View Full Version : Any thoughts?
I found this nice landscape pic on the web, but what caught my eye was the design in the rocks. This is something i would like to try and do but exactly how it was done eludes me. My best guest is they used some kind of pre-fab/homemade form (which i could find no such form on the web) poured concrete, added gravel in the top and painted it. My problem with that would be the pointed and thin spots would crack or break in due time when stepped on, so i was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how this was done and stabilized, considering it's raised and supported by loose gravel?
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/LITEBEERBITCH/1017554_500187616721062_2057523520_nCustom_zps00ac80fb.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1017554_500187616721062_2057523520_nCustom_zps00ac80fb.jpg"/></a>
sunfish
01-19-2014, 01:19 AM
Rubber
Rubber
That's possible, but it still looks like it has gravel in the top of it. Copy the pic, and enlarge it in windows pic viewer and see what you think.(or did you mean supported with rubber)
servatusprime
01-19-2014, 08:40 AM
I think I've seen some interesting things done with sand and polymers on TV. That might give you some protection from chipping and cracking where it gets really thin.
Could you make it all concrete and use two pours with contrasting colors? One for the decoration and the second for everywhere else including final surface. I don't know if you could color it afterward with stains.
servatusprime
01-19-2014, 09:37 AM
Mmmmmmm ....... Pancakes......nom nom nom
cincinnana
01-19-2014, 05:41 PM
I believe it is 1/4 steel or whatever the artist chose; bent in the form of the designs he chose to fill his designs.
The materials are readily available at Big Box stores , sold as Landscape metal trim or border.
This material is easily bent in any form that you chose; this material will hold its form due to the thickness of the material, and it is permanent .
It is almost like stained glass ......but with different materials...garden stuff, and it will look cool for a long time,
I have never done it , however I have seen many gardens use this technique in some of the garden tours that I have been on.
Looks like you can get good detail.......Don't you think?
I believe it is 1/4 steel or whatever the artist chose; bent in the form of the designs he chose to fill his designs.
The materials are readily available at Big Box stores , sold as Landscape metal trim or border.
This material is easily bent in any form that you chose; this material will hold its form due to the thickness of the material, and it is permanent .
It is almost like stained glass ......but with different materials...garden stuff, and it will look cool for a long time,
I have never done it , however I have seen many gardens use this technique in some of the garden tours that I have been on.
Looks like you can get good detail.......Don't you think?
Now that is something i never thought of cause most landscape border /edging and such come in plastic. The first thing that came to mind was corner trim, for like when one is doing drywall which also comes in metal or plastic...Anyway have to look into that, thank you!
Here is another cool pic i found..A Mosaic Garden Path done with all hand laid small river stones. A work of art and well beyond anything i could pull off. Even if it was set up like one of those paint by numbers thing, i wouldn't have the patience lol.
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm278/LITEBEERBITCH/Mosaic-Garden-Path-16884_zps74730e97.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Mosaic-Garden-Path-16884_zps74730e97.jpg"/></a>
Olafhenny
01-19-2014, 06:41 PM
Hi Tray,
I have a lot of thoughts.
As one, who has done a fair amount of ornamental concrete work, I envy you
this idea and pattern.
First to your question:
No, the tips will not break off. As long as you
Carve the whole area for the pattern out of undisturbed soil down to 4
inches below finished grade, remove all lose dirt and fill the bottom two inches
with fairly clean sand. Soak the sand thoroughly and let it sit for at least two
days or until it has settled down firmly
Buy one 4X8 feet sheet of 1/8th inch thick hardboard (particle board or
whatever it is called in your region and cut it on a table saw lengthwise into
two inch wide strips. That should give you about 23 strips or just over 180 lf.
Probably not quite enough, but you can re-use some of them.
Get at least 200 ea 18 or 24 inch long stakes. Any contractor for roads
and services or and surveyor can tell you where to get those. Those will
probably not be enough, but while some will be damaged, while pounding them
in, most will probably be re-usable.
Make sure, that the surface of the sand is completely even and smooth,
by scarifying it with a straight board in all directions.
Now comes the hard part: You should draw the concept of your pattern
with fine lines in the sand. It helps greatly, if you have drawn up the pattern
on a sheet of paper and can proportion it on the sand patch.
Then start with the stems. They should probably be about 5 inches
wide. Once you have the alignment on one side fixed, the other side follows
easily. The strips should be standing on edge and be secured with stakes no
further than 12 c/c apart. The trick here is to get the connections between
two strips flawless. That will always take two stakes side by side
Sorry, Tray, the football game is starting. This will get you started thinking. I will
continue tonight or tomorrow
For now,
Olaf
[QUOTE=Olafhenny;238114][SIZE="3"]Hi Tray,
I have a lot of thoughts.
As one, who has done a fair amount of ornamental concrete work...
I understand exactly what your saying as far as setting up a form. Thanks for the tips. The key word is ornamental, and this is a great design for such, but this is set up for foot traffic. Without knowing how the artist/contractor did this, (first pic) based on what i know and can see, i have to argue that.. sharp edges, raised thin concrete,(no support that i can see)..foot, weight, forward motion equals chip, crack, or break. I'm no expert in concrete, but based on what i can see i would say this setup is flawed or most likely the artist knows something i don't. Hence the reason i'm asking, cause i wouldn't stake my rep on this as i am seeing the set up cause loose gravel is not going to support it. Even if he used rebar or whatever, i still argue the edges will break or chip as stated above. But i welcome anyones expertise on this matter, thank you.
sunfish
01-19-2014, 07:59 PM
?
?
wasn't sure if you meant some kind of rubber form was used or if you was saying the whole thing was made out of rubber.
Olafhenny
01-19-2014, 11:03 PM
Hi again, Tray,
I have now completed my how to, proof read it, cleaned it up a bit for easier reading
and posted the whole thing again.
I have a lot of thoughts.
As one, who has done a fair amount of ornamental concrete work, I envy you
this idea and pattern.
First to your question:
No, the tips will not break off. As long as you
Carve the whole area for the walkway out of undisturbed soil down to 4 inches
below finished grade, remove all lose dirt and fill the bottom two inches with fairly
clean sand. Soak the sand thoroughly and let it sit for at least two days or until it
has settled down firmly
Buy one 4X8 feet sheet of 1/8th inch thick hardboard (particle board or whatever
it is called in your region) and cut it on a table saw lengthwise into two inch wide strips.
That should give you about 23 strips or just over 180 lf. Probably not quite enough,
but you can re-use some of them.
Get at least 200 ea 18 or 24 inch long stakes. Any contractor for roads and
services or any surveyor can tell you where to get those. Those will probably not be
enough, but while some will be damaged, while pounding them in, most will probably
be re-usable.
Make sure, that the surface of the sand is completely even and smooth, by
scarifying it with a straight board in all directions.
Now comes the hard part: You should draw the concept of your pattern with fine
lines in the sand. It helps greatly, if you have drawn up the pattern on a sheet of
paper and can proportion it on the sand patch accordingly.
Then start with the stems. They should probably be about 5 to 6 inches
wide. The strips should be standing on edge and be secured with stakes no further
than 12 c/c apart. The trick here is to get the connections between two strips
flawless. That will always take two stakes side by side. It should be flawless on the
visible top, but still a good match further down. Once you have the alignment on one
side fixed, the other side follows easily
After you have the stems formed and are sure about the proportions for the rest
of the pattern, it is time for the concrete work. You should use for that bagged
construction grade concrete. The dealer may look funny at you, asking for that, but
in some regions they may still sell the much weaker fence post concrete, which is not
enough. Because of the curved pattern of the stems you will not need any expansion
/contraction joints, but due to the length of the stems I would strongly recommend,
that you place two #2 or 3 reinforcing steel all along the stems. For that you place just
enough concrete on the sand to cover it and place the rebars on top. It is important
to put the rebar low, because that is where the tensile stress will be, in case of any
ground settlement. Then, while the concrete under the re-bars is still fresh, fill up the
form to the top, vibrate the concrete to release all the trapped air, let it sit for about
an hour or two then screet off any excess and smooth the top with a steel trowel.
To make the job perfect, get yourself an edge finishing tool, which will put a small
rounding to the top edges.
Once the concrete surface is finished and set up a bit, after a few hours, you
should cover it with anything, which will hold water for a while. Burlap, sand leaves
grass clippings, and keep it watered, because it is important to keep the surface of
the concrete from drying out for at least two weeks.
Once you have the stems finished you are experienced enough to tackle the petals.
If the curvature is in places too sharp to bend the hardboard straps easily, you may
want to try to soak one of them overnight. I do not know if it will stand up to that, but
it is worth a try. Once in place, you may have to let it dry again in order to re-
establish its strength.
After one day it will be safe to take off the forms and re-use them.
After two days you can step on it, if you stay away from the edges (hard to do with
the narrow stems, I just mention it as a guide line) . After 28 days concrete is
assumed to have attained design strength, though it will still harden further marginally.
You will not need any reinforcing in the petals.
If you are concerned about the sharp tips of the petals breaking off you can always
support them with concrete wedges stopping ½ inch below the top.
I have written down all that I can think of in the first run-through, but I am sure, that
I have forgotten a thing or two. So feel free to ask any questions you may have.
Good luck,
Olaf
Olafhenny
01-20-2014, 12:03 AM
I understand exactly what your saying as far as setting up a form. Thanks for the tips. The key word is ornamental, and this is a great design for such, but this is set up for foot traffic.
Of course what I have proposed is for foot traffic. I have poured perforated concrete
slaps for our gazebo two inches thick unreinforced twelve years ago and have not had
any problems with them since. I am a (civil) construction engineer thus the design of
roads an sidewalks is part of my professional experience. But if it gives you
more peace of mind, then you can carve out the area for that walkway 5 inches deep,
slice the hardboard strips 3 inches wide and toss in the concrete 3 inches deep.
It is your dime.
Everything else remains as described.
That crack from Sunfish about rubber was a joke about the curved forms required for
the shaping of the pattern
Without knowing how the artist/contractor did this, (first pic) based on what i know and can see, i have to argue that.. sharp edges, raised thin concrete,(no support that i can see)..foot, weight, forward motion equals chip, crack, or break.
If you install it properly (carve it into solid undisturbed original ground and water the
sand thoroughly and let it settle down), then this ornament is supported by the whole planet.
:)
I'm no expert in concrete, but based on what i can see i would say this setup is flawed or most likely the artist knows something i don't. Hence the reason i'm asking, ...
Such things are most likely designed by a landscape architect and then an engineer,
like I used to be, would write up the specifications by which the contractor would
install it. These specs would not be anywhere near as detailed as, what I have
written up for you, because the contractor knows more about the practical work than
I do. I would typically just give him the dimensions and thicknesses and he would
take it from there competently.
You would have a tough time knocking those edges of properly cured concrete with a
hammer. Shoes won't do it. Just keep the concrete moist for at least a couple of
weeks and that installation will outlive you.
Again good luck,
Olaf
sunfish
01-20-2014, 10:22 AM
How do you pour concrete and finish it ?
Olafhenny
01-20-2014, 01:28 PM
Yes, KJ, you are probably correct, if you assume, that this is a photo of a set piece in a
garden or landscaping show. Not only because of the points you brought up, but also
those large pebbles are uncomfortable as hell to walk on. However that is easily
circumvented without losing the overall effect, by using crushed landscaping rock, a DIY
project, or, this would require the skills and experience of a contractor, exposed
aggregate concrete or spreading a single layer of landscaping rock over fresh concrete
and rolling it in with a hand roller. Dark lava would be quite dramatic, but you would
have to figure out the best, that is locally available.
Alternatively you could use grass as a filler or such low height, traffic tolerant, ground
covers as blue star creeper or brass buttons. But the latter two would need hundreds of
plants and a couple of years of build-up (and weeding) before full cover is achieved.
I have in my blurb below only addressed the construction of the ornamental flower.
Best,
Olaf
Yes, KJ, you are probably correct, if you assume, that this is a photo of a set piece in a
garden or landscaping show.
And here, i thought all along i had a legitimate question/arguement! lol The fact that it Might be a show piece never crossed my mind. But, that is the very reason most are here...to seek wisdom! I thank you all very much for your input!
Olafhenny
01-20-2014, 05:11 PM
How do you pour concrete and finish it ?
It is all in my write-up below. If you have questions beyond that, you will have to be
a bit more specific. :ha:
Olafhenny
01-20-2014, 05:20 PM
And here, i thought all along i had a legitimate question/arguement! lol The fact that it Might be a show piece never crossed my mind. But, that is the very reason most are here...to seek wisdom! I thank you all very much for your input!
The fact, that it appears to be a show piece, should not deter you from copying
the design. Actually that is what such show pieces are for, to inspire creativity.
sunfish
01-20-2014, 06:30 PM
Actually that is what such show pieces are for, to sell stuff
The fact, that it appears to be a show piece, should not deter you from copying
Not in the least bit. I'll figure it out when the time comes, though i prefer to do my own design, but we'll see. I've been brain storming on doing a concrete spider web, cause personally i like to go outside of the norm. But sadly it seems no one else agrees with my visions lol. Like the alien soon to be concrete statues, people are like "what the ____ is that! I say it's a yard ornament, a conversation piece, one of a kind, guaranteed to turn some heads, but nobody gets it. Oh well. But i did get a few orders for the dragon concrete end tables(if i ever get the mold done) so guest all is not lost!
Anyway check out the awesome SHOW designs in this vid, it would surely suck to do all that work just to have to tear it all out lol
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/st2fiW-ushM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Olafhenny
01-21-2014, 11:56 AM
Good for you, Tray!
You still have a couple of months before you can do anything worthwhile in the field.
That is a good time to do your brainstorming. Unlike the guy in that video, you will not
have to tear It all out again.
In order to alleviate your concerns about the toughness of sharp concrete corners, do
the following: Buy for the time being one bag of premix concrete. That should set you
back $6.- to 10.-, depending on how much they stick into bags in your area. Take a
small amount out of it and mix it with some water to mud. Then fill a tall yogurt
container or something like it, up to 2 inches from the top with that mud. Tap that a
couple of times on the floor, to get the trapped air out and store it over night. Next day
fill it with water to the top, replace the lid, put it somewhere frost free and forget about
it for about a month.
Then cut the tub off your lump of concrete, take your biggest hammer and enjoy yourself.
Make sure, to have lunch first, I do not know, how long it will take, before you give up.
:ha:
If you have a tough time cracking it with a hammer, try doing it by stepping on it with
boots. :)
That little experiment will give you a lot of confidence for any project, you may start,
when the weather warms up, and you can use the rest of the concrete from the bag
years later, if you should abandon this project, providing you store it in a dry place.
Olaf
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 11:50 AM
Great Posts Olaf...
You should explain the tensile and compression strength of concrete and how to
Well, this is a gardening site and I should restrict my post to gardening related
construction. But to briefly answer your question, concrete has great compression
resistance, but its tensile strength, the one, which resists tearing apart is relatively
low. To counter that, we insert reinforcing steel there where the concrete would "open
up" under load. That means usually near the bottom of the layer of concrete we pour,
where it spans the floor below or in a driveway, to counter any settlement, which might
occur under it. In columns rebar is usually all around the edges.
adjust the mixtures to achieve different psi.
For that you seek the advice of a geotechnical lab :)
The optimal mixture usually depends on the type of aggregate you use, i.e., the size
of the rocks and the courseness of the sand contained therein. A rule of thumb,
good enough for most purposes would be one shovel of cement for three shovels
of aggregate.
In premix bags that is all done for you and you can assume it to be optimal. Though,
since the maximum size of the aggregate is usually about 1/2 inch, the cement portion
is usually a bit higher, than in courser mixes.
Just one caveat: Here they used to sell years ago "fence post concrete", which was
low on cement content and accordingly strong enough to keep a fence post securely
in place, but not for much else. In some regions they may still sell that stuff. But that
opens up another can of worms, because direct contact with the cement in concrete
causes rot in wood.
Best,
Olaf
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