Log in

View Full Version : Anyone have proof pups hurt mother plant?


blownz281
08-29-2012, 06:28 PM
I have a 10ft or more Orinoco and it has five pups. Four are about five feet tall,other is smaller. How bad is this hurting the mother plant?

sunfish
08-29-2012, 07:06 PM
Not enough that you will notice

blownz281
08-29-2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks

RandyGHO
08-29-2012, 07:48 PM
The educators and professional write-ups all suggest the loss is in the banana yield.

A lot of man-hours go into sucker removal I can't imagine the professional growers not expecting something for their effort.

sunfish
08-29-2012, 07:55 PM
I don't think many here are growing their fruit for market or have a plantation. I also believe pup removal is for ease of spraying getting equipment in.For the hobby grower I doubt it amounts to a hill of beans

LilRaverBoi
08-29-2012, 10:43 PM
I agree....based on personal experience and what I've read from many growers here on the org with years of experience, pups do not negatively affect the growth of the main plant (at least with any significance). I see so many people on this site asking whether or not they should remove pups. The main reason to remove pups is to propagate to other areas....which probably should not be done till the plant has 3+ pups.

Bananas like to form mats.....just let them do it.

venturabananas
08-30-2012, 01:41 AM
I have a 10ft or more Orinoco and it has five pups. Four are about five feet tall,other is smaller. How bad is this hurting the mother plant?

It's not hurting it at all. Pup removal is not required. Commercial growers do it because because too many pups can compete for sun, nutrients, and water. Based on published scientific studies, plants that have had most pups removed ripen fruit faster and make bigger fruit and heavier bunches. An untended mat (pups left in place) will produce roughly the same amount of fruit as de-suckered mats, but those pounds of fruit will be distributed among more plants that have smaller bunches and smaller fruit. As Tony noted, active de-suckering can make it easier to manage the plantation (move equipment around), and help with the efficiency of harvesting -- keeping fruiting plants in synch.

Since you are not in the tropics, if you are leaving your plants in the ground over winter, a large mat where you've left all the pups might have a better chance of pulling through winter in good condition.

G.W.
08-30-2012, 01:56 AM
Does a sucker on a mat grow faster than if the same sucker was seperated and grown alone?

If growth speed was the same then suckers contibute or are neutral.
If suckers grow faster on the mat, then they must be a drag.

If the mat grows a sucker, then the sucker grows roots.
If the sucker on a mat grows roots, then there are MORE TOTAL ROOTS on the mat.

If the mat is in a container then suckers can compete for root space.
Otherwise they must help the overall health by increasing leaf/root area.


THAT being said, I desucker.
I'll be sticking to 4 stems per mat, maybe 2 on the specimen plants.

venturabananas
08-30-2012, 12:26 PM
If growth speed was the same then suckers contibute or are neutral.
If suckers grow faster on the mat, then they must be a drag.


I agree with the rest of what GW said, but this part, which is otherwise logical, ignores the fact that separating a sucker causes significant stress to it (due to physical damage) and so it initially, after separation, will grow more slowly off the mat.

Abnshrek
08-30-2012, 01:00 PM
I have a 6 week old pup that is 4' of p-stem, if that energy went to the mother it would have more leaves.. Hail Corm power.. :^)

sunfish
08-30-2012, 01:27 PM
Potato Potahto

Nicolas Naranja
08-30-2012, 02:39 PM
I think it somewhat depends on your plant spacing. If you have plants every 5' in a row, then you will probably lose significant yield due to pups, however if you only have a tree every 15' or 20' you probably won't notice.

sunfish
08-30-2012, 04:00 PM
DESUCKERING TRIAL ON PARANTA BANANA (MUSA ABB GROUP) (http://www.actahort.org/books/123/123_14.htm)

RandyGHO
08-30-2012, 05:19 PM
It is my intent to maintain zero suckers till fruit. It just seems to me that having a single p-stem mound will yield the backyard hobbiest with the best chance for a good yield per plant. Then a pup or TC planting in a new mound would will take place in spring to start. Crazy probably but I love to try new ways of doing things just to see how things work.

From "Banana production in India"

Desuckering : During the life cycle, banana produces number of suckers from the underground stem. If all these suckers are allowed to grow, they grow at the expense of the growth of the main plant and hence the growth of the sucker should be discouraged. Removal of unwanted suckers is one of the most critical operations in banana cultivation and is known as desuckering. Such suckers are removed either by cutting them off or the heart may be destroyed without detaching the sucker from the parent plant. Removal of suckers with a portion of corm at an interval of 5-6 weeks hastened shooting and increased the yield.

sunfish
08-30-2012, 05:26 PM
Whats a good yield per plant ?

RandyGHO
08-30-2012, 05:30 PM
Whats a good yield per plant ?

Maybe a better choice of words would have been "maximum yield."

bananaT
08-30-2012, 06:05 PM
Just my penny here.

From what Iv seen recently with my bananas; the suckers do play a role in nourishing the whole Matt.

My Orinoco's are in full out banana mode. The fruiting stalks though are losing their leaves. I'm not sure why.
The suckers are remaining lush and vibrant.
Unless I'm wrong, and there is enough stored energy in the corms to support fruit without leaves. The suckers, of witch I allow 3 of, are in some manner supporting the the fruit of the mother plant.


As for sucker numbers. I allow 3 per mother plant. All the others are removed and planted elsewhere.
The "mother" being the oldest plant after the original dies back.

With 3, it allows me to have a secession of fruiting talks.
Getting 2 bunches a year. From the mother and the largest sucker, both having over wintered, with the 3rd & 4th to fruit next year.
You have to time when you allow the suckers to grow, but it works nicely.

venturabananas
08-30-2012, 06:50 PM
Maybe a better choice of words would have been "maximum yield."

What's the yield when the plant blows over, or some other mishap occurs? I view suckers as and insurance policy and an anchor for the mother plant.

LilRaverBoi
08-30-2012, 08:45 PM
It is my intent to maintain zero suckers till fruit. It just seems to me that having a single p-stem mound will yield the backyard hobbiest with the best chance for a good yield per plant.
Maintaining zero suckers may increase yield slightly, but probably not significantly. And more importantly, without pups, after fruiting, you have to restart from the ground up for the next plant to fruit (whereas having pups on there ensures a shorter duration of time till next fruiting). Just a thought.

sunfish
08-30-2012, 08:54 PM
:woohoonaner:


Cookies Required - CAB Direct (http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20013119353.html;jsessionid=796455DAD4FE53FC9636581B0A796F83)

Abnshrek
08-30-2012, 09:03 PM
I like that Tony... I knew if you didn't cut the Mother P-stem off at the ground the pups would absorb all that energy.. Just cutting the mother off at the ground after flowering just doesn't make sense.. :^)

sunfish
08-30-2012, 09:50 PM
Growing Bananas - How To Grow Banana Plants And Keep Them Happy (http://www.tropicalpermaculture.com/growing-bananas.html)

PR-Giants
08-30-2012, 10:20 PM
After 15 years of collecting data, these are my minimum expectations of a mat without removing any suckers.

First Year Production = X

Second Year Production = X * 4 * .85

Third Year Production = X * 10 * .85 * .85

Forth Year Production = X * 10 * .85 * .85

Here is a photo of a mat in the second year of production, you can see 3 bunches which should account for about 75 % of the minimum yield for the entire second year.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50381&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50381)

It is silly to think a mat can not produce mulitple quality bunches at the same time.
I do it without the use of chemical fertilizers or manure.


This plant and this photo from UPR might be a better example of what is possible.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50382&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50382)

G.W.
08-31-2012, 10:51 AM
I don't think that UPR pic is a mat Kieth.
It looks like a Mahoi. Those look like DC flowers.
Gabe said he's seen a Mahoi with 7 bunches before it ... I forget... failed... became overstressed...something.

Data is what makes the world turn nowadays.
Do I understand your math correctly that the third year would bear 7.225 if X=1
1X10X.85X.85=7.225


What is your spacing?
How about the third year after spreading?
How many total P stem 3rd year including pups/peepers?
Thank you for taking part in this forum and don't mind the hobby/container/Zone 6 sorts.


If growth speed was the same then suckers contibute or are neutral.
If suckers grow faster on the mat, then they must be a drag.


I agree with the rest of what GW said, but this part, which is otherwise logical, ignores the fact that separating a sucker causes significant stress to it (due to physical damage) and so it initially, after separation, will grow more slowly off the mat.

Yes I made an inexact comparison @4AM :2738:

I agree that desuckering stresses the sucker but wasn't comfortable assigning a value to the generated stress. What do you figure -5? :ha:
Also, we are talking about the mother here so amputated pup's stress levels are OT.

Now that I'm OT.......... the two plant mother-follower system so common on plantations may be partially due to fungus problems.
As mats get large and crowded it's hard to trim dead leaves.
Infected leaf removal is part of Sigatoka management.

Kinda like you might shave if there was an outbreak of lice or crabs in close quarters living.
It'd be a lot harder if you had 17 heads. :birthdaynana:

venturabananas
08-31-2012, 12:23 PM
I think Nick made the key point: desuckering only matters if some key element (nutrients, water, or light) for growth is limiting. (Though disease transmission is an issue, too, in the tropics.) If all those things are supplied in excess of the plant's needs, desuckering shouldn't do a thing. I would speculate that the reason why desuckering normally has an effect (at least in peer-reviewed, published studies) is that one or more of those things is limited in the experimental test plots -- as it is in most plantations due to relatively high plant densities.

Outside of ideal banana growing zones, where many of us live, just getting bananas to flower at the right time of year for the bananas to fill well is a more pressing challenge than maximizing yield per stem. A single, massive flower that emerges just before the first frost of the year is worthless. More stems increases your chances of at least one flower emerging at an optimum time. On top of that, all the published studies I've come across indicate that more stems per mat results in more total yield per unit area, though at the expense of bunch weight and individual fruit weight. If you are a commercial grower, finger weight affects marketability. If you are growing for your own consumption, maybe you don't care much about it and would rather have more total pounds of bananas, though each fruit is on the smaller side.

In short, I think the answer to whether and how much you should desucker is, as usual, "it depends" -- on your climate, your plant spacing, your watering and fert regimes, and your goals: more pounds of fruit or larger individual fruits.

PS -- I think that for my goals, considering my climate, etc., GW's formula of about 4 stems per plant is also about right for me, too. But I don't think 4 is a magic number.

blownz281
08-31-2012, 12:36 PM
Thanks everyone great info. I feel the same as in a plant wouldn't give off baby plants if it was a down fall of the main plants health and well being. Some plants will give off growth in another area in the case the mother plant is unhealthy and the plant is searching for a better soil.

PR-Giants
08-31-2012, 12:53 PM
I don't think that UPR pic is a mat Kieth.
It looks like a Mahoi. Those look like DC flowers.
Gabe said he's seen a Mahoi with 7 bunches before it ... I forget... failed... became overstressed...something.

Data is what makes the world turn nowadays.
Do I understand your math correctly that the third year would bear 7.225 if X=1
1X10X.85X.85=7.225


What is your spacing?
How about the third year after spreading?
How many total P stem 3rd year including pups/peepers?
Thank you for taking part in this forum and don't mind the hobby/container/Zone 6 sorts.





Yes I made an inexact comparison @4AM :2738:

I agree that desuckering stresses the sucker but wasn't comfortable assigning a value to the generated stress. What do you figure -5? :ha:
Also, we are talking about the mother here so amputated pup's stress levels are OT.

Now that I'm OT.......... the two plant mother-follower system so common on plantations may be partially due to fungus problems.
As mats get large and crowded it's hard to trim dead leaves.
Infected leaf removal is part of Sigatoka management.

Kinda like you might shave if there was an outbreak of lice or crabs in close quarters living.
It'd be a lot harder if you had 17 heads. :birthdaynana:

Sorry about that, I assumed everyone would realize that was a Double w/ multiple bunches and it doesn't matter if it has pups or is alone.

You understood the math perfectly, althought it does not include a variable for your shorter growing season. My third year would produce a minimum yield of 7.225 times the average single planting bunch size.

I did not want to complicate matters by including spacing. My spacing is a pattern simimlar to a densely packed orchard in which entire rows are eliminated later as the mat grows.

How about the third year after spreading? ---- Spreading what?

How many total P stem 3rd year including pups/peepers? ---- Never counted them and not interested.

This photo is a second year of a mat.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50443&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50443)


Leaf management for fungus problems and pup management is fairly simple.
The lower leaves of the large plants are removed and the next group of suckers regularly have their tops removed. This group grows slower without leaves and is easier to manage while they are in the "on deck circle".

sunfish
08-31-2012, 01:03 PM
Not much different than thinning fruit on say an apple tree. Fewer but larger fruit

bananaT
08-31-2012, 01:35 PM
:0493: One wonders how you can understand any of this.

So I gather; Lots of stalks = more fruit poundage, but smaller fruits overall.
Less stalks = less fruit poundage, but larger fruit....
Is that the gist of whats being discussed?

PR-Giants
08-31-2012, 02:02 PM
If you are a commercial grower, finger weight affects marketability.

This is a very good point and explains why I grow ARH.

Marketability or Grade A is 10 oz. for a platano, an ARH fruit is normally between 20 to 56 ounces.

Growing ARH in a mat is a perfect choice for me, because even if a 15 oz fruit is produced it will be considered Grade A Quality. Another good reason is if it needed to be harvested at 40 days instead of 80 days, most fruit on single hands are already 24 oz.

venturabananas
08-31-2012, 02:11 PM
:0493: One wonders how you can understand any of this.

So I gather; Lots of stalks = more fruit poundage, but smaller fruits overall.
Less stalks = less fruit poundage, but larger fruit....
Is that the gist of whats being discussed?

Yes, that's my take on it!

RandyGHO
08-31-2012, 03:08 PM
Not much different than thinning fruit on say an apple tree. Fewer but larger fruit

I think I dislike thinning the most. It get the feeling it is just plain wrong to pop off those so many little apples and peaches.

Now that I think about it. I get the same feeling when I cut off a sucker from my bananas. And when I leave them on the mound, there is almost a grotesqueness around the display of dying, tiny banana plants. Must be why so many people pot them. Just seems wrong not too.:)

Nicolas Naranja
08-31-2012, 11:56 PM
So I gather; Lots of stalks = more fruit poundage, but smaller fruits overall.
Less stalks = less fruit poundage, but larger fruit....
Is that the gist of whats being discussed?

I think that fruit size is more controlled at the bunch level. What I have seen to some extent is that if you do not desucker you tend to get bunches with fewer hands. Commercially, the goal is to maximize the number of marketable fruits on a hand. So, not only do I desucker, I also prune my bunches. I've had very good results.

bananaT
09-01-2012, 01:01 AM
I think that fruit size is more controlled at the bunch level. What I have seen to some extent is that if you do not desucker you tend to get bunches with fewer hands. Commercially, the goal is to maximize the number of marketable fruits on a hand. So, not only do I desucker, I also prune my bunches. I've had very good results.

This is good to know.
I set up at a local Flea market every once in awhile, to sell stuff that I grow.
I'm really interested in bananas for this.
People always want the largest prettiest fruit though.

How do you go about pruning your bunches? Do you lop off the bell after a certain number of fruit has appeared, or do you wait till the male flowers start showing then selectively prune different hands?

sunfish
09-01-2012, 06:27 PM
EFFECT OF MALE BUD REMOVAL ON THE YIELD OF MUSA GENOTYPES IN A HUMID FOREST ZONE OF WEST AFRICA (http://www.actahort.org/books/540/540_32.htm)

Abnshrek
09-04-2012, 08:51 PM
I can say the pups (2) can only help my Ice Cream w/ its flower seeing it only has 3 leaves.. I doubt it will have any fruit but we'll see.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50402&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50402)

sunfish
09-04-2012, 08:55 PM
I can say the pups (2) can only help my Ice Cream w/ its flower seeing it only has 3 leaves.. I doubt it will have any fruit but we'll see.
http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50402&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50402)

I would cut off the pups to give more energy to the mother plant :)

G.W.
09-04-2012, 11:35 PM
I would pile on the fertilizer to grow the pups faster.

waggoner41
01-06-2013, 01:41 PM
After 15 years of collecting data, these are my minimum expectations of a mat without removing any suckers.

First Year Production = X

Second Year Production = X * 4 * .85

Third Year Production = X * 10 * .85 * .85

Forth Year Production = X * 10 * .85 * .85

Here is a photo of a mat in the second year of production, you can see 3 bunches which should account for about 75 % of the minimum yield for the entire second year.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50381&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50381)

It is silly to think a mat can not produce mulitple quality bunches at the same time.
I do it without the use of chemical fertilizers or manure.


This plant and this photo from UPR might be a better example of what is possible.

http://www.bananas.org/gallery/watermark.php?file=50382&size=1 (http://www.bananas.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=50382)

Perhaps you might provide the original URL for the information that comes along with the bottom photo.

Is it the variety that is capable of multiple bunches or some other reason?

Yuri Barros
01-06-2013, 04:24 PM
I love the look of old and large Mats...................

But I have some considerations about that...............

Large Mats here at least in my city............have weevil problems............

I desucker..................using a digging bar..............and I remove all pups in very young stage..................and I replant all...............

I remove young pups due the size of the wound I inflict in the Mother..........I mean smaller pups = smaller wounds.........................

I just leave the Daughter Plant..............and if the daughter have pups........I just leave one (always in the opposite direction).............and I remove the other pups..................

The Plants manage in this way grows thicker and faster................


This is they way I do..........

Brotos da bananeira Conceito - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwjnegybTcc)

Back again about weevil problems................this manage helps to keep the soil aroud the Mat very clean............and this avoid weevil that have no place to hide from the Ants...............and other predators..............

Also I try to mantain a healthy population of Fire Ants here..............

Weevil is a big problem................


Another tool that people use here is called "lurdinha".............and here there is a video with the tool project................if one wish to make one............

Banana Desbaste.wmv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Frq9rHAg4)


This video doesn´t show............but you can use this tool to kill young pups..............if you have a large plantation............

Here in this link...........you can see a person removing young pups for demonstration of this tool and techinique...........

Agência de Informação Embrapa Desbaste (http://www.agencia.cnptia.embrapa.br/Agencia40/AG01/arvore/AG01_5_41020068054.html)

waggoner41
01-06-2013, 05:20 PM
Growing Bananas - How To Grow Banana Plants And Keep Them Happy (http://www.tropicalpermaculture.com/growing-bananas.html)

Using the information provided at tropicalpermaculture.com was highly valuable to me. I copied the information and translated to Spanish for the kids to read. With my poor Spanish it is difficult to provide the information by spoken word.

PR-Giants
01-07-2013, 02:52 AM
Perhaps you might provide the original URL for the information that comes along with the bottom photo.

Is it the variety that is capable of multiple bunches or some other reason?

These are the same links that are on your Member Introduction page.

Results of your search: MAY Musa acuminata (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/tax_site_acc.pl?MAY%20Musa%20acuminata)

TARS 17177 - Musa acuminata - Guineo Doble - Puerto Rico (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/display.pl?1647264)


http://www.bananas.org/f11/growing-costa-rica-17302.html#post212446


Welcome Aboard & Good Luck

IITA Research guides (http://old.iita.org/cms/details/trn_mat/irg66/irg661.html)

Banana and Plantain crops - IITA (http://www.iita.org/banana-and-plaintain)

Results of your search: MAY Musa hybr (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/tax_site_acc.pl?MAY%20Musa%20hybr).

Results of your search: MAY Musa acuminata (http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/tax_site_acc.pl?MAY%20Musa%20acuminata)

http://www.haifa-group.com/files/guides/banana.pdf

http://www.musalit.org/pdf/IN100330_en.pdf

Promusa - Mobilizing banana science for sustainable livelihoods | Tools (http://www.promusa.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=18)

Banana (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/banana.html)

http://136.145.83.33:8000/jspui/bitstream/10476/787/1/Vol.%2090%20p.173-182.pdf

http://www.fhia.org.hn/dowloads/info_hibridos/fhia03.pdf

2woodensticks
01-07-2013, 12:05 PM
how old is the mother??has she not fruited??was she a sword or water pup??or a TC??just to say..i have a mother that was a water pup..3 of her kids have grown up and fruited befor she did..and i never removed them..she is fruiting right now,and her three other pups have fruited and been cut down already