Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

If you've bought a TC banana in the past that was either correctly labeled or mislabeled, feel free to post pictures in this thread! Let us know where you got it from! TC plants are very easy to mix up, and if you got the short end of the stick, it's hard to pinpoint where things went wrong.

I bought an Ice Cream and California Gold from Greenearth Publishing in 2014. From what I'm reading on this forum, the tissue cultured Ice Cream from Agristarts is likely Namwah, and the California gold might be either a williams or orinoco (not sure if Agristarts is the source for this TC california gold).


My plants are still babies, so I can't say they're fake just yet. While many in the Bay Area, CA aren't able to get bananas to fruit because our temperatures are too cool, my hope is that the giant cement wall behind them will help radiate enough heat to make things happen and protect them during the winter (see pics below). I'd be interested to see if any of you notice characteristics in these plants pictured below that would suggest whether or not they are the real deal.



Here's my TC "California Gold" from Green Earth Publishing Co:



Here's my TC "ice cream" from Green Earth Publishing Co. Notice the red edging on the leaves:



Here's a TC raja puri that I bought at a farmer's market south of San Francisco, CA. These were already hardened off and established in 5" pots, and for some reason, my gut says these might be the real deal. What do you think? (edit: 5/1/17: ID'ed as american goldfinger)


New leaf opened up on my TC "raja puri." Even if this isn't the real deal, it's a really beautiful plant. It's amazing how huge the leaves can get with such a relatively small p-stem:


Purchased this one as Veinte Cohol from the same farmer's market mentioned above. Again, my gut says this might be the real deal, any ideas? (edit: ID'ed as hi color mini, plant was culled)



and a group shot. From top to bottom, all TC starts: Veinte Cohol, Ice Cream, California Gold, Raja Puri, and Raja Puri again (edit 5/1/17: zero of the plants that I thought I purchased turned out to be what they were sold as. from top to bottom: hi color mini, rajapuri, williams, american goldfinger, and american goldfinger!)

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Cant recall if my Veinte Cohol had wine spots, but the pup I separated recently does not, but if its the real deal, it will have black blotches all over the pstems when it gets older. California gold is a Orinoco type, and Orinoco has no wine spots at any stage. Icecream (Usually Namwah) Does have the red edging, at least mine did anyway, but so do a lot of others in the juvenile form, Orinoco does for example, but not as bold, and it goes away. That's a cool way to plant them.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Your Raja Puri looks like mine, and about the same size, so they are probably the real deal.

Great use of your micro climate!

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Here's my Dwarf Orinoco from Ebay lol
From the pics I've seen it's correct!

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

The pups I took from this "veinte Cohol" plant have even more wine spots on them, will take pictures shortly. Thanks for all the tips! Perhaps my "ice cream" isn't an orinoco since it does have wine spots...

The raja puri has long leaves, and glad to hear you think it's the real deal Red Sky

37.667910-thanks for posting pics of your dwarf orinoco, that's very helpful! Now I'm really scratching my head as to what this supposed "ice cream" is....does Namwah have winespots at any stage, and does it have a slight "blue" hue to it when compared to other bananas?

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

That does indeed look like Dwarf Orinoco.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Here is a pic of my Viente Cohol pup, I just separated it a couple of weeks ago, but it has been grown in full sun the whole time as I got a good root ball with it, no wine spots, note the black spots starting to appear on the pstem already. The leaves are also thinner. The mother plant matches the photo from the Bananas wiki perfectly. It is very annoying when the sellers send you the wrong plant I do know that. I have tried twice now to get a Raja Puri, and hopefully the new plant will be the real thing.
My pup note dark markings already



Bananas wiki photo, matches my mother plant.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Thank you Siege2050! It's really impossible to get this kind of information elsewhere, and I appreciate all of your help! The only thing my suspect "veinte cohol" plant has in common is the slightly long leaves (like raja puri)...hopefully it's not a dwarf cavendish at this point (difficult to fruit here outdoors in Northern California), which has really fat, wide leaves. I'll keep an eye out for those little black spots and will keep everyone posted.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Not all mix ups are bad, I am very fond of this little confusing plant. It was the first attempt at Raja Puri which it definitely is not lol, I would say Musa High Color Mini but its not that simple. It started out as variegated half white, and half green with very few wine spots. Then the main variegated pstem died from cold, and the pups started emerging like this, no white variegation but very heavy wine spots. It also differs from other peoples description of High Color mini in that it is not frail, or weak, and it grows quite nicely in full burning sun up to 100F degrees, and has already given me 2 pups. I just noticed a third is sprouting today. I like it as it actually appears like a Full grown banana in miniature, not stunted looking like Super Dwarf cavendish. Its not Musa Zebrina as the leaf backs are solid green, but I like it a lot, and am trying to produce a little colony of them to grow in an indoor garden. The older leaves do fade, but at about the same rate as they do in Zebrina. I am not sure if its High Color Mini, or another similar mutation, it was definitely white variegated at first so even more confusing.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

OMG, that looks very similar to the "veinte cohol" pups I have!

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Lol

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

You might be the proud owner of Hi Color Mini lol

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Are those roots I see running out from the plant?

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

It seems to be the consensus that these tissue cultured Ice Cream plants are in the Pisang Awak subgroup. Pisang Awak is a synonym for Namwah. I am not sure they are the exact same clone, but they do seem to be closely related. I hope to be more certain when mine mature in a couple years, as I have the tissue cultured Ice Cream, and a reliably sourced Tall Namwah.

As mentioned above, California Gold appears to be similar to Dwarf Orinoco. These belong to the ABB genetic group, so they should not have wine spots at any stage.

Every form of Cavendish that I have seen has had wine spots at some stage. They are in the AAA genetic group. Since Cavendish plants are so commonly sold as houseplants and ornamentals throughout the country, I think they are the banana you usually get when you get a "nursery mixup" plant. When you get the wrong plant, you are likely to get the most common one. That has been my experience.

This plant looks about right to me. I do not see any wine spots on the leaves, but I am not great with colors. True Ice Cream (Ney Mannan subgroup) and tissue cultured Ice Cream (Pisang Awak subgroup) are both in the ABB genetic group, and do not have wine spots. The red edging on the leaves that you describe is consistent with the tissue cultured Pisang Awak subgroup "Ice Cream". Look at the area where the petioles join the pseudostem. ABB petiole margins clasp the pseudostem, while Cavendish type plants have margins that flare outward.

I agree that this looks correct. Raja Puri is an AAB genetic group plant, and mine has faint wine spots when young. Brazilian is also in the AAB genetic group, and it also has the faint wine spots when young. I do not know if this is true for other AAB plants, as I have not grown them.

As mentioned above, Veinte Cohol has dark blotches on the pseudostem. I have grown it from tissue culture to fruiting, and it shows no wine blotches at any stage.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

"Are those roots I see running out from the plant?
__________________
Al"

No, that's part of the old dead leaves I've left on as compost.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Glen-thanks for sharing your observations regarding VC. Can anyone else confirm that Veinte Cohol never produces wine spots under any circumstances?

Some more pictures of the "veinte Cohol" plant sold to me by Green Earth Publishing:


"Veinte Cohol" stem, I found some black spots-are these what you guys are talking about?


some more "Veinte Cohol" black spots on the stem:





Okay, so here are the pups from the supposed Veinte Cohol plant pictured above in this thread. One important thing to know is that the VC start I received had 4-5 pups on it even though it was only 6" tall and just hardened off. These weren't separate plants, they were all attached to the base of the main starter plant and were probably induced by hormones added in vitro. Notice how the wine spots on these are extreme compared to the mother plant:




Can anyone see characteristics that would confirm this isn't VC, or any characteristics to suggest this might still be VC?

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

After seeing those photographs, I am confident that your plant is not Veinte Cohol.

I have grown Veinte Cohol from two sources for several years, and I am very particular in the identification of my plants. As I have received Cavendish plants instead of what I ordered before, I always watch very carefully for identifiable characteristics, and I have never seen even one faint wine colored splotch on the leaf of any Veinte Cohol tissue culture plant or pup. Here are some photographs that show what small Veinte Cohol tissue cultures should look like:
http://www.bananas.org/f3/veinte-coh...ale-19431.html
http://www.eldontropicals.com/i/MUSA_VEINTE_COHOL.jpg

The blotches on the pseudostem of Veinte Cohol tend to be larger areas, not small speckles. They develop more as the plant gets larger. See these photographs:
Banana Gallery - kluai hom thong son
Banana Gallery - Veinte Cohol pup

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

I wonder if selling mis-labeled bananas is an industry-wide trend? So far, out of the 3 different sources that I acquired TC bananas from (local farmer's market, Green Earth Publishing, and Florida Hill Nursery), none of them so far have proven to sell correctly labeled plants (except maybe the raja puri that I got from the Farmer's market). I'm sure it's different when you order TC plants from members here, but the commercial companies seem to either receive mislabeled plants from their source, or they try to market one variety by labeling it with various desirable names. Seems like a perfect scheme since it's hard to prove, and judging by the traffic on this forum, there's a lot of buyers.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Only if members actually TC the plants from known plants do you have any guarantee. Agristarts and other TC factories apparently grow what they want and sell them as what they want them to be which means someone who purchased one of their specimens years ago innocently sells you a Raji Puri that's really a dreaded DC.

I know people think I'm strange but, having raised figs (you really don't want to go there because IME only Brown Turkeys are reliably labeled), I am just collecting bananas from people who grow them and say they're yummy. I suspect I'll end up with many duplicates but perhaps also some unexpected jewels. We'll see. I'm loathe to trust anyone's word as to what pups they're selling because, odds are, they got their mama plant from a supplier of TCs and that's their ID program. I'm hoping, as I discovered with ficus, that someone smuggled in a really good plant and has grown it for years because it produces worthy fruit which I'll also raise.

Again, we'll see.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Kat2:I think a lot of what you say makes sense with regards to tissue cultured banana commerce. On the other hand, many members have photo-documented their experiences and fruited their bananas. This serves as proof that they have "the real deal". In that case, it's highly likely they'll send you the right plant, especially if they have a solid reputation here too.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Absolutely someone who has grown a plant to fruiting will send you the real deal or, at the least, be able to tell you what they think they have; resellers of TCs just cannot know the parentage. I can pick up TC DCs any day at the big box stores; it's really hard to miss those splotches. Having moved to where there's a banana plant on every corner (not really), I'm having fun growing my mysteries which I hope members here will ID when they're a bit older and don't look so bedraggled.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

some more mystery tissue cultured plants, this time from Florida Hill Nursery. I regret to hear these guys have a very poor reputation, perhaps acquiring these desirable banana cultivars was too good to be true! Well, we'll see, maybe I got 3 orinocos instead of 3 DC's, fingers crossed! Also, if you have plants from them, BEWARE: the underside of the leaves came INFESTED with spider mites! Not much of a problem outdoors, but it can be a huge issue indoors.


With any of the tissue cultured plants pictured below, if you see any obvious traits that suggest it could be "real" or traits that suggest that it's not real, feel free to let us know!

First up is what I'm hoping is goldfinger:


notice the red edging on the petiole. P-stem seems to be very green:


Some faint wine blotches on the leaves:


Birds eye view of the supposed Goldfinger:










Next up, we have, fingers crossed, Dwarf Brazilian. Please don't tell me this is a dwarf cavendish, pleeeeeease!!! :)


This plant is starting to look like my fake california gold:








Last but not least, we have "Raja Pisang":


Very colorful P-stem:


Some faint wine splotches:


Interested to see what you guys think!

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Meizzwang, your dwarf brazillian looks EXACTLY like my tissue culture blue java I bought from GreenEarth back in June. Im a little upset after seeing this thread because I'm a first time banana plant owner. I also bought four of these plants because I love vanilla ice cream and figured it would be delicious. I even read a few reviews praising GreenEarth so I thought I was making a good purchase.

I would post pictures but I cant for the life of me get the upload to work from my tablet. It says completed and successful but I always end up with nothing in my album.

This really sucks because I dont know if I can put anymore banas in my yard. It was a struggle getting the wife to agree to the four I bought. On a side note, can anyone vouch for the blue java that Going Bananas is selling? If not Going Bananas, is anyone able to tell me where I can get the real thing or is anyone open to selling one from their collection?

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Crazy Banana, a member here, has Blue Java or did. Someone closer to you might also but they won't know unless you to edit your profile to show your location and growing zone.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Thanks, Kat2. I made the edits like you suggested.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

You live in FL and your wife doesn't want more banana plants? :eek: This Yankee transplant is enchanted by them and I don't even like bananas. :ha:

Seriously, check out Banana Plants for Sale & Auction section and/or post your request in Banana Plants Wanted.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

some picture updates, photos taken 8/30/15.

FHN's Musa 'Goldfinger,' same plant pictured above but about 2 weeks later, acclimated to outdoor/full sun conditions. These really grow quickly once you harden them off:



Greenearth Publishing's "california gold" which many suspect isn't the real deal:



Greenearth's Musa 'Ice Cream,' which is growing very slowly, maybe because the corm wasn't planted at the proper depth:



Here's what was sold to me as "veinte Cohol" @ a local farmer's market, but turns out it's likely Hi color mini. Check out the wine marks on the water sprout's leaves. This is also a pretty slow grower:


And a group shot. The 2 bigger plants near the bottom of the steps are rajapuri (edit:plant flowered in July, verified not rajapuri. Still don't know what it is). Now those have grown crazy fast, almost doubling in size in about a month:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Here's the same exact plants almost a month and a half later. We had some scorching heat waves and an Indian summer this year in Northern California...normally, it's pretty cold by now, but to this day, it still feels like summer and we're still having relatively warm nights. It's amazing to see how fast these plants grow, even under somewhat "marginal" conditions for bananas. Photos taken 10/10/15:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

updated photo of the banana patch, taken 11/8/15. It was warm like summer until the first week of November, and it's been cold since. The bananas have stopped growing and fortunately no signs of any cold damage (yet). It drops into the high 40's at night.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Thank you for doing a great job of posting before and after pics. Your trees/plants look fantastic. Beds are very nice. Good job!:woohoonaner:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Thank you!

It's now Feb. 19th, 2016 and here's how they look after being beaten up by many heavy rain storms and exposed to a few days of freezing temperatures. It's surprising that the Raja Puris (biggest plants in foreground...edit:verified these are not rajapuri, flowered july 2016. Still don't know what they are!) didn't completely die back! With El Nino hitting California hard this year, we've had a relatively warm winter, so that's been a plus for these bananas. Fingers crossed they produce this year! One of the varieties that we think is "hi color mini" completely died back under identical conditions to the rest (it's the plant at the very top of the staircase, looks like some stubs). Photos taken 2/19/16:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Your plants look a lot better than mine in Southern California. Hope you get some fruits this year.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

I don't believe there are any TC propagators (incl. AgriStarts) that produce or sells "California Gold". Consequently, it is likely that someone in your supply chain deliberately lied about the breed of that TC.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Crazy Banana: thank you! Just out of curiosity, have you had some cooler than normal temperatures in S. California, or has the rain been beating up the plants? I was under the impression that you guys can get away with little to no frost damage most years down there?

Richard: for sure, Green Earth Publishing Co's "California Gold" isn't the real deal, even without knowing that Cali gold hasn't been TC'ed. For one, the plant I have (pictured above, it's the third "cluster" from the bottom) is less cold hardy than the raja puris (edit: plant verified as NOT rajapuri, flowered in July 2016, still don't know what it is). Most of the leaves turned somewhat brown, and even the outer petioles of the p-stem turned brown from the cold. This plant was fertilized and watered in the exact same way as the Raja Puris, and they're in identical conditions. Over a period of about 3 weeks during November they were all slightly nutrient stressed and slowly received less water to help prepare them for the cold.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

We live next to a canyon that sucks in some cold temperatures and therefore creates a unique microclimate, even though we live close to the beach. But a couple morning hours down to 28F did the damage to the leaves of my plants. All p-stems are fine.
A few years ago I probably would have freaked out and used frost protection, but it is way too much work or not feasible especially on the taller plants.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Southern California has many microclimates. Temperatures and rainfall can vary widely between local areas. For example here in San Diego County:

Temperatures and Precipitation - Sept. 1 2015 to Feb. 19 2016

VISTA (my locale)
Min 34°F, Max 101°F, 9 inches precipitation.

BAY PARK (crazybanana)
Min 40°F, Max 90°F, 5 inches precipitation.

EMERALD HILLS (pitangadiego)
Min 36°F, Max 110°F, 12 inches precipitation.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

My "Cali gold" from green earth turned out to obviously be a dwarf cavendish. I also ordered an "Apple" from them that turned out to have red leaves, and a "gold finger" that ended up being a super dwarf something. All got whisked off to moms in south Florida (she doesn't care what they are). This was definitely my learn-the-hard-way about only getting plants from trustable forum members. Sucks,too, because all the plants from green earth were really high quality at a great price.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

From what I've heard to-date, it seems that "Green Earth" is a robust reseller of plants but unfortunately has a problem with authenticity of cultivars.

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

Yes, I learned that the hard way. They were great plants that grew well but only the gods knew what they were. Lesson learned!

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

So here they are again several months later. It's been warm, cold, warm, cold, cold, , and then we're supposed to get a heat wave next week! We've had several windstorms this year, which are very unusual for this area.

In the foreground is raja puri (edit: plant flowered July 2016 and verified NOT rajapuri...still don't know what it is) standing at around 7' tall (only counting the length of the p-stem), but no sign of flowering. I was hoping to get an early flower so the bananas would be ripe before the cold season hits. However, if it does flower this year, the bananas will either have to survive this winter which is supposed to freeze a lot, or abort the fruit (assuming raja puri takes 7-9 months to mature). It's been 3 long years since the plant was first acquired, hopefully something happens! Photos taken 6/17/16:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

What ever they are, they look great. I love the tidiness of your set up. :2140::2140::2140:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

From Florida Hill Nursery, last year I foolishly purchased (well, it was labeled these) dwarf brazilian, goldfinger, and pisang raja. All three grew very strong and were overwintered in the garage, potted. They were root bound in a 6" pot, and barely watered prior to going "dormant." Out of all 3, only the "goldfinger" survived, the rest rotted despite not being watered all winter long/kept in the dark/kept around 50F.

So here's Florida Hill Nursery's "Goldfinger" or FHIA-1. I'm still rolling the dice, as this company is notorious for sending the wrong cultivar, and I can't remember a single post where anyone got what they ordered (although someone may have?). In time, we'll find out if this is the real deal. This plant is very compact and short much like dwarf namwah when it's at this stage....but who knows? photos taken 7/21/16:


red pigments line the petiole canals:


Some pinkish colors in the p-stem:


For what it's worth, the underside of a leaf:

Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!
 

It looks the same as my TC agristarts "American" Goldfinger. Congrats at least you got the correct plant you ordered!!