View Full Version : What root rot?
Olafhenny
01-14-2014, 09:49 PM
Time and again is the concern about root rot due to over-watering brought up in
this forum. I have stated several times, that this concern is in most cases completely
unwarranted, citing the example of all those banana plants at the edges of rice fields
on ground no more than 6 to 8 inches above standing water: If your banana has green
leaves and your pot has drain holes at the bottom, you are not getting root rot, no
matter how much you water.
Last night I went through some old photos and found this one:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/lungwitz/11957237694/" title="Banana roots in standing water by Golestan2, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/11957237694_dd0dae9aaf_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="Banana roots in standing water"></a>
It is a bad one, shot almost three years ago from a travelling vehicle, without image
stabilizer in that old camera, but I believe, that it still shows clearly that the roots of
those bananas must be submerged in standing water. If you look closely you can spot
the water between the PSs on the other side of that skimpy ridge. On Thursday I will
head to Vietnam again, only this time we do not intent to travel to the northern part
of the country, where most of the rice fields are. I still hope to get a better picture
showing banana plants with the roots in water.
Until then, while you have green leaves on your plants your only worry about too much
water should be leaching all the nutrients out of your soil.
Olaf
Richard
01-14-2014, 10:05 PM
Many people here have experience with real root rot, and I expect it is because we do not have the tropical growth rates found in SE Asia.
sunfish
01-14-2014, 10:11 PM
Root rot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_rot)
Olafhenny
01-14-2014, 11:12 PM
Many people here have experience with real root rot, and I expect it is because we do not have the tropical growth rates found in SE Asia.
A plant needs three things to grow:
Light, water and nutrition. Light you have at average much more in sunny California
than in misty northern Vietnam, where this picture was taken. Even though your
daylight hours are shorter in California, you make up most of it in brightness. The rest
you compensate in summer. Remember I stipulated green leaves. With nutrition
you are on your own, but I submit, that the average North American grower provides
better soil and fertilizer, than the bananas on the picture get. That leaves water.
Through greater evapotranspiration drier climates you get greater throughput of water.
That is clearly a help against root rot.
Having said all that in those almost four years, I have not heard of one case of an actively
growing plant suffering root rot, even in plants, which grow very slowly.
If you chop or freeze off the leaves, then you have a plant, which is half dead and
subject to all kinds of rot, root, corm and PS. Otherwise root rot is just a big fat
boo-boo man, like a monster under your bed.
Don’t get me wrong. I do not suggest, that you submerge the corm or roots of your
plant in water, but as long as you have green leaves and a bottom drain hole, you
will not get root rot in a banana, no matter how much you water.
Olafhenny
01-14-2014, 11:25 PM
Root rot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_rot)
Of course most plants are subject to root rot, though that differs in degree. Some like
wandering Jew (purple heart) are completely immune. I have watered a philodendron
for years by filling up the tray, in which its pot was sitting, with water and it developed
a veritable jungle in my living room (I was still a bachelor then). I would not want to
do that with most house plants.
But under conditions, I specified below, a banana will not develop root rot.
Richard
01-15-2014, 12:31 AM
Don’t get me wrong. I do not suggest, that you submerge the corm or roots of your
plant in water, but as long as you have green leaves and a bottom drain hole, you
will not get root rot in a banana, no matter how much you water.
I've seen it many times. Typically the culprit is a soil with moisture retention, but other times it is because the plant is indoors and not getting enough light to process the moisture in the soil mix.
A plant needs three things to grow:
Light, water and nutrition. Light you have at average much more in sunny California
than in misty northern Vietnam, where this picture was taken. Even though your
daylight hours are shorter in California, you make up most of it in brightness. The rest
you compensate in summer.
If what you say about light and humidity were true, then bananas would fruit and ripen at my location in 9 months as they do in SE Asia. However, the reality is that it takes 18 months.
cincinnana
01-15-2014, 07:47 AM
After close inspection it seems to me these are planted on a raised berm and are not in standing water.
There is a distinct bank/waterline and then the berm, and it seems that this is the growing and irrigation method of the landowner, rice, taro, or pungi sticks on one side with a row of bananas as a separator.
Take some interesting photos to share on your journey to Vietnam
Chuckle, chuckle.... A quote from the movie Full Metal Jacket just came to mind.....starts off with "Me so...
Olafhenny
01-15-2014, 11:43 AM
I've seen it many times. Typically the culprit is a soil with moisture retention, but other times it is because the plant is indoors and not getting enough light to process the moisture in the soil mix.
Are you suggesting that there is not enough "moisture retention" in that low and narrow
ridge between two ponds of standing water to achieve root rot, but you could achieve it
by watering plants in a pot with a drainage hole?
If what you say about light and humidity were true, then bananas would fruit and ripen at my location in 9 months as they do in SE Asia. However, the reality is that it takes 18 months.
I have no experience of growing bananas in SEA or in California, or anywhere for that
matter, because we do not have enough grow time between frost to achieve either fruit
nor bloom here, but since you brought up the divergent growth rates, maybe you can
substantiate them? Especially the somewhat hasty growth rate you indicate for SEA
leaves me interested?
Thanks,
Olaf
Richard
01-15-2014, 02:46 PM
Are you suggesting that there is not enough "moisture retention" in that low and narrow
ridge between two ponds of standing water to achieve root rot, but you could achieve it
by watering plants in a pot with a drainage hole?
I'm not suggesting it, I've witnessed it in person as the owner/operator of a nursery. There are also several historical threads on this site discussing the woes of specific soil products containing moisture retention supplements. Having a drain hole in your pot does not mean that your soil will drain. A novice gardener will do many things that amaze those with experience :)
I have no experience of growing bananas in SEA or in California, or anywhere for that
matter, because we do not have enough grow time between frost to achieve either fruit
nor bloom here,
I have customers growing them in Edmonton AB and Nome AK -- indoors of course with exception of the brief summer warmth.
but since you brought up the divergent growth rates, maybe you can
substantiate them? Especially the somewhat hasty growth rate you indicate for SEA
leaves me interested?
Somewhere on the Banana section of the Bioversity Internation site (http://bananas.bioversityinternational.org/) you'll find tabulated data of growth rates, harvest sizes, etc. collected from sites in Africa, Indian subcontinent, SEA, and Australasia. Discussions of this information can also be found here at bananas.org.
Olafhenny
01-15-2014, 03:22 PM
I'm not suggesting it, I've witnessed it in person as the owner/operator of a nursery. There are also several historical threads on this site discussing the woes of specific soil products containing moisture retention supplements. Having a drain hole in your pot does not mean that your soil will drain. A novice gardener will do many things that amaze those with experience :)
Unless you use plumber's putty for potting soil, you should have less water logging
than the plants in my picture
I have customers growing them in Edmonton AB and Nome AK -- indoors of course with exception of the brief summer warmth.
And I am growing bananas here in Canada indoors and out, but what does that have
to do with root rot?
Somewhere on the Banana section of the Bioversity Internation site (http://bananas.bioversityinternational.org/) you'll find tabulated data of growth rates, harvest sizes, etc. collected from sites in Africa, Indian subcontinent, SEA, and Australasia. Discussions of this information can also be found here at bananas.org.
I will look that up, if I have time. Right now I am trying to get ready for our trip to
Vietnam tomorrow morning, at a time, when it should be illegal to get out of bed.
Don't let that discourage you to dig up more evidence of root rot. I will be in touch
again. when I am there and recuperated from an almost 50 hours bed to bed trip.
I might even be able to squeeze in a reply to your last paragraph, before I leave,
- depends wow it goes :)
Best,
Olaf
Richard
01-15-2014, 03:29 PM
And I am growing bananas here in Canada indoors and out, but what does that have
to do with root rot?
You brought it up here:
I have no experience of growing bananas in SEA or in California, or anywhere for that
matter, because we do not have enough grow time between frost to achieve either fruit
nor bloom here,
Please take lots of pictures on your trip! We always enjoy virtual trips to other parts of the world.
Olafhenny
01-15-2014, 04:30 PM
You can bet, Richard, that I will take lots of pictures. In the past I have relied
on such trips on internet cafes, but since there is now WiFi everywhere, I am
dragging my laptop along and will accordingly be equipped to upload my photos
to Picasa and subsequently to my Flickr site. :)
Olafhenny
01-18-2014, 06:23 PM
First of all here is a copy of a brief explanation, as to why I am still here, which I
sent out to a number of people:
The vacation, that wasn’t (this explanation will go to several people and is
therefore not personal)
It was a disaster throughout. When we arrived at Kelowna airport, our flight was first
delayed and then cancelled altogether. When we tried to re-book, we were told by the
Air Canada representative, that Westjet had booked anything available for their customers.
Any flights, which were available to us, would have gotten us to Saigon 3 ½ days later
and one hour after the flight we had booked out of Saigon had left. Add to that that the
time was leading up to Tet, the number one travel time in Vietnam, when all the families
try to get together, getting flights and hotel reservations, which were not pre-
booked much earlier would have been impossible.
So here we are again in chilly Penticton instead of warm and cosy Saigon. After we
arrived back, we had to send our house-sitter back home and begin a frantic quest of
cancellation of all reservations throughout the six weeks we had planned to travel in
Vietnam and subsequently rebooking everything for a new trip starting Jan. 27, to Mar. 17.
Best,
Olaf
Now back to the subject on hand:
Richard I have tried the URL, you supplied to back up your contention of divergent
growth rates of bananas between SEA and southern California. That URL did not get
me anywhere close to the list you mentioned, and I am not prepared to spend a large
amount of time to research your debating point. I am afraid, that you have to get me
a bit closer to the the proof of your assertion. - Fair enough?
Best,
Olaf
Richard
01-18-2014, 06:31 PM
First of all here is a copy of a brief explanation, as to why I am still here ...
Olaf, sorry to hear your trip was cancelled but happy to hear you were able to rebook it.
Richard I have tried the URL, you supplied to back up your contention of divergent
growth rates of bananas between SEA and southern California. That URL did not get
me anywhere close to the list you mentioned, and I am not prepared to spend a large
amount of time to research your debating point. I am afraid, that you have to get me
a bit closer to the the proof of your assertion. - Fair enough?
If you don't wish to believe me, that's fine. :08:
Richard
01-18-2014, 07:15 PM
Here's a thread from July 2005 on the topic of maturation: http://www.bananas.org/f2/maturation-10.html#post29
Olafhenny
01-18-2014, 09:58 PM
Okay, Richard, I looked at that thread too. It talks about (large) differences of
maturation of fruit after bloom or after development of first fingers, depending on
species. It neither supports nor disproves your assertion, that bananas ripen much
faster in SEA than in California.
Until you can proof me differently, I still maintain, that the growth rate depends
on light, soil and temperature conditions much more than on location, and location
has certainly no impact on susceptibility to root rot.
I state it again: Bananas with healthy green leaves will not suffer from root rot,
when in a pot with a drainage hole in the bottom (and of course as long as that
pot does not sit in a trough full of water). :)
But even the latter might not be a problem, if the water in that trough is renewed
frequently (aeration). :)
Richard
01-18-2014, 10:11 PM
Olaf,
When Tony and I first joined this site several years ago, root rot was the biggest problem we noticed among novice gardeners. Also, I noticed it among some of my customers who purchased bananas from me here in San Diego.
The main problem was with novice indoor gardeners. As you are no doubt aware, the humidity in a house is much lower than outdoors. This in turn causes the top layer of soil in a pot to dry out quickly. A novice gardener will notice this, and thinking the plant needs water will give the plant a drink. If they do this several times a week under the lower light input of indoors with a moisture retention soil, root rot is going to happen.
Now, since you are an experienced indoor gardener I doubt it will ever happen to you.
The folks from southern CA on this site will attest to 18 month maturation times. However, as Gabe pointed out 3 times in this paragraph, under tropical conditions that standard time is 9 months or less:
That really depends on your growing conditions and most importantly, the variety. The wild Rhodochlamys species (like velutina and ornata) usually average about 5 months or so. The larger wild species will generally take about 12-18 months, however, in the perfect conditions 9 months is normal. Edible cultivars will usually also take about 12-18m months, even dwarf varieties, however, some of the taller ones like 'Saba' and the Reds (dwarf and tall 'Red') will easily take 2 years or more, especially the first time they fruit, but again, most of these (except the Reds) can fruit in 9 month under supreme conditons. 'Raja Puri' has been recored to fruit at 6 months, but usually take the normal 9-12. All of these times though are under the assumption that you can keep your bananas actively growing all year long without any longs breaks, this means basically the extreme Southern US, other tropical regions thru-out the world, or a heated greenhouse.
Southern CA does not fall into the category of "extreme southern US", our latitude is equal with the Carolinas and Georgia.
As for the chart from Biodiversity International, I recall it was the subject of discussion in a thread here -- and one of the remarkable things on the list was a banana that is named for the number of days it matures. I'm sure someone will dig it up sooner or later.
Olafhenny
01-18-2014, 11:38 PM
Olaf,
The main problem was with novice indoor gardeners. As you are no doubt aware, the humidity in a house is much lower than outdoors. This in turn causes the top layer of soil in a pot to dry out quickly. A novice gardener will notice this, and thinking the plant needs water will give the plant a drink. If they do this several times a week under the lower light input of indoors with a moisture retention soil, root rot is going to happen.
There is no way, that you can equal the sogginess of the plants in the original picture
by just watering a few times every week, even by watering every day. I have that
photo as evidence. Where is yours, other than speculation on the "inexperience"
of indoor gardeners, which only serves to propagate the popanz of root rot, which
is impressed onto every newcomer to this forum, and which does not exist under
the conditions, I have specified herein.
I do not turn back, if a black cat crosses my intended pass, but I do not walk under
ladders, if someone works above, who might drop a tool or implement on my head.
That makes sense, because a wrench falling on my head hurts. Being scared of root
rot in a plant, which appears perfectly fine with "wet feet" does not make sense,
and justifying that fear with contrived speculation about country of location does not
make sense either
Gabe pointed out 3 times in this paragraph, under tropical conditions that standard time is 9 months or less,
Of course, if maturation is not interrupted by a cool period, it continues on. That
makes sense, but has zilch to do with root rot. Here the growth period is not even
long enough to bring any banana to bloom, but we still do not experience root rot.
Though I have never stuck a banana's "feet" into water, while it was "beheaded".
:ha:
Olaf
PS: Frankly I have repeated myself more often, than I am comfortable with, and
unless you come up with some solid evidence on root rot, other than 'hearsay' and
speculation, I am bowing out of this discussion
sunfish
01-21-2014, 02:54 PM
What Causes Root Rot? (http://www.firstrays.com/root_rot.htm)
sunfish
01-21-2014, 02:57 PM
How Do I Recognize and Prevent Root Rot in Soil? (http://www.420magazine.com/forums/how-grow-marijuana/72168-how-do-i-recognize-prevent-root-rot-soil.html)
sunfish
01-21-2014, 02:59 PM
What causes root rot? Low Oxygen levels. (DO) Desolved Oxigen. Temp's are the main reason for root rot, Low temps will lower the DO levels ...
sunfish
01-21-2014, 03:00 PM
Control Root Rot Caused by Overwatering or Fungus (http://www.weekendgardener.net/plant-diseases/root-rot-101010.htm)
sunfish
01-21-2014, 03:02 PM
Guide to Getting Rid of Root Rot (http://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/347697-guide-getting-rid-root-rot.html)
sunfish
01-21-2014, 03:04 PM
https://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/profile.aspx?PID=542
sunfish
01-21-2014, 03:05 PM
GreenCoast Hydroponics Information on Root Health and Pathogens in Hydroponic Systems (http://www.gchydro.com/information_roots.asp)
harveyc
01-21-2014, 07:45 PM
Requirements for Plant Growth (http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/hydro/require.html)
Olafhenny
01-21-2014, 10:38 PM
While several of the below posts explain causes for root rot, these are all general.
Plants have widely differing reaction to conditions, which cause root rot in some, but not
in others. Bananas, because they originate in humid, often soggy climes, are relatively
immune to it.
There is a good reason cacti grow wild in Arizona, but not bananas and it does not just
have to do with the odd cold spell there.
So far I have not seen any evidence, which contradicts my oft repeated assertion, that a
banana plant with healthy green leaves in a pot with a drain hole at the bottom cannot
be over-watered.
In the contrary the following two URLs, one from a member here and the other from a
professional, appear to suggest, that I have been, if anything, too conservative in my
statement:
http://www.bananas.org/f311/my-water-bananas-18391.html
and
Growing a banana tree in a pond (http://www.bonniesplants.com/banana.htm)
I am conjecturing here: Somebody in the past on this forum has experienced rotten
roots, blamed it on over-watering and announced it here. The reason might have been,
that the plant was already half dead from under-cooling, lack of light during shipping or
a raft of other causes. Because that individual was at the time one of the “most
experienced” members the story was passed on without question and is now gospel
here and served up to all newcomers without critical review, who then pass it on to....
I believe, that it is high time, that we shine a flashlight under the bed and show, that
there is no monster there and quit spreading that silly scare story.
Olaf
harveyc
01-22-2014, 01:17 PM
The paper at http://www.bananas.org/f2/heres-what-happens-if-you-dont-17068-3.html#post209740 does not mention what temperature the bananas were being grown in but does indicate that temperature has an influence on root elongation. Tropical conditions have warm weather 24 hours/day while many of the members of this forum are growing bananas in areas with cool nights. The paper also does not mention if the bananas were grown in sterile conditions.
Driving by a banana plantation next to a rice paddy without further exploration doesn't really reveal much. What are the soil conditions in the banana plantation? Rice paddies have borders which control water flow. Vigorous banana plants use great amounts of water and would reduce the amount of moisture in the soil. My farm has areas with a high water table because of my low elevation (lower than an adjacent river). Despite experiencing a serious drought, I have standing water in areas of some fields. The weather is cold (33F this morning) and plant growth is minimal. In the summer, these same fields are dry because plant growth makes use of the water (along with increased evaporation). Temperature is a very important factor that needs to be considered before making broad generalizations.
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 03:37 PM
Sorry, Harvey and KJ, there is a lot of esoteric information out there on the impact of the
presence/absence of oxygen on roots, of bananas or others. I am not prepared to
comment on any of the provided URLs, unless they appear to directly contradict my
assertion, which is central to my starting this threat and my related appeal to stop
spreading misinformation about root rot in bananas on this forum.
For the umptiest time: “You cannot cause root rot by over-watering a banana plant with
green leaves in a pot with a drain hole at the bottom.” For real nitpickers I should really
add: The pot should not be in a container, which allows water to accumulate to a high
level around the pot.Having said all that, over-watering is bad, because it just leaches out
the nutrients from the soil. But Bananas need lots of water, so do not hesitate to supply it.
I believe, that I have, with reference to others, provided ample evidence in this thread
to support my contention.
As far as allusions to “tropical climate” in my lead photo are concerned, let me point out
that Vikie H. is growing her pond culture in HZ6/7, a long way from the balmy tropics.
I know, how hard it is to change one's opinion on a subject, especially when involved
in spreading that opinion. I had to do it quite a few times in view of new evidence
Olaf
harveyc
01-22-2014, 05:01 PM
Olaf, you are spreading misinformation. Get off your high horse and do some reading.
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 05:21 PM
I have been reading all my life and provided solid evidence for my assertions.
So what can you come up with to counter that? Placing me on an imaginary high horse
is not a valid debating point. I need substance similar to that, which I have provided.
not wild exclamations.
Abnshrek
01-22-2014, 06:12 PM
This sets up any novice for Total Failure when it comes to growing edible bananas.
The Banana type has everything to do with at what temp a root will rot, and the other factor besides moisture is soil composition simple as that.
There are many threads with warnings of less water during winter months is wise.
I think the only purpose for this thread is trivial, and can only do any new member more harm than good if they actually read, and believe anything contained here in when it comes to growing Banana's.
So this thread is for entertainment purposes only.. :^)
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 07:45 PM
This sets up any novice for Total Failure when it comes to growing edible bananas.
Not so Migael
The Banana type has everything to do with at what temp a root will rot, and the other factor besides moisture is soil composition simple as that.
There are many threads with warnings of less water during winter months is wise.
First of all, let us define “less water”. It is clear, that all plants use less in cooler
temperatures than during the hot summer, but it is hubris to try to dictate to the plant
how much water it may use. The plant can judge that better than you and I. Thus I
water most of my plants, including bananas, whenever the soil appears dryish. Then I
water gradually until it starts seeping out at the bottom an lay off. The plant determines
the frequency of watering through its uptake. Water does not promote freezing, to the
contrary, it tends to keep the plants vigorous and resistant to disease.
As far as your "many threads" are concerned, I have addressed that in one of my
earlier posts in this thread: Someone has had an experience with root rot, blamed it
on over-watering, posted that and it became a mantra and subsequently gospel.
I think the only purpose for this thread is trivial, and can only do any new member more harm than good if they actually read, and believe anything contained here in when it comes to growing Banana's.
So this thread is for entertainment purposes only.. :^)
Wrong! The purpose of this thread is to learn and for that purpose we have to keep an
open mind and not hang on to unsubstantiated believes. In a sense we are all pioneers,
trying to move tropical plants into an alien environment. And if we refuse to review
previously held ideas and concepts, we will not make any progress. Some of us have
often pups for which we do not have room. Here is a simple experiment anybody
can do: Place two pots with similar pups side by side. One you water regularly as I
have described above, the other you keep as dry as you prefer. See which one grows
or survives better. We need to experiment, but I cannot do this experiment, because I
have only HZ6 outdoors or heated indoor space. I do not have any space, with temps
in the 40es and 50es, which, I believe, you would require for this experiment.
My plants are all dormant outdoors in my shelters or actively growing indoors by the
window and watered as I described above. And none has ever developed any root rot
in four winters.
sunfish
01-22-2014, 07:52 PM
we have to keep an
open mind and not hang on to unsubstantiated believes. Exactly
sunfish
01-22-2014, 08:57 PM
Proven Winners | Wait, That Plant is Drowning! (http://www.provenwinners.com/learn/wait-plant-drowning)
sunfish
01-22-2014, 09:00 PM
Signs of Over Watering Plants - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlo62vyHn-8)
sunfish
01-22-2014, 09:02 PM
Overwatering (http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/your-garden/help-for-the-home-gardener/advice-tips-resources/pests-and-problems/environmental/overwatering.aspx)
sunfish
01-22-2014, 09:04 PM
HOW AND WHY DOES OVERWATERING KILL PLANTS? |The Garden of Eaden (http://gardenofeaden.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-and-why-does-overwatering-kill.html)
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 09:33 PM
Overwatering (http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/gardens-gardening/your-garden/help-for-the-home-gardener/advice-tips-resources/pests-and-problems/environmental/overwatering.aspx)
Juniper is a dry land plant. It grows wild in the hills above here, just at the bottom
edge of the treeline. Bananas grow wild in jungles and swamps.
Olafhenny
01-22-2014, 09:55 PM
HOW AND WHY DOES OVERWATERING KILL PLANTS? |The Garden of Eaden (http://gardenofeaden.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-and-why-does-overwatering-kill.html)
Again I see no evidence, which suggests that root rot would occur under the conditions.
I specified I have in none of my posts denied, that root rot can occur, but none under
my conditions. However bananas seem specifically inured against root rot through
excessive moisture. See the photos evidence below.
And please no more URLs about root rot, unless you can show, that it occurs in bananas
due to over-watering. I believe, that I have supplied sufficient evidence, that it does not.
So now I want to see some real evidence to the contrary, not just a plethora of URLs,
which do not address the subject on hand.
sunfish
01-26-2014, 10:45 AM
Again I see no evidence, which suggests that root rot would occur under the conditions.
I specified I have in none of my posts denied, that root rot can occur, but none under
my conditions. However bananas seem specifically inured against root rot through
excessive moisture. See the photos evidence below.
And please no more URLs about root rot, unless you can show, that it occurs in bananas
due to over-watering. I believe, that I have supplied sufficient evidence, that it does not.
So now I want to see some real evidence to the contrary, not just a plethora of URLs,
which do not address the subject on hand.
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-08-10-0602)
Olafhenny
01-26-2014, 12:04 PM
The programme researched fungal diseases in three banana species (Gold
Finger, Kandarian, and Manzano) grown in Georgia, but makes no reference to the
causes of the diseases. Significant is, that in order to cause healthy plants to
become diseased, they inoculated them with the previously isolated fungus,
They did not immerse them in water to achieve that. Accordingly this is no
evidence, that the fungus was caused by excess watering. It certainly does not
contradict my claim, that pouring lots of water into pots with drain holes at the
bottom, containing plants with green leaves, cannot cause root rot.
But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract. :)
Olaf
Olafhenny
01-26-2014, 02:31 PM
Thank you, KJ for posting that picture. The close proximity of the swamp grass to the
base of the Banana suggests to me, that the elevation of the soil around the banana
is very close to the water level. However I doubt, that the skeptics of the “root rot
advisory brigade” will see it the same way.
I have a couple of similar photos, but when back in Vietnam, I will try to get a more
definitive picture, showing that the roots are actually in the water. That won’t be
easy, because rice fields, where such plants at the water’s edge can usually be
found, are typically fenced off from the roadways and I would have to get the camera
quite close to the water level to show the height of the ground around the banana.
Best,
Olaf
sunfish
01-26-2014, 03:03 PM
The programme researched fungal diseases in three banana species (Gold
Finger, Kandarian, and Manzano) grown in Georgia, but makes no reference to the
causes of the diseases. Significant is, that in order to cause healthy plants to
become diseased, they inoculated them with the previously isolated fungus,
They did not immerse them in water to achieve that. Accordingly this is no
evidence, that the fungus was caused by excess watering. It certainly does not
contradict my claim, that pouring lots of water into pots with drain holes at the
bottom, containing plants with green leaves, cannot cause root rot.
But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract. :)
Olaf
The way I understand it is,of course I'm not an engineer,is the fungus is pretty much everywhere.To much water,lack of oxygen, weakens the plant allowing the root rot to take hold. Even a fish will die in oxygen depleted water.
Olafhenny
01-26-2014, 04:15 PM
The way I understand it is,of course I'm not an engineer,is the fungus is pretty much everywhere.To much water,lack of oxygen, weakens the plant allowing the root rot to take hold. Even a fish will die in oxygen depleted water.
First off, (civil) engineering has as much to do with biology as bread baking. The
only touch points, which come to mind quickly are the storage of top soil to keep
it bio-active for re-application and digestion of organic matter in sewage treatment.
The conditions for development and growth of fungi vary greatly, as do the fungi
from the mushroom in your burger over root rot through to mildew. The only
common thread is moisture (or humidity) and temperature. Usually (but not always)
warmth is required.
We know, that not all plants are susceptible to mildew - and oxygen deprivation
is obviously not part of that, - as not all plants are prone to develop root rot. The
discussion here is whether bananas are, and I maintain, that they are not due to
watering.
Olaf
sunfish
01-26-2014, 04:24 PM
First off, (civil) engineering has as much to do with biology as bread baking. The
only touch points, which come to mind quickly are the storage of top soil to keep
it bio-active for re-application and digestion of organic matter in sewage treatment.
The conditions for development and growth of fungi vary greatly, as do the fungi
from the mushroom in your burger over root rot through to mildew. The only
common thread is moisture (or humidity) and temperature. Usually (but not always)
warmth is required.
We know, that not all plants are susceptible to mildew - and oxygen deprivation
is obviously not part of that, - as not all plants are prone to develop root rot. The
discussion here is whether bananas are, and I maintain, that they are not due to
watering.
Olaf
Name a plant that will not get root rot.
But thanks, Tony, at least there was some rot in banana roots involved in that
research abstract
sunfish
01-26-2014, 04:31 PM
Water Lily - root rot (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?33005-Water-Lily-root-rot)
sunfish
01-26-2014, 04:33 PM
What causes water hyacinths to not flourish? « The Pond Clinic Water Garden Centre (http://pondclinic.com/what-causes-water-hyacinths-to-not-flourish/)
GreenFin
01-26-2014, 05:29 PM
I grow a lot of my bananas in water. Mostly in aquaponics. Some in hydroponics.
When it's warm enough, they're fine. When it's too cool, they rot. (There's pretty much always some rotting going on, it's just that when it's sufficiently warm the growth rate exceeds the rot rate.)
I don't find it the least bit surprising that bananas are growing in soggy soil next to a rice paddy, since it's probably sufficiently warm. I bet almost all of the roots are up above the water level, though, in order to get sufficient oxygen.
Olafhenny
01-26-2014, 05:31 PM
Hi Tony,
I kinda chuckled, when I read that. :)
I had my own experience with water hyacinths. They did well in the small pond,
which is now my “tropical planter” and in the tiny pond/basin in our gazebo, until
the grapevines covering it created too much shade.
But in the big pond, approximately the size of an Olympic swimming pool, They
shrivelled up and died. I blamed that on residues of a herbicide, which somebody
had dumped into the water years earlier, until I learned, that Koi (we have them in
that pond) love to chew off the roots of water hyacinths.
Thus I suspect, that, since all the plants around it that pond do well, this expert has
probably missed the most obvious cause: fish in the pond. Since goldfish are also
members of the carp family, I presume the love for hyacinth roots goes for them as
well.
That is just to show, that you should be guided by experts, but do not trust them
completely. :ha:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/lungwitz/12160473835/" title="DSC03806 by Golestan2, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7455/12160473835_6a57af72e0_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="DSC03806"></a>
These water hyacinths had their roots protected by large perforated pots,
kept afloat with a Styrofoam collar and set adrift in a pond with koi carp.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/lungwitz/12160884724/" title="DSC03805 by Golestan2, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/12160884724_dddbf288f3_c.jpg" width="600" height="800" alt="DSC03805"></a>
As you can see, they are doing well
Best,
Olaf
sunfish
01-26-2014, 05:48 PM
Hi Tony,
I kinda chuckled, when I read that. :)
I had my own experience with water hyacinths. They did well in the small pond,
which is now my “tropical planter” and in the tiny pond/basin in our gazebo, until
the grapevines covering it created too much shade.
But in the big pond, approximately the size of an Olympic swimming pool, They
shrivelled up and died. I blamed that on residues of a herbicide, which somebody
had dumped into the water years earlier, until I learned, that Koi (we have them in
that pond) love to chew off the roots of water hyacinths.
Thus I suspect, that, since all the plants around it that pond do well, this expert has
probably missed the most obvious cause: fish in the pond. Since goldfish are also
members of the carp family, I presume the love for hyacinth roots goes for them as
well.
That is just to show, that you should be guided by experts, but do not trust them
completely. :ha:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/lungwitz/12160473835/" title="DSC03806 by Golestan2, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7455/12160473835_6a57af72e0_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="DSC03806"></a>
These water hyacinths had their roots protected by large perforated pots,
kept afloat with a Styrofoam collar and set adrift in a pond with koi carp.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/lungwitz/12160884724/" title="DSC03805 by Golestan2, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2853/12160884724_dddbf288f3_c.jpg" width="600" height="800" alt="DSC03805"></a>
As you can see, they are doing well
Best,
Olaf
Well this expert is probably not a Tropical Botanist :ha::ha::ha:
skiarun
08-18-2014, 07:39 PM
Root rot shows itself through brown or black spots on the stems of the leaves.
Asia's tropical weather makes bananas grow at least twice as fast as anywhere in USA west coast. Perhaps the fast growth in Asia compensates for the water because the water is used so quickly. Banana plants in Asia grow upward from a foot each day....sometimes 3 feet a day.
I live in dry San Diego and am still trying to find the right soil mix, watering balance for the growth of my banana plants. I killed one of my recent transplanted pups by over watering it. I'm trying again using a soil with better drainage (lots of pumice and sand in the dirt).
If you've never had root rot in your bananas then you must have a super power and can be "Musa Man", superhero of banana plants. You are welcome to come and save my banana plants when they need a rescue.
Olafhenny
08-18-2014, 09:50 PM
Hi Skiarun,
Are you sure, that over-watering caused the demise of your plants?
I live just north of the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, HZ 6, annual rainfall 14". Thus
we are here even further removed from the balmy tropical climate than San Diego, which
is not as dry as we are here. I start the automatic irrigation system sometime in April and
leave it on until late October, right through our rainiest month of the year, June.
My plants get during all that time enough water for the dry months of July and August.
That means, that they get thoroughly soaked in June, when the ground water also rises.
We are located on top of an old river bed, which connects two lakes. so I can assure you,
that the corms get thoroughly soaked during the 5 to 6 weeks starting in the second half
of May and ending late June. No root rot ever.
I spend a couple of months almost annually somewhere in the Tropics. I have seen no sign
of bananas growing there any faster than here in my yard during summer, let alone 1 to 3
feet a day. Oh a new leaf may shoot out 12 inches a day (?), but the PS will grow only a
few inches in height per leaf.
Best,
Olaf
skiarun
08-19-2014, 12:43 AM
Well, I think you just have a special talent for growing bananas.
It could be the root rot is a result of soil conditions (aggravated by the water)....so, yes, it is possible it is something other than root rot alone.
I lived in Asia for 4 years (Hong Kong, Thailand, Philippines, India, etc.) and nearly lived on bananas.
Yes, I really did find that the banana trees grew at lightning speed.
Then again, they have a sort of fertilizer there that is rarely used in the United States...raw sewage.
I value your banana wisdom and look forward to more from you and I would really like to see your banana photos too if you have them.
My camera is in a coma, but I also hope to one day share pics of my humble potted orchard.
jbyrd88888
08-19-2014, 08:09 AM
Are you sure, that over-watering caused the demise of your plants?
I live just north of the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, HZ 6....
Well, you lost me Olaf... I thought that desert was zone 9? What about Canada? :confused:
Got a lil' experiment proving something to me... My temp at night has not fallen but a couple degrees below 70°F since I planted them more than a month ago.
I have water hyacinth too :)
Both are basjoo I separated at the same time when they were identical in height .
:nanabath: The water planted one has showed ugly growth. :ukkibannana:
http://i57.tinypic.com/3096azo.jpg
Olafhenny
08-19-2014, 02:20 PM
Hi Justin,
interesting post. Let us first get the desert out of the way: Areas, with 250 mm annual
rainfall (precipitation) or less are classified as desert. That includes most, if not all of
the Antarctica. I let you figure out which hardiness zone that is. :)
Here in Penticton temperatures up to 105^F have been measured. We reach 100^F
most years. In Osoyoos, 40 miles south of here and still within the Sonoran Desert
temperatures of 109^F have been measured. But that is not the hottest place in
Canada. Lytton, BC, in the Frazer Canon, temperatures have gone as high as 112^F,
although it is not located within any desert. Some define ‘desert’ by vegetation. By that
measure the Sonoran is creeping northward. Antelope brush (also grease wood) has
now reached the south shore of Skaha Lake, just 8 miles south from my home, one of
the two lakes, which squeeze Penticton from north and south, thereby mitigating some
of the climate extremes, which are inherent to desert and semi-arid regions.
Hardiness zones on the other hand are governed by the expected min. temperatures
(here 5^F)
Now to the bananas with roots in water:
Your photo appears to corroborate, pending your confirmation, a quiet theory of mine,
that the rot in waterlogged banana roots has a lot more to do with oxygen content of the
water than with temperatures or growth rates. Look at the photo, with which I started
this thread: Lots of water surface exposed to rain and its oxygen enhancing splashing.
Vicky here http://www.bananas.org/f311/my-water-bananas-18391.html has constantly or often water
running through her pond (?), keeping up the oxygen levels. Vicky, please help me out
on this one.
The pond here: Growing a banana tree in a pond (http://www.bonniesplants.com/banana.htm) has a relatively large water
surface, onto which rain can splash and it may even be augmented by something else
creating a bit of turbulence.
Your pond, on the other hand, appears, judging form your photo to be quite serene and
have many other plants competing for oxygen crowding the surface. Again, Justin, I
have to ask you to help me out and tell me, if this is the case. If it is, a solution might be,
to add any water to the pond from some height to create some splash.
Best,
Olaf
PS I will ask Vicky now by PM, to tell us more about the conditions in her pond
jbyrd88888
08-19-2014, 06:29 PM
Sorry you kinda influenced me you live in Arizona or Cali>>>
Same desert I'm thinking of??? Sonoran Desert (I and familiar with the definition of a desert :) )
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Sonoran_Desert_map.svg/640px-Sonoran_Desert_map.svg.png
Nah, you are correct that I only run my water fountain and other water features about once a week so, not much oxygenation is going on with the root system. but but but
"If your banana has green
leaves and your pot has drain holes at the bottom, you are not getting root rot, no
matter how much you water......while you have green leaves on your plants your only worry about too much water should be leaching all the nutrients out of your soil."
Vickie H.
08-19-2014, 07:59 PM
My water bananas are in my ponds and not the ponds with filters or pumps. All but one has been in water since 2008 the other was in water since 2007. They are under water about 3 or 4 inches above the pots. They are planted in yard dirt in pots with holes. In winter they are in my basement setting in 3 inches of water up the side of the pots. In a south window. The basement has 50* at the coldest and 60* at the warmest all winter. And this is the first winter I lost one since 2007. My big bananas are in pots outside of the pond and some are in pots with feed tubs under them and setting in a few inches of water when it is real hot and dry. Sometime my husband dumps the water if they look wilted from too much water too long.
Olafhenny
08-19-2014, 09:43 PM
It looks, that I have fallen victim of some 'me tooism' I received my injection of false
information, while briefly retiring to Osoyoos, before ending up here in Penticton.
It turns out, that the good people of Osoyoos were so proud of their arid region,
that they stretched the definition a bit from 250mm to 300mm precip. and I fell for it.
See the article here:
About Osoyoos - South Okanagan - British Columbia (http://www.sunnyosoyoos.com/about.htm)
EXCERPT:
Osoyoos, An Oasis in The Desert.
Canada's only desert extends past Osoyoos Lake to Skaha Lake, and west up
the Similkameen Valley towards Keremeos, approximately 24 km. (15 miles).
This area receives an average rainfall of less than 12 inches per year. The
desert plants and animals of this area are found nowhere else in Canada.
The "Osoyoos Arid Biotic Zone" is a continuation of the Sonoran Desert that
extends from Mexico right up to the Okanagan Valley. While irrigation has made
Osoyoos a lush green oasis, it is interesting to note that the desert continues
undisturbed where there is no water.
It appears we here in BC were not the only ones with the desire to call a bit of
'desert’ our own. Our neighbours down south seem to have similar aspirations. :)
Deserts in Eastern Washington | USA Today (http://traveltips.usatoday.com/deserts-eastern-washington-107196.html)
Desert or Steppe?
EXCERPT:
Technically, most of eastern Washington outside of foothills and mountains is semi-arid
steppe, or plain, not true desert. It all depends, however, on what criteria you’re using
to define a desert.
And...
Mountaineers Books: Best Desert Hikes: Washington (http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/Best-Desert-Hikes-Washington-P366.aspx)
EXCERPT:
If you're used to tight, tree-lined trails through (often-dripping) evergreens, it's time
for a guidebook to an entirely different world: the high desert of central and eastern
Washington. It's desert, yes -- but not the Lawrence of Arabia kind. This landscape
of sagebrush and rimrock canyons is starkly beautiful and rich in plant and animal life.
It offers mild temperatures in fall, prime wildlife viewing in winter, and an explosion of
wildflowers in spring.
Thus, if I have misled anybody, I apologize and offer the excuse, that I have been
misled myself
Best,
Olaf
Olafhenny
08-19-2014, 09:55 PM
Hi Vicky,
I was hoping you would tell us about the water in your pond, i.e, is there anything,
which would add or renew the oxygen therein, such as water flowing through, a
fountain or anything else, which would agitate the water and thereby add oxygen?
Thanks,
Olaf
jbyrd88888
08-24-2014, 04:13 PM
A plant needs three things to grow:
Light, water and nutrition.....Don’t get me wrong. I do not suggest, that you submerge the corm or roots of your
plant in water, but as long as you have green leaves and a bottom drain hole, you
will not get root rot in a banana, no matter how much you water.
I think your second post to this thread poses the most controversy.
Assuming light may also refer to warmth and nutrition cancels out any other problems a banana can acquire and the water is complete (oxygen too) and stress not being a factor it maybe reasonable to entertain your theory.
I must say this water deal may not be totally too bad an idea.
The pup in water I have, has showed nice roots and two lil pup.
http://i60.tinypic.com/2wna5ub.jpg
I'll state again I separated these at a similar height and size at the same time but, the one on land has almost doubled.
http://i61.tinypic.com/1pb0ia.jpg
BUT I drilled many extra drain-holes and..
http://i61.tinypic.com/4kk4fo.jpg
Added a small water pump for oxygenation.
http://i62.tinypic.com/xp6mtu.jpg
Placed in jar wrapped in fabric to avoid clogging.
http://i62.tinypic.com/30nb5aa.jpg
This should run on solar or ac for 12 hrs a day.
http://i61.tinypic.com/16b0shu.jpg
I don't want to take it out of water to recover sooo
Hope this will fix my problem... All my other plants are booming in the pond= about 3'-4" deepest 2500-2800 gallons. I have raised the banana plant a little higher as you can see.
skiarun
08-24-2014, 08:17 PM
In your aquaponic banana plants do you need to keep the water flowing to maintain aeration? What growing medium do you use?
cincinnana
08-24-2014, 08:25 PM
Keep the water flowing...
Oxygenate as much as possible to avoid fouling of the water.
Photos below are from another thread.
Methods are similar except one uses a medium and the other does not.
Some people use organic medium while others use inorganic (man made) mediums.
http://www.bananas.org/f356/hydroponics-begginers-8962.html#post250835
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/110357684@N02/14978708871" title="Untitled by Hostafarian, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5583/14978708871_d633b27df3_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="Untitled"></a>
bengal tiger nanas
08-24-2014, 08:30 PM
Keep the water flowing...
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/110357684@N02/14978708871" title="Untitled by Hostafarian, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5583/14978708871_d633b27df3_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="Untitled"></a>
nice work. very good tip.thanks don&judy
Olafhenny
08-24-2014, 10:29 PM
I think your second post to this thread poses the most controversy.
Assuming light may also refer to warmth and nutrition cancels out any other problems a banana can acquire and the water is complete (oxygen too) and stress not being a factor it maybe reasonable to entertain your theory.
Hi Justin,
I am not sure, what you are trying to say here. Nobody in this forum would suggest
raising bananas in the arctic and the need to protect your plants in all of the warmest
regions of the US in winter has been discussed in hundreds of posts. It has been IMOEO
established, that banana pants can survive with their roots submerged in water for long
periods. I also do no longer doubt, that plants have on occasion suffered root rot while
their roots were submerged in water. What I am trying to figure out is, what makes
the difference. At this time I suspect that it is oxygen supply to the water and ultimately
to the roots. That is, where your experiment can be helpful: If you managed to supply
more oxygen to your pond through some form of aeration, and your plant subsequently
recovers, that would be a strong indicator in support of that theory.
I do not see, where my second post in this thread is unduly "controversial". As a
matter of fact, it fits right in with my need for oxygen theory: As the water drains out
through the bottom holes, it sucks air containing oxygen into the voids left between
the soil particles.
I must say this water deal may not be totally too bad an idea.
The pup in water I have, has showed nice roots and two lil pup.
BUT I drilled many extra drain-holes and...
Images deleted for brevity
...I don't want to take it out of water to recover sooo
Hope this will fix my problem... All my other plants are booming in the pond= about 3'-4" deepest 2500-2800 gallons. I have raised the banana plant a little higher as you can see.
The other plants appear to be all swamp or aquatic plants with either less need for
oxygen or being better equipped to withdraw it out of the water. My question is:
Does that "little pump" deliver the water back into the pond with some "splash"
to create aeration? A spray disperser would also help.
Thanks for working on this,
Olaf
jbyrd88888
08-25-2014, 01:22 PM
Hi Justin,
I am not sure, what you are trying to say here. ......suspect that it is oxygen supply to the water and ultimately to the roots. That is, where your experiment can be helpful: If you managed to supply more oxygen to your pond through some form of aeration, and your plant subsequently
recovers, that would be a strong indicator in support of that theory....
I am only trying to establish that there maybe many contributing factors that present root rot and if the given conditions do not supply the plant with its requirements you cannot pinpoint rot as only one deficiency/toxicity or necessity in general.
I used (for both bananas in and outside the pond)
-1/4 perlite
-1/2 peat moss/inorganic mix and
-1/4 jobes natural/organic potting mix. I not so sure I want pure inorganic but we'll see?
Okay yeah, I'll leave the pump on 24/7 and I've raised the water to "splash into" instead of "trickle" onto the surface level of the potted banana.
PR-Giants
08-28-2014, 10:16 AM
I am only trying to establish that there maybe many contributing factors that present root rot and if the given conditions do not supply the plant with its requirements you cannot pinpoint rot as only one deficiency/toxicity or necessity in general.
I used (for both bananas in and outside the pond)
-1/4 perlite
-1/2 peat moss/inorganic mix and
-1/4 jobes natural/organic potting mix. I not so sure I want pure inorganic but we'll see?
Okay yeah, I'll leave the pump on 24/7 and I've raised the water to "splash into" instead of "trickle" onto the surface level of the potted banana.
Thanks Justin, Great Info!
Wicking is an easy way to increase oxygen and the naners will grow faster.
jbyrd88888
09-12-2014, 09:07 AM
Here's an update; how she looks now Sept/12/2014
The one planted in soil looks perfect while the pond water one is recovering (not sure how fast but no more dark spots have appeared) 4 pups are growing on this one but aren't more than 1" tall (slow pups) But this makes me speculate the roots are making much head-way/progress? The water flow maybe 1-2 GPM but it's supplying good non-stop splashing that stays draining
http://i60.tinypic.com/2w5klqp.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/280imc8.jpg
Olafhenny
09-12-2014, 01:31 PM
Here's an update; how she looks now Sept/12/2014
The one planted in soil looks perfect while the pond water one is recovering (not sure how fast but no more dark spots have appeared) 4 pups are growing on this one but aren't more than 1" tall (slow pups) But this makes me speculate the roots are making much head-way/progress? The water flow maybe 1-2 GPM but it's supplying good non-stop splashing that stays draining
Hi Justin,
that is very interesting and if the progress continues, it will strengthen the assertion,
that it is not water per se or over-watering, which causes root rot, but the lack of
oxygen in the water.
Wind sweeps the larger bodies of water, shown in my first post in this thread and
thereby aerates the water sufficiently.
In other words: If you saturate a pot, without drainage at the bottom, with water,
even if there is limited amount of oxygen contained in it, it will be soon depleted
and root rot will likely set in.
However if there are drain holes in the bottom of the pot, the draining water will
suck air (and oxygen) into the voids and thereby keep the roots healthy, even if
the water is replenished frequently. The same goes with your pond. The new
aeration will supply the needed oxygen. Of course full recovery will take some time.
The plant will have to replace the roots, which suffered damage while "suffocating"
and to be visible, the recovery will have to manifest itself in new, healthy growth
Please keep us informed of any further development. Yours is an experiment, which
has the potential to help clear up a lot of questions and presumptions about root rot.
Thank you,
Olaf
Vickie H.
09-12-2014, 07:27 PM
my water bananas earlier this june in a pond with no movement of water and in a pot with yard dirt and holes
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/PHPong/100_6651_zpsbde1349e.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/PHPong/media/100_6651_zpsbde1349e.jpg.html)
jbyrd88888
09-12-2014, 07:59 PM
I assume only foliar fertilizing Vickie? Any fert. in soil? Lots of drain holes???
I concur Olaf,
My biggest dilemma will be around winter, when this water grown banana will be brought inside my GH. I will need to supply much more oxygen to the roots because I would like to keep this specimen aquatic.
In order to supply much more oxygen I will be frequently changing Distilled water as opposed to water from my pond. (reducing algae/build-up on water heater element and a cleaner environment for my basjoos roots).
Of course I'd like to have a diluted addition of Fruit Fuel too.
I would like to install a air stone or some kind of carbon filter in the bottom of the pot to deliver a higher air to water ratio.
My understanding is when the light is reduced and limited and/or the temp. goes down; the roots need more O2 than H2O among few other elements. Is this correct?
While basjoo maybe more hardy than others, this Almost seem like an ill attempt/reckless endeavor...?
I'm looking for tips, hints, or instructions for the best way to go about this?
Vickie H.
09-12-2014, 09:33 PM
no folar feeding fish pooping in water. And in basement in a tub with water 3 inches up side of pot no moving water no fertilizer did this since 2007 and had 6 bananas all winter like that
Olafhenny
09-12-2014, 11:31 PM
Hi Vicky,
Your pond has a fairly large surface area and is not as choked with water plants as Justin's.
Augmenting this would be a good rainstorm once in a while. Did you get those?
Best,
Olaf
Hi Justin,
My biggest dilemma will be around winter, when this water grown banana will be brought inside my GH. I will need to supply much more oxygen to the roots because I would like to keep this specimen aquatic.
In order to supply much more oxygen I will be frequently changing Distilled water as opposed to water from my pond. (reducing algae/build-up on water heater element and a cleaner environment for my basjoos roots).
Of course I'd like to have a diluted addition of Fruit Fuel too.
I would like to install a air stone or some kind of carbon filter in the bottom of the pot to deliver a higher air to water ratio.
My understanding is when the light is reduced and limited and/or the temp. goes down; the roots need more O2 than H2O among few other elements. Is this correct?
While basjoo maybe more hardy than others, this Almost seem like an ill attempt/reckless endeavor...?
I'm looking for tips, hints, or instructions for the best way to go about this?
I am speaking here from total lack of experience, but that has never kept me from
spouting off my opinion. :ha:
But I would not go through all that trouble to try keeping the plant aquatic throughout
the winter, whatever that entails???. I would rather winter it normally in the greenhouse
as you usually do and rely on "retraining" the plant to an aquatic existence in spring. That
is, if we did not have somebody, who has probably valuable experience, on this forum.
Thus I suggest you ask Vicky how she did it. :)
Best,
Olaf
PS: After posting this I noticed, that Vicky has enlightened us already as to how she did it
:)
Vickie H.
09-13-2014, 09:31 AM
That was my pond in June now there is water bananas water lilies water canna and water hibiscus and lotus so it does have many plants. Due to my mom being in a car wreck in July it has been chaos so I have not taken any more pictures I will look for one from previous yrs.
Vickie H.
09-13-2014, 09:46 AM
here is another pic from another yr
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/PHPong/100_6340_zps56cadfa0.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/PHPong/media/100_6340_zps56cadfa0.jpg.html)
Vickie H.
09-13-2014, 09:58 AM
starting a banana in water in 2008 it is still in water. I did this myself to make a water banana
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/PHPong/100_3111.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/PHPong/media/100_3111.jpg.html)
Vickie H.
09-13-2014, 10:04 AM
banana in basement in water one winter when it was smaller. I also keep my water cannas in water all winter in the basement.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/PHPong/100_2810.jpg (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/PHPong/media/100_2810.jpg.html)
jbyrd88888
09-13-2014, 12:29 PM
Hey Vickie I noticed many of your beautiful pictures in past posts and this seems as simple as frugal lighting and a temp maintained above 50°F. I'd would like understand more... Did you leave all lower dead leafs attached until springs and replant them once a year? Fungicide used in water overwintering? I'd like to eliminate stress but the most I can think is to just leave-them-be and let them do their natural thing.
Or upsize pots during a fall transplant? Only organic yard soil!?
Love your photos and plant collection!
How many have you lost with this "root submerged" planting method?
Obviously the more roots=better, so how to encourage?
jbyrd88888
09-13-2014, 03:30 PM
In addition to my growing questions, how many drain holes? Should/could I cover the pot with holes?
How do the roots look during and after wintering inside?
Did many roots grow through the drain holes?-through side or bottom mostly?
I'm not sure if I want to upgrade or downgrade the pot later on, or just leave it?
Olafhenny
09-13-2014, 03:36 PM
My understanding is when the light is reduced and limited and/or the temp. goes down; the roots need more O2 than H2O among few other elements. Is this correct?
Hi Justin,
if our rather well documented assertions about the requirement of oxygen in the
water are correct, then Vicky's experience appears to indicate, that the opposite is
the case: When the metabolism of the plant slows down, the requirement for oxygen
decreases. However this may not be the case, to the same degree, in a well lit
greenhouse.
Of course it may also be, that, once adapted to low oxygen supply, the plant does
not need as much any more. Unfortunately in our limited settings we tend not to
have enough plants available for experimentation. :(
I have tried to look up the impact of light/darkness on oxygen use on the web, but
there are no references to roots, just to assimilation and respiration in the leaves
and any statements on those are quite contradictory. Right now I cannot spend
any more time on this.
Best,
Olaf
Vickie H.
09-14-2014, 04:12 PM
LOL I just pot them in yard dirt put them it the pond and take them in the basement in the winter. I do not trim them in winter I do not feed them I do not repot. I do not worry about fungicide. LOL in other words I do not do much at all. I started with one in 2007. In 2008 I made my own water bananas. I had 6 last winter lost one this spring outside. Took one to a good friend in Memphis in July. Hers is in her pond and is doing well. Hers had 3 pups on it. Two or three of mine out of 4 I have left has pups on them. They pup well. Ido not know if this will work for other people but it works for me. If it isn't broke don't fix it. LOL
Vickie H.
09-14-2014, 04:15 PM
I did forget to say I have a 100 gallon pond in the basement and 6 fish aquariums plus all kinds of plants with 9 shop lights all winter in the basement plus 10 or 12 land banana plants down there all winter too.
jbyrd88888
12-20-2014, 12:43 PM
http://i58.tinypic.com/2d29a47.jpg
This is the one that I let grow in my pond until the last minute... I took it out of the pond to dry out... but left it outside until the leafs got nuked. It is recovering fast which leads me to believe the roots are very happy and established. I will definitely try this to one of each of my naners cultivars next year... if I make it that far. :)
Olafhenny
12-20-2014, 02:30 PM
In addition to my growing questions, how many drain holes? Should/could I cover the pot with holes?
How do the roots look during and after wintering inside?
Did many roots grow through the drain holes?-through side or bottom mostly?
I'm not sure if I want to upgrade or downgrade the pot later on, or just leave it?
Sorry Justin, I noticed this post only today.
The number of holes is immaterial, as is their size, as long as you do not place the pot
under a waterfall. What is important, is that the water can get to the hole once it
reaches the bottom of the pot. I achieve that by placing a few small rocks at the
bottom of the pot, which I then cover with pieces of fly screen for outdoor pots or
ground cover cloth for indoor pots, before I fill in the potting soil mix. The latter
keeps the soil in more securely and your catching tray more clean.
cincinnana
12-23-2014, 07:45 PM
Saw it with my camera ... Pinders Nursery .. Palm City ,Florida.
Raja Puri . Wet feet ...... Olaf I was thinking about you..!:08:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/110357684@N02/16089312671" title="Untitled by Hostafarian, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7534/16089312671_3b14a8f1a9_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Untitled"></a>
.<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/110357684@N02/16089305901" title="Untitled by Hostafarian, on Flickr"><img src="https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7497/16089305901_18285866d2_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Untitled"></a>
sunfish
12-23-2014, 10:15 PM
The brain trust
jbyrd88888
12-23-2014, 10:23 PM
Paul Reubens
sunfish
12-23-2014, 10:32 PM
Door knob
jbyrd88888
12-23-2014, 10:55 PM
YES! Everyone gets a turn, duh.
sunfish
12-23-2014, 11:29 PM
Maybe if you talk about it long enough the facts will change
cincinnana
12-28-2014, 09:54 PM
.
jbyrd88888
12-28-2014, 10:23 PM
LOL I think you are referring to peewees lame attempt to cut me down...0
cincinnana
03-19-2015, 05:49 PM
.
sunfish
03-19-2015, 08:16 PM
What facts Sir?...what am I missing here??
Just posting bananas growing in/near water that are doing well.
First who said I was responding to something you posted sir ?
sunfish
03-19-2015, 08:17 PM
LOL I think you are referring to peewees lame attempt to cut me down...0
You are a punk no question about it
cincinnana
03-19-2015, 08:41 PM
First who said I was responding to something you posted sir ?
.
Olafhenny
03-19-2015, 09:22 PM
Tony has always been very cryptic in his comments, but lately they have become rather
incoherent. Maybe in a lame attempt to surround himself with an enigmatic aura. :)
I would not take his ruminations to seriously. Sometimes I think he posts anything at
all, just out of plain boredom.
sunfish
03-19-2015, 11:01 PM
Tony has always been very cryptic in his comments, but lately they have become rather
incoherent. Maybe in a lame attempt to surround himself with an enigmatic aura. :)
I would not take his ruminations to seriously. Sometimes I think he posts anything at
all, just out of plain boredom.
Okay Indiana Jones
sunfish
03-19-2015, 11:20 PM
Tony has always been very cryptic in his comments, but lately they have become rather
incoherent. Maybe in a lame attempt to surround himself with an enigmatic aura. :)
I would not take his ruminations to seriously. Sometimes I think he posts anything at
all, just out of plain boredom.
At least I don't post BS .Your little thanks is real cute merci .What a joke
Olafhenny
03-20-2015, 12:05 AM
At least I don't post BS .Your little thanks is real cute merci .What a joke
No, no BS, just starting a brand new thread with with nothing but an unrelated bunch of parsley
and another giving the location of Bulgaria, which related to nothing in this forum and a photo
of a buzzer with "sound effects". - All stuff, which is very pertinent to this forum. :ha:
sunfish
03-20-2015, 12:15 AM
No, no BS, just starting a brand new thread with with nothing but an unrelated bunch of parsley
and another giving the location of Bulgaria, which related to nothing in this forum and a photo
of a buzzer with "sound effects". - All stuff, which is very pertinent to this forum. :ha:
It's all real Indy not make believe discoveries.Do you know reality from make believe ?
jbyrd88888
03-20-2015, 06:27 PM
Haha Fish! Should stop listening to those voices in your head.
sunfish
03-20-2015, 07:05 PM
Haha Fish! Should stop listening to those voices in your head.
You are what you are nothing but a mouth
I've heard of people successfully growing bananas in semi-hydro.
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