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Banana Identification Mystery Nanner? This is where you can get help to identify your banana plants. Upload some pics to your gallery and post a thread and let everyone know as much info that you have of the plant.


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Old 08-10-2015, 12:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

If you've bought a TC banana in the past that was either correctly labeled or mislabeled, feel free to post pictures in this thread! Let us know where you got it from! TC plants are very easy to mix up, and if you got the short end of the stick, it's hard to pinpoint where things went wrong.

I bought an Ice Cream and California Gold from Greenearth Publishing in 2014. From what I'm reading on this forum, the tissue cultured Ice Cream from Agristarts is likely Namwah, and the California gold might be either a williams or orinoco (not sure if Agristarts is the source for this TC california gold).


My plants are still babies, so I can't say they're fake just yet. While many in the Bay Area, CA aren't able to get bananas to fruit because our temperatures are too cool, my hope is that the giant cement wall behind them will help radiate enough heat to make things happen and protect them during the winter (see pics below). I'd be interested to see if any of you notice characteristics in these plants pictured below that would suggest whether or not they are the real deal.



Here's my TC "California Gold" from Green Earth Publishing Co:



Here's my TC "ice cream" from Green Earth Publishing Co. Notice the red edging on the leaves:



Here's a TC raja puri that I bought at a farmer's market south of San Francisco, CA. These were already hardened off and established in 5" pots, and for some reason, my gut says these might be the real deal. What do you think? (edit: 5/1/17: ID'ed as american goldfinger)


New leaf opened up on my TC "raja puri." Even if this isn't the real deal, it's a really beautiful plant. It's amazing how huge the leaves can get with such a relatively small p-stem:


Purchased this one as Veinte Cohol from the same farmer's market mentioned above. Again, my gut says this might be the real deal, any ideas? (edit: ID'ed as hi color mini, plant was culled)



and a group shot. From top to bottom, all TC starts: Veinte Cohol, Ice Cream, California Gold, Raja Puri, and Raja Puri again (edit 5/1/17: zero of the plants that I thought I purchased turned out to be what they were sold as. from top to bottom: hi color mini, rajapuri, williams, american goldfinger, and american goldfinger!)

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Old 08-10-2015, 08:06 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Cant recall if my Veinte Cohol had wine spots, but the pup I separated recently does not, but if its the real deal, it will have black blotches all over the pstems when it gets older. California gold is a Orinoco type, and Orinoco has no wine spots at any stage. Icecream (Usually Namwah) Does have the red edging, at least mine did anyway, but so do a lot of others in the juvenile form, Orinoco does for example, but not as bold, and it goes away. That's a cool way to plant them.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Your Raja Puri looks like mine, and about the same size, so they are probably the real deal.

Great use of your micro climate!
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Old 08-11-2015, 10:06 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Here's my Dwarf Orinoco from Ebay lol
From the pics I've seen it's correct!

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Old 08-11-2015, 11:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by siege2050 View Post
Cant recall if my Veinte Cohol had wine spots, but the pup I separated recently does not, but if its the real deal, it will have black blotches all over the pstems when it gets older. California gold is a Orinoco type, and Orinoco has no wine spots at any stage. Icecream (Usually Namwah) Does have the red edging, at least mine did anyway, but so do a lot of others in the juvenile form, Orinoco does for example, but not as bold, and it goes away. That's a cool way to plant them.
The pups I took from this "veinte Cohol" plant have even more wine spots on them, will take pictures shortly. Thanks for all the tips! Perhaps my "ice cream" isn't an orinoco since it does have wine spots...

The raja puri has long leaves, and glad to hear you think it's the real deal Red Sky

37.667910-thanks for posting pics of your dwarf orinoco, that's very helpful! Now I'm really scratching my head as to what this supposed "ice cream" is....does Namwah have winespots at any stage, and does it have a slight "blue" hue to it when compared to other bananas?

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Old 08-11-2015, 12:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

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Originally Posted by 37.667910 View Post
Here's my Dwarf Orinoco from Ebay lol
From the pics I've seen it's correct!

That does indeed look like Dwarf Orinoco.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:48 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Here is a pic of my Viente Cohol pup, I just separated it a couple of weeks ago, but it has been grown in full sun the whole time as I got a good root ball with it, no wine spots, note the black spots starting to appear on the pstem already. The leaves are also thinner. The mother plant matches the photo from the Bananas wiki perfectly. It is very annoying when the sellers send you the wrong plant I do know that. I have tried twice now to get a Raja Puri, and hopefully the new plant will be the real thing.
My pup note dark markings already



Bananas wiki photo, matches my mother plant.
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Old 08-11-2015, 12:53 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Thank you Siege2050! It's really impossible to get this kind of information elsewhere, and I appreciate all of your help! The only thing my suspect "veinte cohol" plant has in common is the slightly long leaves (like raja puri)...hopefully it's not a dwarf cavendish at this point (difficult to fruit here outdoors in Northern California), which has really fat, wide leaves. I'll keep an eye out for those little black spots and will keep everyone posted.
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Old 08-11-2015, 03:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Not all mix ups are bad, I am very fond of this little confusing plant. It was the first attempt at Raja Puri which it definitely is not lol, I would say Musa High Color Mini but its not that simple. It started out as variegated half white, and half green with very few wine spots. Then the main variegated pstem died from cold, and the pups started emerging like this, no white variegation but very heavy wine spots. It also differs from other peoples description of High Color mini in that it is not frail, or weak, and it grows quite nicely in full burning sun up to 100F degrees, and has already given me 2 pups. I just noticed a third is sprouting today. I like it as it actually appears like a Full grown banana in miniature, not stunted looking like Super Dwarf cavendish. Its not Musa Zebrina as the leaf backs are solid green, but I like it a lot, and am trying to produce a little colony of them to grow in an indoor garden. The older leaves do fade, but at about the same rate as they do in Zebrina. I am not sure if its High Color Mini, or another similar mutation, it was definitely white variegated at first so even more confusing.

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Old 08-11-2015, 03:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

OMG, that looks very similar to the "veinte cohol" pups I have!
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Old 08-11-2015, 04:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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OMG, that looks very similar to the "veinte cohol" pups I have!
Lol
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Old 08-11-2015, 05:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

You might be the proud owner of Hi Color Mini lol
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Old 08-11-2015, 11:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 37.667910 View Post
Here's my Dwarf Orinoco from Ebay lol
From the pics I've seen it's correct!

Are those roots I see running out from the plant?
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
I bought an Ice Cream and California Gold from Greenearth Publishing in 2014. From what I'm reading on this forum, the tissue cultured Ice Cream from Agristarts is likely Namwah, and the California gold might be either a williams or orinoco (not sure if Agristarts is the source for this TC california gold).
It seems to be the consensus that these tissue cultured Ice Cream plants are in the Pisang Awak subgroup. Pisang Awak is a synonym for Namwah. I am not sure they are the exact same clone, but they do seem to be closely related. I hope to be more certain when mine mature in a couple years, as I have the tissue cultured Ice Cream, and a reliably sourced Tall Namwah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
Here's my TC "California Gold" from Green Earth Publishing Co:
As mentioned above, California Gold appears to be similar to Dwarf Orinoco. These belong to the ABB genetic group, so they should not have wine spots at any stage.

Every form of Cavendish that I have seen has had wine spots at some stage. They are in the AAA genetic group. Since Cavendish plants are so commonly sold as houseplants and ornamentals throughout the country, I think they are the banana you usually get when you get a "nursery mixup" plant. When you get the wrong plant, you are likely to get the most common one. That has been my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
Here's my TC "ice cream" from Green Earth Publishing Co. Notice the red edging on the leaves:
This plant looks about right to me. I do not see any wine spots on the leaves, but I am not great with colors. True Ice Cream (Ney Mannan subgroup) and tissue cultured Ice Cream (Pisang Awak subgroup) are both in the ABB genetic group, and do not have wine spots. The red edging on the leaves that you describe is consistent with the tissue cultured Pisang Awak subgroup "Ice Cream". Look at the area where the petioles join the pseudostem. ABB petiole margins clasp the pseudostem, while Cavendish type plants have margins that flare outward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
Here's a TC raja puri that I bought at a farmer's market south of San Francisco, CA. These were already hardened off and established in 5" pots, and for some reason, my gut says these might be the real deal. What do you think?
I agree that this looks correct. Raja Puri is an AAB genetic group plant, and mine has faint wine spots when young. Brazilian is also in the AAB genetic group, and it also has the faint wine spots when young. I do not know if this is true for other AAB plants, as I have not grown them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
Purchased this one as Veinte Cohol from the same farmer's market mentioned above. Again, my gut says this might be the real deal, any ideas?
As mentioned above, Veinte Cohol has dark blotches on the pseudostem. I have grown it from tissue culture to fruiting, and it shows no wine blotches at any stage.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:40 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

"Are those roots I see running out from the plant?
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No, that's part of the old dead leaves I've left on as compost.
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Old 08-12-2015, 12:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Glen-thanks for sharing your observations regarding VC. Can anyone else confirm that Veinte Cohol never produces wine spots under any circumstances?

Some more pictures of the "veinte Cohol" plant sold to me by Green Earth Publishing:


"Veinte Cohol" stem, I found some black spots-are these what you guys are talking about?


some more "Veinte Cohol" black spots on the stem:





Okay, so here are the pups from the supposed Veinte Cohol plant pictured above in this thread. One important thing to know is that the VC start I received had 4-5 pups on it even though it was only 6" tall and just hardened off. These weren't separate plants, they were all attached to the base of the main starter plant and were probably induced by hormones added in vitro. Notice how the wine spots on these are extreme compared to the mother plant:




Can anyone see characteristics that would confirm this isn't VC, or any characteristics to suggest this might still be VC?

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Old 08-12-2015, 10:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

After seeing those photographs, I am confident that your plant is not Veinte Cohol.

I have grown Veinte Cohol from two sources for several years, and I am very particular in the identification of my plants. As I have received Cavendish plants instead of what I ordered before, I always watch very carefully for identifiable characteristics, and I have never seen even one faint wine colored splotch on the leaf of any Veinte Cohol tissue culture plant or pup. Here are some photographs that show what small Veinte Cohol tissue cultures should look like:
Veinte Cohol Banana Plants for sale
http://www.eldontropicals.com/i/MUSA_VEINTE_COHOL.jpg

The blotches on the pseudostem of Veinte Cohol tend to be larger areas, not small speckles. They develop more as the plant gets larger. See these photographs:
Banana Gallery - kluai hom thong son
Banana Gallery - Veinte Cohol pup
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

I wonder if selling mis-labeled bananas is an industry-wide trend? So far, out of the 3 different sources that I acquired TC bananas from (local farmer's market, Green Earth Publishing, and Florida Hill Nursery), none of them so far have proven to sell correctly labeled plants (except maybe the raja puri that I got from the Farmer's market). I'm sure it's different when you order TC plants from members here, but the commercial companies seem to either receive mislabeled plants from their source, or they try to market one variety by labeling it with various desirable names. Seems like a perfect scheme since it's hard to prove, and judging by the traffic on this forum, there's a lot of buyers.
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Old 08-12-2015, 11:18 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meizzwang View Post
I wonder if selling mis-labeled bananas is an industry-wide trend? So far, out of the 3 different sources that I acquired TC bananas from (local farmer's market, Green Earth Publishing, and Florida Hill Nursery), none of them so far have proven to sell correctly labeled plants (except maybe the raja puri that I got from the Farmer's market). I'm sure it's different when you order TC plants from members here, but the commercial companies seem to either receive mislabeled plants from their source, or they try to market one variety by labeling it with various desirable names. Seems like a perfect scheme since it's hard to prove, and judging by the traffic on this forum, there's a lot of buyers.
Only if members actually TC the plants from known plants do you have any guarantee. Agristarts and other TC factories apparently grow what they want and sell them as what they want them to be which means someone who purchased one of their specimens years ago innocently sells you a Raji Puri that's really a dreaded DC.

I know people think I'm strange but, having raised figs (you really don't want to go there because IME only Brown Turkeys are reliably labeled), I am just collecting bananas from people who grow them and say they're yummy. I suspect I'll end up with many duplicates but perhaps also some unexpected jewels. We'll see. I'm loathe to trust anyone's word as to what pups they're selling because, odds are, they got their mama plant from a supplier of TCs and that's their ID program. I'm hoping, as I discovered with ficus, that someone smuggled in a really good plant and has grown it for years because it produces worthy fruit which I'll also raise.

Again, we'll see.
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Old 08-13-2015, 11:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fake Ice Cream, Fake California Gold:show us your TC Bananas!

Kat2:I think a lot of what you say makes sense with regards to tissue cultured banana commerce. On the other hand, many members have photo-documented their experiences and fruited their bananas. This serves as proof that they have "the real deal". In that case, it's highly likely they'll send you the right plant, especially if they have a solid reputation here too.
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