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Old 08-26-2008, 10:02 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default universal healthcare

Having a look at the map of where the bananas.org people live shows a lot live in europe, a lot in the USA and a smattering of people in Asia, Australasia, Central and South America and the Carribean.

The europeans will know about universal healthcare, the aussies and kiwis will. But the COTUSAs (learnt that one years ago Citizens Of The USA) refuse to consider what is a right for so many people throughout the world.

So why is there so much opposition to healthcare for everyone?

It's probably a touchy subject as you come up to your elections, just thought some of you with experience of the no free helathcare system might like to discuss with those who have experience with free total health care (e.g. the Poms, Dutch, Germans, French) who are members here

With Australia we have universal healthcare with an american twist - some services charge more than the base rate and that's where the system falls down. You have to prove you are a poverty liner or pay the difference between the free rate and the greedy rate. I'm a poverty liner.
And we also don't have free dental - which is surprising considering so much of your health is dependent on your having a healthy mouth to eat and drnk and breath through

The biggest proportion of Australias health care bill is keeping smokers alive for the last 6 weeks of their lives - the palliative care for those dying from smokers diseases. I used to know the statistics - but that was a long time ago - tens of billions of the public health dollar over here is spent on this

Someone has to pay - and after years of dying slowly those who need the palliative care can't afford it unless it comes from the public purse.
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Old 08-27-2008, 12:54 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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Originally Posted by paradisi View Post
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

. . . .. . . . .. But the COTUSAs (learnt that one years ago Citizens Of The USA) refuse to consider what is a right for so many people throughout the world.
That is your opinion. I know of some Canadians that don't like the long waits for major healthcare procedures in their country. As a matter of fact, those that can afford the treatment come to the US. I read where a doctor from Canada even wrote in one newspaper's editorial page that if the US gets universal healthcare, he may not have any place to send his patients to, who might require urgent health care.

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So why is there so much opposition to healthcare for everyone?
As one who has been unemployed so many times and has been without medical insurance, I can appreciate getting free healthcare. But neither I nor my family ever received free healthcare. I can appreciate also, not being forced to pay for someone else's medical bills, because sometimes, I can hardly pay for my own. There is also a perception that once there is universal healthcare, the quality of care will go down a lot.

At least that is the perception. I don't know if that's true. One thing I know is that prescription medication is so much cheaper in Canada. And I don't believe it has anything to do with universal healthcare. I believe it has more to do with the drug companies charging a lot more in the US.

I am fortunate to be living in a state that has a common border with Canada. During the times that I do not have medical insurance, I'm glad to be able to take a 2 and a half hour drive to Vancouver, BC once every 3 months to purchase my wife's medication. They cost us almost $800 per month for her meds at the local Costco. But buying them from the Costco there, they cost just over $600 for 3 months. (There are Costco stores opening in Australia soon, if not already.) I could get the prescription filled for 6 months, but the US feds at the border stations will only allow a 3 month supply.

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It's probably a touchy subject as you come up to your elections, just thought some of you with experience of the no free helathcare system might like to discuss with those who have experience with free total health care (e.g. the Poms, Dutch, Germans, French) who are members here
It is indeed pretty touchy. Most of the politicians that are in favor of it are mostly stinking rich and the additional tax to them is so negligible. So, they don't know how it will affect the ordinary person's pocketbook. The additional tax to one's income would further reduce the amount he may have budgeted for food, shelter, and/or clothing. And those rich politicians will still be able to go to their own private caregivers.
. . . . . . . . . . . .... . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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Someone has to pay - . . . . . . . . .. . .
From a purely humanitarian standpoint, yes. That's why most people donate to their favorite charity.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:42 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

As of 2005 over 50% of all US personal bankruptcies were from medical bills. Even if you are fortunate enough to be able to pay the insane premiums for health care they will find a way to screw you when you really get sick and you'll die poor and bitter.

Since the housing market crash those stats may have changed but you get the point. We do need a change in this country. I don't claim to have an answer but what we have now is not working.

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Old 08-27-2008, 04:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

Chong - the prescription medicines in Canada and in Australia (new zealand, england scotland, ireland, france, holland and the rest of the EU) are subsidised as part of the health care system

In all of those countries - if you visit as a foreigner you have to pay the full price - and the full price is astronomical.

I pay $5 for 40 tramadol..... online - they are available for $72 for 90 supposedly cheap.

goodness knows what you have to pay in the USA

I use the tramadol to get from day to day - a very heavy pain killer for the pain associated with my broken back..... if I didn't have pain relief walking would be next to impossible

I'm not unusual.

Why should anyone be put in a position where they can't walk because they can't afford medicine?

User pays is fine. But with people who have trouble walking without pain scripts (and mine is a very simple case, I know many who suffer more than I do) usually aren't in a highly paid job and are poverty liners through no fault of their own. My back was broken playing rugby in the days before general insurance was available for players. But the insurance wouldn't have helped - the broken back wasn't diagnosed for 25 years, it was only with advances in medicine and the free availability of computerised magnetic resonance machines that a specialist found the break at the cause of all my trouble. Because of calcium growths and muscle & nerve growths around the site nothing can be done exceot for pain alleviation. Maybe with advancements in surgery techniques there will be hope in the future, but again, only if the free medical system stays.

and relying on charities for health care LOL

I've read the papers. I know about red cross and the twin towers. I know by far the biggest benefit to a charity is keeping the money people donate.
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:30 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: universal healthcare

Here in Quebec, people have mixed feelings about the health system. Well most do agree that free healthcare is a good thing, but most are complaining about the taxes we pay for it... lol For information, our meds are subsidized by the government (but you need to buy insurance - mandatory, may it be from the government or private). You have to pay fully for dental care, but kids get free dental care.

There are a lot of problems with free healthcare as well: emergency rooms are packed, there is a shortage of doctors and nurses, and recently some hospitals had to close beds due to a lack in personnel and urgent need for renovations. A lot of patients die while being on the list for surgery, because the wait is sooo long. Those who can afford it go to the US to get treated. Many doctors here leave for places where salary is much higher (ie US), but do their studies here where it is much cheaper. Because of that, our gov has signed contracts with the private sector which will process some patients in urgent need of care. Much opposition there...

I would think that the major thing that would make people oppose free healthcare is a rise in taxes... I think that culture has a lot to do as well (value of money, individuals vs society, etc). Here in Quebec, people are very leftist - maybe more than the rest of Canada, because of our history (French Canadians, that is pretty complicated lol).
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Old 09-15-2008, 06:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

I would rather pay my healthcare premiums than pay the tax rate that most countries pay that have free heathcare. Its much cheaper for me to do that. I think the problem with a lot of Americans is they would rather buy 30,000 dollar cars then pay for health insurance. I think a lot more people would have it and be able to afford it if they used a budget like they are suppose to.
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Old 09-15-2008, 08:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

There are many variables in the entire equation. There are no easy answers, but certainly when evaluating government controlled healthcare, some raw nerves are exposed.
The same holds true with many liability insurance coverages, be it car insurance, medical malpractice, general liability - a lawyer is attrributed with this paraphrased quote: 'People insist that their insurance be priced as though they will never have an at-fault accident, or ever be found negligent, yet demand the unalienable right to bring suit for any misfortune that befalls them, however incidental it may be.'
Ever wonder why prescriptions cost so much? Product liability insurance has a major impact on research. While this is not an effort to defend pharmaceutical companies, it is a factor that cannot be ignored. As a whole, we are an extremely litigious society here in the U.S.A. and unless or until we solve this issue, I don't believe that we will find any answers soon.
As for Government run healthcare, we have it - Medicare and Medicaid. Will it cover you completely? Is it cost-effective?
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: universal healthcare

I'll just add that I get my care from the Veteran's Administration, and the care and service for me is first-rate at this government program.
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:35 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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As for Government run healthcare, we have it - Medicare and Medicaid. Will it cover you completely? Is it cost-effective?
These are fine if you don't OWN anything and can qualify for them. I have a very poor friend who broke her leg severely and had to have major surgery and they did a great job for her, but she owns nothing and makes a poverty income while supporting a child that her EX doesn't pay a dime for.

Me and my family don't qualify for either of those programs. We pay a ton in premiums for nothing so far, knock on wood, yet they keep raising our rates, and I know that if something serious were to happen the insurance companies will try to find a way to squirm out of covering our bills leaving us with no options but to sell our house or file BK or both!
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

The last thing we need is the government trying to run another program. Gosh, they do so well with everything else! Higher taxes, longer waits to see doctors (if you don't die first), etc. Sounds like a great idea, where do I sign up?

We need reform, and Scot touched on part of it. You can sue your doctor, health insurance company, your neighbor, the bus driver...and there is really no limit on the amount. It makes some doctors scared to even touch you, or your case. This is one huge reason why our premiums keep going up! Yes, hold people liable for their mistakes, but put a reasonable cap on it. You shouldn't be able to sue for 100 million dollars and win. That's just ridiculous and greedy.

A lot of people like to sit around the house all day, while waiting for their welfare checks, and complain incessantly about things. Most of these people need to get off of their lazy butts, get a job, and join the rest of society. Don't tell me that they can't, because they can, they just won't. Yes, I know some people truly can't...

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

[quote=momoese;52592]These are fine if you don't OWN anything and can qualify for them. I have a very poor friend who broke her leg severely and had to have major surgery and they did a great job for her, but she owns nothing and makes a poverty income while supporting a child that her EX doesn't pay a dime for.

QUOTE]

There always should be a net for people who truly are poor until they are able to turn it around, I just don't think it should be for everyone. Why should the government pay for insurance for people who can afford it? I also don't believe in tax credits either but thats another issue.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:07 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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There always should be a net for people who truly are poor until they are able to turn it around, I just don't think it should be for everyone. Why should the government pay for insurance for people who can afford it? I also don't believe in tax credits either but thats another issue.
You're missing my point. The point is that the insurance companies are screwing people when they need the help that they have paid in some cases their whole life for. And then their is the pharmaceuticals problem. Price gouging is rampant and should be dealt with. I don't give a crap that this is a free market and they are private companies, supply and demand etc. BS, they have us over a pickle barrel and then the government says you can't go to another country to buy. What a crock!

The system has issues and needs work. It's not working when half of all BK's are from medical bills. That's not good for the country or it's people.

And BTW, the truly poor almost never "turn it around" They don't have the resources to do that. It takes money to make money.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:44 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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And BTW, the truly poor almost never "turn it around" They don't have the resources to do that. It takes money to make money.
People are poor for a reason. You make your life into what it is.

I have had to have surgery and my insurance company paid just as they agreed to in my policy.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:44 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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And BTW, the truly poor almost never "turn it around" They don't have the resources to do that. It takes money to make money.
People stay poor for a reason. You make your life into what it is.

I have had to have surgery and my insurance company paid just as they agreed to in my policy.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

Universal health care is merely a transfer of wealth from those who have means to those who do not.
If a person does not have health care, would it not be incumbent upon them to try to maintain good health and avoid the need for health care that they cannot afford? Statistics show that younger adults are more likely to not carry health insurance than other demographics and it makes sense, as they are less likely to be sick (although more likely to be injured).
As to me, my perfect health plan would be major medical (surgery, hospitalization, etc) and a drug plan. I would then pay only for regular visits and tests. Others may want other options.

But in every case, I think that everyone should pay something toward their own health insurance, if they want insurance.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

There may come a day when you need serious medical attention and your insurance company is going to bail on you saying that it was a pre existing condition, or you failed to disclose that when you were 3 you had the chicken pox, or some other such nonsense. I hope that if that happens to you or someone you know you'll remember what I said here.

Oh and btw, you keep arguing against universal health care as if that's what we are talking about. I simply said that the system we have now is not working and needs to be fixed. I also said I don't have the answer.

I'm going to say this one more time. Over half the BK's in this country are from medical bills. A lot of those are from people like you and me who thought the insurance had their backs only to find that not to be the case. These same people have lost houses, business, basically had their whole lives destroyed by these insurance companies who screwed them.

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Old 10-01-2008, 05:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: universal healthcare

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I would think that the major thing that would make people oppose free healthcare is a rise in taxes... I think that culture has a lot to do as well (value of money, individuals vs society, etc).
I totally agree that culture plays a huge part of the way of thinking.
Since moving to Mexico I've gained a new respect for how certain things are done in the states, and apprecation for how things are done a bit different down here. In the US you can't pay to get out of going to court for a crime(but high payed lawyers sometimes tip the scales of justice in both places). Down here voting day is on Sunday, so more people that are working during the week and have other obligations have a better chance to vote on the weekend. There are both plus' and minus' to both places, but people seem to think that their own countries system is far superior, and ussaly have alot of patriotic fervor no matter what country they live.
In Sweden(if I'm not mistaken) taxes are nearly 50% of income, but people there seem to be used to it, and if they are mad, I doubt free health care would be the first on the chopping block. In the US it seems pretty much the same, taxes paid and not too much uproar, even though by some estimates the largest percent of it is now spent on military applications. I'm not sure how many people favor this, but at least a large minority favor the new war on terror, although before the war on terror something like 30% of taxes were spent on military, so it has increased significantly. This seems rather funny compared with Canada who has a much smaller economy, but per capita spends much less on military. There was a dispute a few years back with a cargo vessel that had nearly Canada's entire military onboard, and the cargo company held the military equipment for ranson until some disputed bill was paid. If you wanted to imagine that happening with the US, you'd have to envision a cargo ship the size of Antartica. There are many US bases that could be considered obsolete in very remote parts of the globe, but are still funded, which seems wrong when there are kids who go hungry in the US(but that's normal in many countries).
At anyrate I think everyone should look at how OTHER countries do things for improvement, because as with the individual, no one is perfect, and much can be gained by using others as examples.
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