monkey) a member of this forum; it too suckers freely and has never been through
micropropagation.

It was Dr.Ge that I emailed and not Prof.Ge so my mistake Markku.

Thanks,
Tony

Alexander

The yellow banana on 'Natureproducts, looks to me to be a real Musa basjoo.

About M. babisiana in Tibet, there are subtropical areas there like the Bramhaputra valley, where it could grow well. You see it a lot in the warmer parts of the Himalaya till arround 1250 meters or so. Not all of Tibet is cold and on a high plateau!

Alexander