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SOCALROCKER
04-01-2008, 11:48 AM
It is a mystery causing heated debate in the world of beekeeping: What's wrong with the bees? Why are they suddenly and without warning leaving their colonies -- and disappearing almost overnight -- by the millions in the United States, Canada and Europe?
Nationwide, there are 2.4 million bee colonies that are used in agriculture to pollinate everything from almonds to fruits to flowering plants. Beekeepers estimate that 600,000, about 25 percent of the colonies, have been affected by the mysterious disappearance.
The U.S. Department of Agriculture reports that 27 states from New York to California are now affected by the bee mystery.California almond growers may have the most to worry about. Pollination of California's vast almond groves is the main event of beekeeping nationwide. It takes about one million colonies of bees to pollinate the almond trees; in total that's about 30 billion bees -- many of them trucked in from across the country.

Ice cream maker Haagen-Dazs is donating $$$ to the University of California, Davis, to research a decline in the bee population.
If all of our bees dissapear we will only have chocalate or vanilla ice cream says haagen-Daz sales offices I heard this morning.

Our fruit crops need all the bee's to keep polinating and keeping production up for all the industry.I need some bees for my fruit trees in my backyard how about yours.


SOCALROCKER:kiteflyingnanergif:

mskitty38583
04-01-2008, 05:45 PM
i have seen more bees in the last 5 weeks then i did last time this year. hopefully the are on the rebound.

lorax
04-01-2008, 06:50 PM
There's a good discussion of the subject HERE. (http://www.ubcbotanicalgarden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23710&highlight=bees)

For my two cents, the bee population (all types of bees) in South America has barely been affected by whatever's causing the decline up North. I'd say that maybe pesticide use coupled with untested GMO cropping might be a factor - down here the saying is "if you're using chemicals, you're doing it wrong" and almost all of the countries have rejected GM crops.

This, coupled with an abnormally cold winter season may be taking a toll on the bees.

waggoner41
12-15-2013, 02:58 PM
Researchers seem to be zeroing in on neonicotinoids as a possible major cause of CCD in bee colonies.

Known neonicotinoids are:
•Acetamiprid
•Clothianidin
•Dinotefuran
•Imidacloprid
•Nitenpyram
•Thiacloprid
•Thiamethoxam

There are only four manufacturers known to be producing products that include neonicotinoids. They are:
Bayer CropScience Ltd
Westland Horticulture Limited
The Scotts Company (UK) Limited
Sherriff Amenity

Lists of the products known to contain neonicotinoids can be found at:
www.beyondpesticides.org/pollinators/documents/pesticide_list_final.pdf‎

The problem is that the neonicitoids may not be listed on the label of products containing them meaning that the only sure way of the products you use do not contain neonicitoids is to boycott products from the listed companies.

Darkman
12-15-2013, 03:18 PM
I believe several European countries banned them years ago yet the bees still are suffering from CCD so that is not the main problem.

PR-Giants
12-15-2013, 08:51 PM
Researchers seem to be zeroing in on neonicotinoids as a possible major cause of CCD in bee colonies.

Known neonicotinoids are:
•Acetamiprid
•Clothianidin
•Dinotefuran
•Imidacloprid
•Nitenpyram
•Thiacloprid
•Thiamethoxam

There are only four manufacturers known to be producing products that include neonicotinoids. They are:
Bayer CropScience Ltd
Westland Horticulture Limited
The Scotts Company (UK) Limited
Sherriff Amenity

Lists of the products known to contain neonicotinoids can be found at:
www.beyondpesticides.org/pollinators/documents/pesticide_list_final.pdf‎

The problem is that the neonicitoids may noy be listed on the label of products containing them meaning that the only sure way of the products you use do not contain neonicitoids is to boycott products from the listed companies.

I would not recommend a boycott, but would recommend reading the label and following the instructions.

Imidacloprid is the active ingredient in one of the two most popular "spot on flea treatments".

It works great, very safe for mammals and costs less than 10 cents per year per dog.

IMO it is worth all ten pennies not to think about fleas for an entire year.

Imidacloprid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid) is currently the most widely used insecticide in the world and is now off patent.

Fipronil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipronil) is the active ingredient in the other popular "spot on flea treatments",

it is a phenylpyrazole and is also toxic to bees.

sunfish
12-15-2013, 09:09 PM
Imidacloprid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid)

Bees and other insects
Main article: Imidacloprid effects on bees

Imidacloprid is one of the most toxic insecticides to bees. The acute oral LD50 ranges from 0.005 µg a.i./bee to 0.07 µg a.i./bee, which makes imidacloprid more toxic to bees than the organophosphate dimethoate (oral LD50 0.152 µg/bee) or the pyrethroid cypermethrin (oral LD50 0.160 µg/bee).[27] The toxicity of imidacloprid to bees differs from most insecticides in that it is more toxic orally than by contact. The contact acute LD50 is 0.024 µg a.i./bee (micrograms of active ingredient per bee).[28]

Imidacloprid was first widely used in the United St

PR-Giants
12-15-2013, 09:31 PM
IMIDACLOPRID - EXPERT OVERVIEW - BAYER

with reference to
Cox, Caroline (2001), Insecticide Factsheet / Imidacloprid, Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides (NCAP), Journal of Pesticide Reform, Vol. 21, No.1, pp.15-21

Bayer experts from different scientific fields compiled this position paper to allow a balanced assessment of imidacloprid.



Introduction

In the NCAP fact sheet detailed information about imidacloprid has been compiled but with reference mainly to the intrinsic properties of the active ingredient. The whole article is therefore based mainly on the description of the hazards of imidacloprid. Presenting study results in this way is misleading and does not allow an objective overview or understanding.

Before a crop protection product can be marketed it has to pass a thorough investigation by each national regulatory authority. In this procedure, in all countries with high registration standards, a risk assessment is performed in line with internationally harmonised, standardised and validated testing guidelines. As a first step all studies are targeted to find out the intrinsic toxicity (hazard identification) of the compound and to establish dosages at which such an effect can not be observed (NOAEL = no-observed adverse effect level). These are the values which are mainly referred to in the NCAP fact sheet. In order to minimise or exclude any possible risk for the farmer, the consumer or the environment, it is important to collect information about the possible exposure. Even if a product is highly toxic for e.g. insects - if it is almost impossible that the insect will ever get in touch with this product these insects are not at risk! This is the second - and very important - step in a reasonable risk assessment that is often left out in the NCAP fact sheet. The NCAP fact sheet deals only with the intrinsic properties of imidacloprid (no real risk assessment of using the products), is citing studies without giving the whole picture and refers mainly to laboratory work, the results of which cannot directly be applied to practical field conditions.

In 1985, Bayer chemists synthesised imidacloprid for the first time. Because of its new mode of action controlling many important pests already resistant to other insecticides and its excellent systemic properties allowing a lot of innovative application techniques, farmers made this compound the most successful insecticide world wide within a decade. Today imidacloprid is marketed in more than 120 countries protecting more than 140 crops.

How does imidacloprid work?

Mode of action

Imidacloprid works differently to other insecticides presently being marketed (i.e. carbamates, organophosphates and pyrethroids). The mode of action is based on interference of the transmission of impulses in the nerve system of insects. Similar to the naturally occurring signal-transmitting acetylcholine, imidacloprid stimulates certain nerve cells by acting on a receptor protein. In contrast to acetylcholine, which is quickly degraded by the enzyme acetylcholine-esterase, imidacloprid is inactivated either very slowly or not at all. It has both contact and ingestion activity. The target pest’s feeding activity ceases within minutes to hours, and death occurs usually within 24 - 48 hours but can take up to 7 days depending on the mode of application. As to its performance: good reliable control, high selectivity, quick knock-down/protection and long residual activity are key features.

Systemic properties

Imidacloprid is characterised by its excellent systemic properties. The uptake of the active substance via the roots is an important prerequisite for soil-directed application, e.g. via irrigation systems (drench), in-furrow application, granular application including seedling-box application in rice, or seed treatment. Because of the excellent systemic activity and the low application rates, imidacloprid can be used as a seed dressing - trademark Gaucho® - as well as for foliar, soil and stem treatment - trademarks Confidor®, Admire®.

Biological spectrum

The biological spectrum of imidacloprid covers a broad range of target pests, such as:

sucking insects: aphids, whiteflies, leaf- and planthoppers, thrips, scales, mealy bugs, bugs, psyllids, phylloxera;
coleoptera (beetles): leaf beetles (e.g. Colorado potato beetle, rice water weevil), wireworms, grubs, flea beetles;
others: lepidopterous leaf*miners, some dipterous pests, termites, locusts, and fleas.

The trademarks for imidacloprid as a termiticide are Hachikusan® (Japan), Premise® (USA, Australia, Asia, world-wide). Under the trademark Advantage® it has been used commercially as a veterinary medicinal product for flea control on cats and dogs in the USA since 1996 and in Europe since 1997.

How toxic is imidacloprid?

Active ingredients to be used in plant protection must undergo an extensive battery of toxicological studies. The objective of these studies is to establish the toxicological hazard potential of the compound after single and repeated exposure so that an assessment can then be made of the risk to humans as users of the formulation and as consumers of the treated foodstuffs.
Accordingly, the toxicological testing performed with imidacloprid included a wide range of different study types:

The duration of compound administration to different species was increased progressively; from one single application (acute toxicity), through repeated feeding over several weeks (subacute/subchronic toxicity) to two year feeding (chronic toxicity).
All possible routes of administration were included (oral, dermal and inhalation).
The potential for specific toxic action such as developmental or reproduction toxicity, oncogenicity, neurotoxicity and genotoxicity, was checked.

From the results of these comprehensive studies it can be concluded that imidacloprid has a favourable toxicological profile for warm-blooded mammals. The symptoms observed following oral intake consisted of behavioural, respiratory and motility disturbances; narrowed palpebral fissures, transient trembling and spasms. They were reversible within six days. Imidacloprid was found to have practically no acute dermal toxicity and low acute inhalation toxicity. It is not irritating to skin or eyes and is not a skin sensitizer.

Mutagenity

No evidence of an oncogenic potential of imidacloprid was found in either the rat or the mouse long-term feeding studies. Imidacloprid exhibits no genotoxic or mutagenic potential under in vivo conditions.

Effects on reproduction

The reproductive toxicity of imidacloprid was investigated in a two-generation study in rats and in developmental toxicity studies in rats and rabbits. Reproduction behaviour and out*come were not negatively affected.

Overall the data show that imidacloprid has no primary reproductive toxicity and exerts no teratogenic potential.

Acute / Subchronic Toxicity

In an acute and a subchronic neurotoxicity screening study in rats investigating specific neuro-toxicological pa*rameters by a functional observation battery, by automated motor activity measurements, and by special neurohistopathology, no primary neurotoxic effects were found for imidacloprid. All effects observed were related to the general toxicity of this compound.

In conclusion, no specific areas of concern were identified in the toxicological profile for imi*dacloprid and no-observed adverse effect levels (NOAEL) were established. In a risk assessment using the lowest relevant NOAEL of the most sensitive species for a comparison with exposure values predicted for specific use scenarios always resulted in high margins of safety indicating that imidacloprid is safe for both, the operator and the consumer.

How toxic is imidacloprid for the environment ?

The ecotoxicological part of the NCAP article is implying hazards and risks to many groups of organisms by only mentioning the respective intrinsic toxicity values.

While it is acknowledged that imidacloprid is highly toxic to some groups of organisms e.g. insects, a high intrinsic toxicity alone does not mean a high risk.

With reference to the NCAP fact sheet the following examples of misleading wording are given.

· Bird problems?

It is stated that "Other problems caused by imidacloprid in birds include ..... reduced egg production and hatching success (at exposures of 234 ppm in food).". It is, however, omitted that these effects occurred in a study where birds were fed the treated diet exclusively over a period of more than 20 weeks. Under natural conditions, such an exposure (at this level over such a long time) is completely unrealistic.

· Egg shell thinning in birds?

In its first assessment EPA came to the conclusion that egg shell thinning was found in the avian reproduction study. It could be demonstrated, however, that this finding was due to an artefact in the measurements and that imidacloprid caused no eggshell thinning. This explanation was accepted by EPA thus it seems astonishing that the respective documentation is not cited in the NCAP paper, despite obviously detailed research and access to EPA internal communication documents.

· Effects on earthworms

It is correct that imidacloprid is acutely toxic to earthworms. The sublethal effects shown in laboratory studies on e.g. sperm deformities or DNA damage must be seen in relation to exposure in the field. If these effects were relevant to natural conditions, they should also be detectable under practical conditions. Long-term field studies were performed under different agricultural conditions in which imidacloprid was applied over several years again and again. In no case did a long term-effect on earthworm populations occur. Thus, these laboratory-derived effects have no relevance to the field (due to lack of sufficiently high exposure or because they are not biologically relevant at the population level).

· Effects on cats?

Linking the death of a cat, that was already ill with cancer to the treatment with a preparation containing imidacloprid is more than speculatory: in five years of world-wide monitoring of the use of imidacloprid preparations on cats, no single causal relationship between the death of a cat and the treatment with imidacloprid has been found. In addition the original paper states that imidacloprid was proven not to be the cause of death of this cat which also suffered from a final stage chronic cardiomyopathy.

Furthermore many millions of cats are treated yearly world-wide with imidacloprid preparations against fleas without any side effect. In several large, well-controlled GLP trials, cats - including weaned kittens at the age of eight weeks - received doses five-fold above the recommended therapeutic level with no signs of adverse effects.

How is the imidacloprid resistance management designed?

Since its introduction into the market more than ten years ago, and due to Bayer’s responsible care approach and strong support from the academic community, a strategy was designed to maintain this useful agricultural tool in the market for as long as possible, also with a view to future chloronicotinyls under development. Bayer has performed baseline susceptibility and cross-resistance studies for imidacloprid, and, on the basis of all these studies, guidelines were developed to prevent the development of possible resistance and cross-resistance (see Bayer AG (2000): Technical Information Brochure Confidor, Leverkusen).

There is an ongoing world-wide monitoring of critical field populations, which has shown no evident shift in sensitivity. Only two very local incidences of resistance related field failures (Long Island, USA, Colorado potato beetle; Almeria, Spain, whiteflies in greenhouses) have been reported.

Many studies have shown that there is no cross-resistance with any other class of insecticides, confirming imidacloprid’s unique mode of action. However, there is no doubt that, if any real resistance has been established in any pest(s), this problem cannot be solved by using other neonicotinoids.

What happens to imidacloprid in the environment?

The success of imidacloprid as a crop protection product would have been unthinkable had its short and long term impact on the environment brought about any adverse effects or irreversible changes. Assuming a use pattern which guarantees the desired protective effects, the behaviour in and between the compartments of the environment, biosphere, soil, water, and atmosphere, depends on physico-chemical and chemical properties defined principally by the chemical structure. Climatic differences and diversities of the soils must also be taken also into account. Which of the theoretical outcomes will predominate following application of a crop protection product, degradation, persistence, binding to soil, volatilisation, translocation into groundwater, runoff into surface due to rainfall after application, must be established either from physico-chemical data or by direct measurements.

In the case of imidacloprid it was proven beyond doubt that persistence of residues in soil due to repetitive application over several years; translocation into deeper soil horizons, groundwater, adjacent crops or surface waters; volatilisation; and transport through the air into other regions can be ruled out. This has been confirmed again and again by world-wide and long-term experience following its use in all major crops.

Degradation in soil

There is broad evidence from research at Bayer, as well as from independent sources that imidacloprid is degraded continuously though not very rapidly. Practical trials conducted under northern European conditions showed the half-life for dissipation to be less than six months.

Degradation ends with complete mineralization to carbon dioxide, though binding of intermediate degradates to soil also occurs. It is important to draw a line between relatively long lasting residence time and persistence in the soil. Imidacloprid cannot be classified as being persistent as it does not accumulate. Long-term trials under worst case conditions with the repeated use of imidacloprid over several years have demonstrated that maximum concentrations in soil will reach a plateau and will decline if no further applications occur.

Mobility in soil and leaching into groundwater

The translocation behaviour and particularly the leaching potential of a crop protection chemical from soil into groundwater is equivalent to its inclination for hydrophilic interactions or for interactions especially with water. Imidacloprid contains in its molecular structure substituents which cause a relatively high water solubility and a low affinity to hydrophobic structures found in ordinary organic matter. The parameters, which characterise this affinity, are the partition coefficient for the system octanol-water (Pow-value) and the soil adsorption coefficient normalised to the content of organic carbon (Koc-value). Pow and Koc-values are in a range where, translocation in soil and from soil is still negligible under ordinary conditions, but where the mobility is already sufficiently high for systemic action into the roots of plants or within plants for pest control.

Behaviour in water

Though imidacloprid is not intended to be applied directly in water, it nevertheless may enter water bodies due to spray drift or in extreme situations by runoff from treated fields after rainfall. It has been shown that no unacceptable harmful effects would occur under these circumstances as the substance will undergo complete elimination from water by photolytic reactions and by microbial activity. Though the substance is stable in sterile water in the dark, it decomposes readily under the influence of light. Biotic processes under the influence of microbes present in natural water and its sediments present another mechanism for the elimination of imidacloprid.

Behaviour in air

The principal feature of imidacloprid regarding its behaviour in air is its non-volatility. Its extremely low vapour pressure in combination with a relatively high water solubility precludes direct evaporation or evaporation driven by evaporating water from soil or plant surfaces. If the substance were to be found in air samples it could only be due to an aerosol resulting from spray application. Nevertheless, a transport of imidacloprid over larger distances in the air is negligible as its chemical life-time in the atmosphere is extremely short.

The use of imidacloprid in agriculture does not entail unacceptable harmful effects for the environment as the substance will disappear under all circumstances from the compartments soil, water and air.

Nicolas Naranja
12-15-2013, 11:04 PM
I actually just attended a lecture about pesticides and bee health on December 6th. Interestingly, this researcher did not find that neonicotinoids were strongly toxic to bees at levels found in their environments. However, he did find troubling results with glyphosate and some of the fungicides. It seemed that the most toxic act that happens to bees is treating their hives for mites.

kizanne
12-16-2013, 08:24 AM
NeoNics are systemic and they last through initial contact allowing them to build in soil, pollen, wax. Most studies on Neonics and their effect on bees only covers initial exposure and not long term built up residue.

The chemicals that aren't really tested and GM crops I believe play a part but CCD is a combination of several factors I think.

Bee keepers also play a part in the trouble kept bees are having. The average commercial bee keeper use lots of on label chemicals but many around here also use off label chemicals like roach bait to control small hive beetle. In addition the bees nutrition is greatly impacted. Bee keepers steal their honey leaving them no stores and feed them sugar water and artificial pollen. Both are poor substitutes for what the bees had taken from them. Honey is an antimicrobial and antifungal agent where as sugar water is not. By taking all the bees to California for the almond pollination this also allows the bees to have great intermingling which increases the spread of parasites and disease.

Add in all the chemicals sprayed in the almond fields and elsewhere and of course you have sickly bees.

I agree with the sentiment if you have to use chemicals you are doing it wrong. While yield maybe lower the product is healthier.

waggoner41
12-16-2013, 05:59 PM
I agree with the sentiment if you have to use chemicals you are doing it wrong. While yield maybe lower the product is healthier.

That last statement says it all. No matter what problem exists in growing crops there is a natural solution. Every insect has natural predators that are not being encouraged.
Two problems exist. Far too many chemicals are being used for one thing and the other is that vast areas are devoted to single crops encouraging the development of diseases.

All of the problems come from the need to produce crops at the least cost and least loss. Even though it will mean less profit we have to change the way we grow our crops.

Nicolas Naranja
12-16-2013, 06:34 PM
Every insect has natural predators that are not being encouraged.... vast areas are devoted to single crops encouraging the development of diseases....even though it will mean less profit we have to change the way we grow our crops.

I work full time in an entomology lab. While I agree with the sentiment about there being natural predators, sometimes they don't exist in the area they are causing problems or don't occur in numbers high enough to have any impact. You don't have to have vast areas of a single crop to experience economic levels of disease. I have 1/4 acre of bananas behind my house that is 5 miles from any other commercial planting and I still had Sigatoka this year. Finally, farms exist to make profits just like any other business, how would you feel if someone was going to dictate to you how much money you got to make next year. What you are really proposing is a whole lot more manpower to manage pests and diseases.

Darkman
12-16-2013, 07:15 PM
There is not a real good answer. The Earths population is composed of takers. They are no longer hunter gatherers. The majority of the population does not have the knowledge, skills or desire to provide for themselves and therefore are dependent on the minority to supply them with their needs. This results in a non natural environment and requires the usage of mono cultured crops to satisfy the needs. You cannot use natural methods on unnatural growing methods. In Nature you would not find mono culture crop growth. Until mankind puts the needs of the planet above his desires we will not be able to use "All Natural" methods of agriculture production whether it be for trees, food, textile, medicine or any other plant derivative. We all know this will not happen as mankind will not take a step backward in his desire to achieve higher levels of living. Imidacloprid has been a savior when you consider what we were using. It can be used irresponsibly and to the detriment of nature but for now it is the best sword we wield especially when used responsibly.

PR-Giants
12-16-2013, 08:12 PM
Small Farms - Big Impact (http://www.cropscience.bayer.com/en/Magazine/Small-Farms-Big-Impact.aspx)

kizanne
12-16-2013, 09:21 PM
I don't think we should ban all chemicals. However, studies should last longer on effects and not be overseen by the corporations looking to make money selling them. The head of the FDA is the ex-head of Monsanto not exactly impartial.

The collapse of the bees are important as they are pollinators for many plants not just almonds.

I raise bees using a natural method and so far am happy with the results there are commercial (though few of them) keepers that use more natural methods.

There are also farmers that grow crops without areal spraying of roundup. An artist who is known for taking a picture frame and capturing whatever in nature comes through the 'viewing area' with a video camera then doing stills did this experiment in a corn field. In most of his works he sees tons of life from insects to foxes to birds. In the corn field he saw nothing not even a grasshopper, mosquito or other common bugs.

Farmers that have used this spray spray spray routine have killed their soil. Making it a requirement for fertilizer and more spray.

Monoculture isn't the only way to make money as a farmer. I don't want to tell anyone how much anyone can make in a year. But I also don't think it is anyones right to take away other people's right to raise their food their own way. GM corn spreads genes to non-GM crops and makes it impossible to for people within a 2 mile radius to grow no-GM crops and save seed. Neonics last through soil, the crop that grows, the feces of the cows or livestock meaning the compost will also have some residual as well. Chemicals shouldn't be this long lasting.

Kat2
12-16-2013, 09:30 PM
I have been working to have a small farm for over 20 years and really all of my life. I might finally be getting there. I know better than to raise bees for honey to eat or sell because I can't control where they roam which means they're endangered by others' practices. I can encourage any and all pollinators to enjoy my plants as I have done so in the past. I can control what I do on my land and will as I always have. I will encourage beneficials even if I have to buy some at this point; I will do my best to provide a habitat where they will stay happily as they did on my 1/8 acre once barren city plot on a busy road where I grew all manner of plants that amazed all visitors who were invited to visit my secret little slice of heaven behind the "facade ordinance" legislated by a stupid bunch of yuppies. In a commercially zoned area where the only green space was provided by me.

Just as I was really lazy then I will again let Mother Nature take her course even if it means I don't harvest all I could THIS year because I know, that if I pay attention to my land and Her before I intervene gently, very gently, (building compost and better soil isn't lazy really but sometimes you gotta do some kind of work to help the cause) when necessary that 2 years from now I will be rewarded with better yields and will continue to be able to practice my lazy ways with excellent results for as long as I reside in that space.

Not organic--just patient--this world is much older than this year or next or me. Call me crazy but I have several tree frogs that would argue with you. Heck, at least 1 wants to live with me. Um, no, I'm done with feeding pets....and frogs, toads and lizards give me the willies...snakes and spiders? Don't ask...

ETA: I am not anti GMO entirely; I am concerned about some aspects of it.

Abnshrek
12-17-2013, 11:26 AM
Is this true? I sure wouldn't want to buy seeds covered in crap..

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1425271_680216362018830_828467234_o.jpg

PR-Giants
12-17-2013, 01:21 PM
WoW...

These insecticides are typically used as a soil drench.

soil drench imidacloprid - Bing (http://www.bing.com/search?q=soil+drench+imidacloprid&qs=AS&pq=soil+drench+im&sc=4-14&sp=1&FORM=QBRE&cvid=d8182b2bad85495ebe9ca313bddc21f1)

Home termite protection uses about 200 gallons poured around your house every 7 years.

There's also tree drenches, lawn drenches, and foliar sprays.

Maybe coated the seeds uses less insecticide than flooding the fields a few times.

I read an article last year that said the replacement for Imidacloprid was due out in 2014.

Almost every homeowner, knowing or not, uses these insecticides.

Is this true? I sure wouldn't want to buy seeds covered in crap..

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1425271_680216362018830_828467234_o.jpg

waggoner41
12-17-2013, 04:41 PM
I work full time in an entomology lab. While I agree with the sentiment about there being natural predators, sometimes they don't exist in the area they are causing problems or don't occur in numbers high enough to have any impact. You don't have to have vast areas of a single crop to experience economic levels of disease. I have 1/4 acre of bananas behind my house that is 5 miles from any other commercial planting and I still had Sigatoka this year. Finally, farms exist to make profits just like any other business, how would you feel if someone was going to dictate to you how much money you got to make next year. What you are really proposing is a whole lot more manpower to manage pests and diseases.

Bacillus thuringiensis strains exist worldwide and have been in development since the 1950's. Strains have been developed which are effective against specific types of insects, ie, leaf eating insects or certain types of fly larvae (israelensis strain, or Bti). These are widely used against larvae of mosquitoes, black flies and fungus gnats.

As far as I know these bacterial measures are not in widespread use by commercial growers.

There is a .pdf document that can give better insight by searching for "bacillus thuringiensis israelensis" it should appear as the third link.

Darkman
12-17-2013, 10:42 PM
Is this true? I sure wouldn't want to buy seeds covered in crap....

As with many things you can find some truth in most everything but this over the top blanket statement is not true on many levels as PR Giants post above shows. It appears that this poster was designed to instill an unwarranted fear in those that read and believe everything.

It is a fact that everyone on the planet that has died over the age of two has drank water prior to dying therefore you should immediately stop drinking the water!

Water will kill you!

kizanne
12-18-2013, 08:01 AM
Here is a link to a less dramatic but still compelling discussion of the systemic nature of neonics

http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonicotinoids-Killing-Bees_Xerces-Society1.pdf

kizanne
12-18-2013, 08:06 AM
Here's a government link explaining that during a scientific study one neonic, thiacloprid was found to be undegraded by light, water, or biological controls.

Persistence of two neonicotinoid insecticides in... [Chemosphere. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21524784)

kizanne
12-18-2013, 08:10 AM
Here's a recent Dutch University Study
Present scale of use of neonicotinoid pesticides put pollinator services at risk - Geosciences - Utrecht University (http://www.uu.nl/faculty/geosciences/EN/Current/Pages/present-scale-of-use-of-neonicotinoid-pesticides-put-pollinator-services-at-risk.aspx)


Neonics aren't the only problem bees are facing but their persistence combined with artificial nutrition, higher transmission rates of disease and parasites are all combining to create a difficult situation for them to thrive. Neonics being persistent and transferrable to pollen and nectar will just continue to build in the environment making each year worse in areas using them. And due to its persistence in water and poop making them transferrable to areas not using them.

Nicolas Naranja
12-18-2013, 10:33 AM
What is lost here is that neonicotinoids are far less acutely toxic to humans than the chemicals that they replaced. When I started working in entomology, I was working to prove to farmers that they could replace products like Aldicarb, Furadan, and Phorate with the far less toxic neonicotinoids. We have largely moved from using chemicals that were toxic to humans at the milligram level to chemicals that are toxic at the gram level. The neonics are also much safer to non-target insects. The older insecticides would kill every insect in a field, while the newer neonics tend to only kill insects that are consuming the treated plants. For the applicator, the switch has been very welcome as he/she no longer has to wear coveralls, a respirator, and goggles to put out insecticide.

Darkman
12-18-2013, 01:16 PM
My extremely limited experience is with Imidacloprid. I cannot believe that at the recommended application rates there is any long term accumilation. What do I base that on. The presence of CLM's having a huge feast on my Citrus plants after a four month old application. I'm sure you can find a study somewhere that will support whatever it is that you believe and I don't mean that in a negative or derogatory manner. Many studies have shown that IMID breaks down rapidly in sunlight and is not very persitent nor leaching in soil tests. The Florida citrus industy uses IMID as many as four times a year. If it was so persistent why would they spend the money?

waggoner41
12-18-2013, 01:19 PM
Here is a link to a less dramatic but still compelling discussion of the systemic nature of neonics

http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonicotinoids-Killing-Bees_Xerces-Society1.pdf

The report is dramatic enough but neonicitinoids are only one chemical out of the hundreds being used.

I live in Costa Rica but confined to my home on oxygen so don't have much opportunity to watch for bees here.

There are a number of kids living here that I have asked to watch for bees and let me know when they see any and explained the situation in North America and Europe.

As far as I know Central America has not been affected by CCD.

Outside of the banana and coffee plantations there are many small vegetable gardeners who depend heavily on bees and bats as pollinators.

Bats are also being decimated by white nose disease in North America and you have to wonder if the dependence on chemicals may be a part of that problem.

Bradford
01-01-2014, 06:58 PM
Saw a lot more bees this past summer than before. Found out someone near me started bee keeping and making honey. Out of everything in the yard they love my basjoo blooms the most.

Snookie
04-27-2014, 01:33 PM
Their vacationing in Lizard Creek:}

http://s8.postimg.org/5t1cgoq7p/008.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
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And looking to rent to own some condo's lol

http://s30.postimg.org/upizc90k1/001.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
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Snookie
04-28-2014, 06:45 PM
Made Two more Condo's for the Bee's to rent yesterday:} :woohoonaner: