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View Full Version : Attention: HAWAIIAN GROWERS using the "Butchers Bar"


PR-Giants
06-10-2014, 07:07 AM
http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r698/Bucko13f/IMG_0055_zps753605be.jpg (http://s1362.photobucket.com/user/Bucko13f/media/IMG_0055_zps753605be.jpg.html)


(See also discussions on tools like Dan the bananimal's Pitango bar with foot assist.)




I doubt there are many Hawaiian growers foolish enough to use the "Butchers Bar" to remove pups -

But Just In Case

Impaling a banana corm with a thick metal wedge causes tissue damage to the mother and pups. This excessive tissue damage results in a larger amount of fluid and corm tissue loss and also a longer recovery time for the plant.

This extra fluid loss, corm rot, and extended recovery time helps to increase your chances of attracting the
Banana Corm Weevil.

The BCW is not your friend,
it senses the corm fluid like a
Shark senses "blood in the water".

Funkthulhu
06-10-2014, 09:21 AM
1. mock intelligence of those who do this thing
2. describe what happens when you cut any plant
2a. it's worse if the tool is dull
3. detail possible negative outcome

4. do not provide alternative solution

PR-Giants
06-10-2014, 09:27 AM
1. mock intelligence of those who do this thing
2. describe what happens when you cut any plant
2a. it's worse if the tool is dull
3. detail possible negative outcome

4. do not provide alternative solution

:woohoonaner:

Solution is simple, once you acknowledge the problem.

sal
06-10-2014, 09:39 AM
So what is the proper way of removing pups?

I use a shovel or trowel. I try to cut the corm in a way to give the pup enough roots to survive.

Abnshrek
06-10-2014, 09:47 AM
a Post-Hole Digger?

What if the pup is to big for the post-hole digger?

(Remember this is for where Banana Corm Weevil's live, like in Hawaii..)

merce3
06-10-2014, 10:46 AM
someone on the forum recommended using a spade the other day... apparently it's better than using a standard shovel. seems sharper anyway.

sunfish
06-10-2014, 12:18 PM
If the butcher bar wedge is too thick should something with a thinner blade be used ?

verndoc50
06-10-2014, 07:12 PM
The most common problem (poor survival) is probably a result of separating the pups too soon. IFAS here in Florida (at University of FL) says it's best to wait until sword suckers have reached about 4' height. By then they will have enough roots of their own that they will survive with just a corner of the corm coming with them. This also reduces the damage to the corm. I use a pointed shovel most of the time, sometimes resort to the digging bar when thinning and survival isn't as critical.

Happy planting!

Abnshrek
06-10-2014, 07:27 PM
If the butcher bar wedge is too thick should something with a thinner blade be used ?

One w/ 1/4' steel does well w/ cutting, but bends readily unlike the digging bar aka "Butchers Bar"..

austinl01
06-10-2014, 07:56 PM
I like my butcher bar.

sunfish
06-10-2014, 09:01 PM
I don't like the butcher bar

austinl01
06-10-2014, 09:13 PM
What's the best tool to use? Basjoo is nicely divided with the butcher bar. However, for Velutina, I would use a more delicate tool.

sunfish
06-10-2014, 09:41 PM
Guess it all depends on soil type

bananimal
06-10-2014, 11:42 PM
I love my pup cutter/remover. Try and remove a Pisang Klotek 6 ft pup without it. PK runs very deep and the roots are thick and tough. And no corm weevils in this neck of the woods.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=41807&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=41807&ppuser=820)

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 09:24 AM
Try and remove a Pisang Klotek 6 ft pup without it. PK runs very deep and the roots are thick and tough.

Dan have you tried using both hands to remove a 6 ft Pisang Klotek pup?

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/Mysore/012_zpsff417462.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/Mysore/012_zpsff417462.jpg.html)

austinl01
06-11-2014, 09:26 AM
How did you remove that pup, PR?

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 09:27 AM
a Post-Hole Digger?

What if the pup is to big for the post-hole digger?

(Remember this is for where Banana Corm Weevil's live, like in Hawaii..)

What would you consider too big? This 14 footer wasn't too big. :ha:


http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53232 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53232&ppuser=12081)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53038 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53038&ppuser=12081)

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=53037 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=53037&ppuser=12081)

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 09:46 AM
How did you remove that pup, PR?


Divorced post hole digger
(http://www.bananas.org/f2/veinte-cohol-propagation-project-20516.html)

It's easy and makes a nice clean cut.

I use many different tools for removing pups.

This is a half of a post hole digger and is handy for removing small to medium size pups very quickly.


http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/D-pup1_zps80e90cc3.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/D-pup1_zps80e90cc3.jpg.html)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/D-pup2_zps393d63b3.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/D-pup2_zps393d63b3.jpg.html)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/D-pup3_zps49ef3816.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/D-pup3_zps49ef3816.jpg.html)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/D-pup4_zpsbf00b8ba.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/D-pup4_zpsbf00b8ba.jpg.html)

http://i979.photobucket.com/albums/ae272/keithpr1/D-pup5_zpseb8b58e2.jpg (http://s979.photobucket.com/user/keithpr1/media/D-pup5_zpseb8b58e2.jpg.html)

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 09:55 AM
One w/ 1/4' steel does well w/ cutting, but bends readily unlike the digging bar aka "Butchers Bar"..

WoW, at first I thought this was only just "plant abuse" by impaling the corm with the
thick wedged butchers bar but now it appears you've advanced to torturing your bananas.

Are you really using the thick wedged butchers bar which has a
very small surface area
as a pry bar, inflicting even more damage?

:woohoonaner:

Well at least it's better than using explosives. :ha:

Abnshrek
06-11-2014, 10:16 AM
WoW, at first I thought this was only just "plant abuse" by impaling the corm with the thick wedged butchers bar but now it appears you've advanced to torturing your bananas.
Are you really using the thick wedged butchers bar which has a
very small surface area
as a pry bar, inflicting even more damage?

I torcher my Banana's to grow faster is all.. The bend occurs above ground..
At 1st I thought this was about corm weavils, but I see this is more of a Plee for a Corm Reform Forum.. I say save the roots.. :^)

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 10:17 AM
The most common problem (poor survival) is probably a result of separating the pups too soon. IFAS here in Florida (at University of FL) says it's best to wait until sword suckers have reached about 4' height. By then they will have enough roots of their own that they will survive with just a corner of the corm coming with them. This also reduces the damage to the corm. I use a pointed shovel most of the time, sometimes resort to the digging bar when thinning and survival isn't as critical.

Happy planting!

It depends on the cultivar, the common Florida Manzano doesn't need any roots and a very small percentage of it's own corm to survive.

A Rhino Horn doesn't need much of anything to survive.

Rhino Horn Pup

apr 21
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52832 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52832)

apr 21
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52831 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52831)

may 7
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52835 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52835)

may 10
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=52903 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=52903)

PR-Giants
06-11-2014, 10:32 AM
I torcher my Banana's

This has been incredible progress in such a short amount of time.

The 1st Step is to simply acknowledge the problem.

Now you are well on your way to "Corm Reform". :ha:

Abnshrek
06-11-2014, 10:46 AM
This has been incredible progress in such a short amount of time.

The 1st Step is to simply acknowledge the problem.

Now you are well on your way to "Corm Reform". :ha:

Ok, I may have torchered the Namwah when I dug that massive corm out, only because it broke my shovel, but somehow the kinderschnitzel are doing very well now days.. :^)

Yuri Barros
06-11-2014, 11:24 AM
I think that one have to separete things........

Mats from extract pups............from the mats in production.........

Mats in production have distinct management.............the pups are choped at surface level.............

In the past they used a tool called "lurdinha".........to dig the apical gem..........but now they chop the exceeding pups with a machete...........at soil surface level............

Every time they chop...........the apical gem grows near the surface...........until they cut it.......

You donīt touch the main corm in this operation.............

But if you want some pups to spread the plantation............I think that you have to choose few mats to do it...............

In this case a digging bar could help...........

But in Mats in production...........the use of digging bar ......or the "lurdinha"..........may be harmful.........and the wound maybe attract weevils..........Cosmopolites sordidus........

kentiopsis
06-11-2014, 07:36 PM
The tool shown resembles the traditional Hawaiian digging tool called an 'o'o. The original 'o'o does not have the addition of the foot bar. The 'o'o I used in Hawaii lasted me 35 years and would have lasted another 35 had I not left it behind when I moved. There is no better tool for digging a deep, straight-sided hole, but it's not intended for removing banana keiki.

sunfish
06-11-2014, 07:59 PM
The tool shown resembles the traditional Hawaiian digging tool called an 'o'o. The original 'o'o does not have the addition of the foot bar. The 'o'o I used in Hawaii lasted me 35 years and would have lasted another 35 had I not left it behind when I moved. There is no better tool for digging a deep, straight-sided hole, but it's not intended for removing banana keiki.

And the other end is used for tamping soil

bananimal
06-11-2014, 08:56 PM
I need my foot assist bar for when a visitor wants a 6 to 8 ft PK pup off the mat. A pick ax on either side of the pup makes the extraction easy. In this case the bar is only used to sever the pup/mama connection.

Nicolas Naranja
06-11-2014, 09:26 PM
And no corm weevils in this neck of the woods.


This is the first year I have had to deal with a corm weevil attack. Not the typical corm weevil that is totally black. Metamasius hemipterus is a terrible pest. I knew they were in the area, but they never attacked my plants until this spring.

PR-Giants
06-12-2014, 07:49 AM
This is the first year I have had to deal with a corm weevil attack. Not the typical corm weevil that is totally black. Metamasius hemipterus is a terrible pest. I knew they were in the area, but they never attacked my plants until this spring.

From what I've read, South Florida has many weevils including the Cosmopolites sordidus, and they are terrible pest. The US bans local farmers from using many of these nasty pesticides that can effectively control weevils, but accepts produce from farmers outside the US that use these chemicals.

Clearly the US Gov is concerned about the health of US farmers, so they probably should consider implementing a Guess Worker Program, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guest_worker_program) which would allow foreign workers to temporarily reside and work in the US, while performing dangerous low or semi-skilled agricultural labor and then return home once their contract has expired. Before returning home they will be given the opportunity to Guess which chemicals they were subjected to and win lovely departing gifts.

PR-Giants
06-12-2014, 08:15 AM
www.infonet-biovision.org - Banana weevil (http://www.infonet-biovision.org/default/ct/96/pests)

Most manuals give some of the basic tips on how to reduce weevils.

Although I've never seen this common sense tip.

I'm just a simple observational farmer that noticed many more weevil attacks happen the first night after planting freshly cut pups, then happens if those pups are potted for 7-10 days and allowed to heal in a weevil free area prior to field planting.

Abnshrek
06-12-2014, 08:26 AM
www.infonet-biovision.org - Banana weevil (http://www.infonet-biovision.org/default/ct/96/pests)

Most manuals give some of the basic tips on how to reduce weevils.

Although I've never seen this common sense tip.

I'm just a simple observational farmer that noticed many more weevil attacks happen the first night after planting freshly cut pups, then happens if those pups are potted for 7-10 days and allowed to heal in a weevil free area prior to field planting.

So planting a fresh cut pup in a friends yard would be really mean down there.. So much for trying to be friendly.. :^)

lukem5
10-21-2015, 10:28 PM
I think that one have to separete things........

Mats from extract pups............from the mats in production.........

Mats in production have distinct management.............the pups are choped at surface level.............

In the past they used a tool called "lurdinha".........to dig the apical gem..........but now they chop the exceeding pups with a machete...........at soil surface level............

Every time they chop...........the apical gem grows near the surface...........until they cut it.......

You donīt touch the main corm in this operation.............

But if you want some pups to spread the plantation............I think that you have to choose few mats to do it...............

In this case a digging bar could help...........

But in Mats in production...........the use of digging bar ......or the "lurdinha"..........may be harmful.........and the wound maybe attract weevils..........Cosmopolites sordidus........



I understand that removing pups and leaving only a few pseudostems makes bigger bunches but I don't see how cutting pups at soil surface level would help improve harvest, the pups will just keep growing won't they? Thus the plant continues to divert resources to the pup instead of the bunch.

venturabananas
10-22-2015, 01:24 AM
Thus the plant continues to divert resources to the pup instead of the bunch.

Yes, but it has more resources because it doesn't have to compete with another pseudostem that is also using light ("self shading"), water, and nutrients.

lukem5
10-22-2015, 02:56 AM
Yes, but it has more resources because it doesn't have to compete with another pseudostem that is also using light ("self shading"), water, and nutrients.

so after the flower has shown and if they are small ( <1 ft ) pups then there is really no use in cutting them to increase yield? Because a small pup cant be using that many nutrients, and like I said, if you cut it at soil level it will just keep growing, using just as many resources as before it was cut right?

venturabananas
10-22-2015, 10:56 AM
so after the flower has shown and if they are small ( <1 ft ) pups then there is really no use in cutting them to increase yield? Because a small pup cant be using that many nutrients, and like I said, if you cut it at soil level it will just keep growing, using just as many resources as before it was cut right?

Yes, that's my understanding. But small pups get big quickly, and use resources to do that quick growing, so preventative maintenance of regularly removing them will probably result in a bigger bunch (larger fingers), and save you the backache of removing them when they've grown bigger.

Personally, I don't remove all pups. My goal is to have around 3-4 pseudostems on each mat, which are different sizes/ages, to ensure more regular production of fruit. I'd rather have have slightly smaller bunches that ripen at different times to ensure I have bananas to eat more of the time. But I think the most common approach in large-scale commercial banana growing is remove all pups except one, which will produce fruit in the next crop cycle. I think that follower is usually selected around the time the "parent" plant flowers.

edzone9
10-22-2015, 04:29 PM
Kieth i still say my method is better than the bar, I believe it causes less trauma.:08:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJz5oWcy0mo

merce3
10-23-2015, 07:27 PM
Kieth i still say my method is better than the bar, I believe it causes less trauma.:08:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJz5oWcy0mo

Ed, I have used your method ever since I first saw it... very quick and clean process.

edzone9
10-24-2015, 05:29 AM
Awesome ! ...I also use My Ryobi 40v tree banch trimmer to dig out larger pups'), works like butta :08:

Ed..

Mark Dragt
10-24-2015, 12:05 PM
Awesome ! ...I also use My Ryobi 40v tree banch trimmer to dig out larger pups'), works like butta :08:

Ed..

Ok, where's the video of that method? I would love to see that. I really like the video you posted using the hand saw. I can see that it would still work even in thick mats. Cut, pull, and plant. The pup doesn't even know it got replanted. Awesome! Thanks for sharing.
:woohoonaner:

edzone9
10-24-2015, 02:44 PM
All the pups that I have removed this way are thriving so is the mother plants !
Ed