Yug

Not my thread, ask the thread starter. I was wondering about the motivation for starting it, too, but was not curious enought to ask the question.

I don't know about others, but reading a flame not directed at me might add amusement to my day or give me some measure of pleasure - especially if I knew that the target was richly deserving of it. It would definitely satisfy my sense of justice. At the very least, it would pique my curiousity as to what caused it in the first place - I might discover someone's dark side that I had been previously unaware of (and then I'd be smart enough to avoid). I would certainly not absorb any 'ugliness' merely by reading it. I am quite capable of parsing out any negativity from such events for which I was not the catalyst. If others are not capable of doing so, perhaps they should avoid those areas, or grow thicker skin - we live in the real world, it ain't always pretty. Don your armor and shield, and learn to deflect - otherwise, one might wish to stay in a warm safe comfy cozy little nook, and never venture out into other areas. I'm not saying I necessarily approve flaming, but if they ask for it (by their actions), and there are NEVER any sort of consequences, why would they ever change their actions? The lack of consequences breeds and emboldens bullies. Are you condoning mollycoddling of them?

Richard

Sorry, the question was not directed at you.

I don't think there is any excuse for it. It doesn't help either person and only serves to condone uncivil behavior.

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Yug

Well, I guess we will just have to disagree.

Are you familiar with the following quote attributed to Edmund Burke?
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

This would mean to some, that allowing the bullying to occur, with no upbraiding of any sort, is actually condoning it. That is also the meaning I take from it.

Richard

We have the case of the not-so-evil doers. For example, if we encounter someone who engages in uncivil behavior for attention, and then most people don't respond, the pattern on this site has been that they either stop the behavior or go away.

In the case of people who are just plain mean -- through immaturity or otherwise: I agree that a rebuttal is due. But still there is no excuse for being uncivil about it.

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Yug

I'm of the opinion that no matter how civil one truly is in taking a bully and pulling them up short, they would undoubtedly argue that is was done in a most uncivil manner. Their ego would require it of them.

Richard

I don't think what you are talking about now matches the "total flameout" approach for the entertainment of others you were talking about earlier.

In either case I don't think being uncivil is justified or necessary. Yelling at a bully is meaningless because it is part of their nature not to listen. Tell them civilly but in no uncertain terms that you are not going to tolerate the behavior, and if they persist let them deal with ostracization and other civil consequences.

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Yug

I didn't say I would be civil, just that they would argue that one was not civil regardless of how it was done. Also, I could not 'yell' seeing it is done textually and not vocally. I would refrain from all caps since that would be rather obvious, and probably not read. I could tell them quite accurately what I thought of them even though they'd have to look up most of the words to understand what was being said, although their ego would not let them admit they had had to look up anything. I would consider that civil, especially since it would be easy to 'put them in their place' without having to use any commonly used curse words to do so. They, however, would claim uncivility on my part. I think where you and I differ is in the determination of what is civil and what is not. Different strokes, I guess.

G'nite.

The Hollyberry Lady

If you've ever spent any time in an online forum, you've undoubtedly encountered certain individuals who abuse their status within the forum. I'm not talking about forum trolls. They're easy to spot - and just as easy to dismiss. But rather, a different kind of malicious entity - the forum bully.


The Nature of Forums


Online forums are no different than any other group formed by people throughout human history. There are leaders, followers, outsiders. For convenience, you can look at a forum as kingdom. There's usually a king and a queen, a prince and princess, court jesters, members of the nobility, wise old advisors and outsiders. While an online forum is a trivial kingdom, remember that people defend their kingdoms, no matter how small. It could be an office, a playground, a seat at the table, or a forum.


Troll or Bully?


In many ways, I have more respect for a troll than a forum bully. At least a troll is direct. If you pick up a snake, and it bites you, whose fault is that? The snake was just doing what it does. It's the same with trolls. Their intentions are obvious - they're in the forum to disrupt and cause trouble. They arrive with all the subtlety of a jet on a landing strip.


Forum bullies are harder to spot. They disguise their intentions. But make no mistake. When you encounter one, you will know - because their bite is equally malicious and just as full of venom.


What is a Forum Bully?


A forum bully is a school ground throwback. Remember that middle school bully with his pathetic little band of sycophantic followers? That's a forum bully. In ways the forum bully is just a pseudonym for a troll, but with a major difference. While the troll's behavior is condemned by the group, the forum bully's actions are condoned by the group. Established members of the group, who don't agree with the forum bully, usually remain quiet while the bully tears apart people just for sport and as a demonstration of power within the forum.


Basically a forum bully is the equivalent of a popular troll -- a troll with power within the group. And therein lies the danger. Picture that popular guy in high school who takes pride in belittling others less popular. Then toss in a few of his friends, along for the ride, who derive their own sense of power by picking up his table scraps, and you have an accurate picture of a forum bully.


Evolution of a Forum Bully


Forum bullies are typically intelligent. They usually begin as helpful members of the forum. But as their power grows, their true nature reveals itself. Once established, forum bullies begin mixing their helpful posts with intimidation. As they evolve, and develop a reputation, they attract followers. The followers serve as back up, often times speaking on behalf of the bully to clarify the forum bully's statements. Other times the followers are like a pack of hyenas jumping in for the kill after the bully has drawn blood.

As the forum bully fully evolves, he begins to feel immune to attack. He states his opinion regardless of accuracy or consequence, knowing full well that he can always rely on the support of followers to bail him out of trouble.


Enablers


The danger of a forum bully is two-fold. In one respect, the forum bully makes the other respected members of the forum appear hypocritical to an outsider. When the forum bully spouts his own brand of nonsense, when the forum bully tears apart other forum members for no reason other than because he can, it makes other members of the forum look bad - simply because the very behavior a troll is ostracized for, is the exact same behavior permitted to the forum bully. The double standard so created reeks of hypocrisy and undermines the legitimacy of everyone who does not call the forum bully out for his repugnant behavior.


The forum bully is not stupid. The bully will never attack other respected members of the forum. He will also mix his attacks between those who genuinely deserve being attacked, and those he attacks for fun. After all, the only way a forum bully stays in business is with the consent of the other members of the forum. And he knows the fine line between being labeled a troll and being called blunt or to the point.


The other danger of a forum bully is that he creates an atmosphere of fear within the forum - not fear among the established members, but rather fear among those outsiders who want to participate in the forum. It is this fear that enables the forum bully to operate. A forum operates on the classic in-group/out-group dynamic. The bully's behavior is tolerated because of an understanding of this dynamic. You don't attack those within the inner circle, only those outside it.


If one of the respected members of the forum were to call the bully what he is, a petty, repugnant fraction of a human being, this member risks losing position within the forum. The resulting forum is a place in which comments are guarded. Politics are played. And the free flow of information is stifled. This is the true danger of allowing a forum bully to continue his activities. By not calling him out, the forum loses part of the dynamic it was created to foster. The forum bully also undermines the legitimacy of everyone else in the forum.


How to Spot a Forum Bully


The key is in the comments. Look at how most forum members reply to comments. Most are polite. They may disagree but they do so with a level of respect for the opinions of others, unless those opinions are genuinely ludicrous. The forum bully does not respect anyone but himself. He respects the power of others in the group, but nothing else. Everyone is beneath him. His comments are made without regard to the feelings of anyone but himself. And if he is wrong, he cannot admit it. To do so would undermine his power. While others in the group will add prefaces to their comments or phrase their comments in the form of suggestions, the forum bully will tell others what to do, like a master issuing orders to slaves. When called on this approach, the forum bully's followers will claim the bully is just being blunt. After all the bully is the source of all truth, and their own sense of power.


What to do When Attacked by a Forum Bully


Unfortunately if you are an outsider, there's not much you can do. To attack the bully often will cause the more established members of the forum to close ranks and dispel the outsider. There's a certain logic in this. As an outsider, you've yet to prove whether you're worth defending - especially against an established member of the forum.


If you're a semi-established member of the forum, you stand a better chance. But know that politically, most people will not back you up because to do so risks losing position within the forum - in short, it's bad politics.


If you are a prominent member, you have nothing to worry about. The forum bully derives his power from his standing within the group and will not jeopardize this position by attacking anyone with power.


If attacked by a forum bully, disagree politely then get out. Diffuse the situation with silence. Remember, others will read your posts and make determinations about you. Even the most skillful defense will dash up against the walls of the kingdom. Besides, you may have more people rooting for you than you think. Forum bullies are not necessarily liked by the more respected members of the forum, they are merely tolerated because they are part of the inner circle.


If all else fails, and the actions of the forum bully still bother you, you can always write an article about it.


: )

Richard

So Hollyberry Lady, Are you saying this behavior occurs on this site?

A few years ago Jarred posted this link -- I think most of us can identify with (and laugh about) at least one of these personalities --> FLAME WARRIORS HOME

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JDE222

What the heck does this have to do with bananas? I come here to read about bananas and am finding half of the posts have nothing at all to do with BANANAS...bananas.org...????

laserlight

This is a general discussion section for posting about non banana growing stuff. every forum i joined has one but they call this one Tiki Hut but its the same thing. even music and video game forums have a general discussion section. its all good. =)

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Вырвем оранжевому хорьку его гнилые зубы.

The Hollyberry Lady

"Internet bullies can easily destroy a forum if the staff refuses to step up and deal with these kind of problems.

Its not easy but I would say if you want a forum to survive and be friendly and happy you must be willing to deal with this.

I think the best suggestion I can give is keep an out for cliquish behavior and don't support or tolerate unwelcoming or unkind behavior.

Sadly I've seen admins ignore, let it slide or simply not see it. This in my opinion can kills a forum like no other.

Its not like a troll its more subtle and if a forum has this problem you can be sucked into before you know and then its too late.

My suggestion again is too look for cliqueish or elitist behavior and be on the look out for trouble.

I think the biggest issue that can motivate this problem to grow is a staff who won't confront a bully when they are misbehaving because the're an older member, have given a lot time or done a great deal for the site.

It comes back the fact the staff must deal with these problems quickly and early if possible"





"We’ve all run into them online. Those self-appointed protectors of truth and detail who inhabit online forums. They are belligerent, usually in-your-face, combative, sarcastic, cynical, project an air of superiority, usually don’t take a lot of photos. If they have an extensive vocabulary they use it to cow those they are addressing.. verbal bullying is their main joy in life. They LIVE for it. They are Forum Bullies.

Most Forum Bullies are compensating for something lacking in their life, something they are missing, such as: respect, friends, social graces, sex, Etc… Maybe they’re pissed off because they are short, maybe they’re ticked because they’ve gone bald.. or maybe they’re just nasty people who did not get enough love as a child. Let’s call a spade a spade: They’re a**holes.

These pitiful people feel compelled to address every single thread in a forum that they disagree with.. they just can’t let it go. They are like a moth to a flame. They MUST respond because “the other guy” is an idiot and does not know what he is talking about and SOMEONE (meaning them) must right the injustice done and squash the "false" information being disseminated by THAT idiot.

I disagree with things I read in online forums all the time but I don’t make it my business to respond to every single one of them. Really, people are entitled to their opinions, even if those opinions are based on faulty information. Just agree to disagree and move on. Hell, there are much more important things to argue about e.g. global warming, pollution, whaling, drug addiction, crooked cops… you get the idea.

Forum Bullies must have no life and no friends. If they have a wife and they treat their wife the way they treat people online I suggest they sleep with one eye open. If they tell you they have lots of friends, they’re lying and their so-called friends probably suffer them because they have no other options. If these bullies act in person the way they act online I am sure that someone would have put them in the hospital by now with a lesson well learned…. be civil or keep your damn mouth shut! The Internet allows many of these Forum Bullies to say things to others online that they would never say to them in person for fear of getting their asses kicked.

I’ve always hated bullies. I suffered at the hands of several when I was growing up. I remember one guy in particular during my high school days. Over the summer I grew quite a bit. I put on weight, muscle and height. When school began again I dreaded running into that guy but to my amazement he no longer seemed interested in me. It wasn’t until later that I realized this clown was no longer bothering me because he knew I could kick his ass.

Bullies only pick on those they believe they can dominate.

Here’s What You Can Do To Fight Online Bullies

When it comes to online forums and Forum Bullies, complain to the owners of the forum. Every single time you see one of these self-appointed defenders of truth step out of line. Complain. Do not get involved with name calling or sink to the level of the Forum Bully. That is what he wants. Do the right thing. When you see a Forum Bully attacking someone.. complain… every single time, never stop. Complain every single time. Not all forums have moderators so it may take some time but eventually these jerks will be evicted...but only if YOU play by the rules and do not get sucked into the same bad behavior as the Forum Bully exhibits.

Trust me, it works. Been there, done that, several times."


: )

Richard

Bold, size 4, black lettering ?? We are all wondering what person or site has motivated your thread ??

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Yug

Hey, I'm feeling bullied here... (just kidding )

I have to admit though that the bolded text is just about like using all caps, it is quite annoying.

The Hollyberry Lady

I was just trying to see it easier Yug, while I was previewing the post on my iPad.






"Other problematic people are Trolls. A Troll is someone who joins cyber groups with the intent of causing trouble - it's how they get their jollies. While not always bullies themselves, they aggravate people and bring out the worst in them - including bullying tendencies. Typically a Troll at first lurks quietly, learning the trigger points of the group and then they'll say something deliberately calculated to get everyone arguing with everyone else, or the Troll themselves.


This happened a few years ago, where one person on a site questioned everything that was common knowledge, and this just sent people right over the edge -- e-mails were flying back and forth, but he professed to be unconvinced by anything anyone said. For example I remember posting something about the daylight hours getting shorter, but the Troll said that the hours of sunlight were always equal, everywhere in the world. People tried to explain the tilt of the Earth on its axis, and pointed out the phenomenon of the midnight sun and the long winters at the poles, but he pooh-poohed everything and said they were making it all up. Some list members went berserk and continued to try to convince him, but this only encouraged him to torment them further - he was always making similar pronouncements. In fact, the best way to deal with a Troll is to not respond to them at all - they will get bored and go away.

As we all know there are many sites that are unmoderated because people want to be free to express their opinions without censure. This is great in theory, but what if one person regularly attacks people? Simple - you end up with a group of bullies because everyone else is afraid to open their mouths, and/or leaves the group. Communication is killed, and only the ignorant remain. I'm not suggesting that all groups be moderated, but if someone is a known troublemaker I see no reason to let them take over - moderate that sucker until they prove they can be trusted! If you find that they can't be trusted, give them the boot.

Worst of all is the cyber-stalker. This is someone who follows their targets around the Internet, sending offensive e-mails to their in-box, groups and e-lists. Sometimes it can escalate into physical or sexual assault.



A Word on Cyber Bullies:


Cyber bullies are in some ways a whole different animal, because you might never meet them in person. However, they can and do cause all kinds of grief and aggravation for a lot of people.

To be fair, some people honestly don't mean to come across as harsh but they lack writing skills and the fact that we can't hear their tone of voice doesn't help. People react to what they've said, and then it can escalate from there with no malicious intent at all. Generally speaking, it's not a good idea to say something via the Internet that you wouldn't say to someone's face, but many people don't take the time to consider the impact of their words before firing them off.

One of the most common types of bullies in chat rooms and on e-mail lists is the Self-Righteous, Know-It-All, Holier-Than-Thou Windbag. These people, while not necessarily meaning to, kill all conversation because they challenge people in such a way that they feel about an inch high. The worst part of being the target of one of their "corrections" is that there is no possible come-back, so people stop posting to avoid being embarrassed by them if they make a mistake. I'm not saying that we should not correct newbies and people who are distributing wrong information, but naivety or ignorance of a topic is not a reason to attack and humiliate people. There are better ways of sharing information and knowledge than making someone else look and feel like an idiot, and it's time we made the effort to learn them.


Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg. promotion) for the bully.



A bully is a person who:


~ refuses to acknowledge or accept responsibility for their behaviour and its consequences.


~ is primarily concerned with their own pleasure, wants power over others, and is willing to use and abuse other people to get what they want.


~ is consistent with whatever type of abuse they specialize in - it occurs every time you see them, and not just when they are in a bad mood.


~ is unwilling to recognize that there could be better ways of behaving.


Bullying is obsessive and compulsive; they have to have someone to bully and appear to be unable to survive without a current target.



Narcissism and Bullying


Narcissism is a Personality disorder said to be characterized by extreme self-love. However, in the legend of Narcissus, he was not in love with himself; he was in love with his reflection.


This is what people diagnosed with Narcissism are also in love with -- the self that they think they (and other people) see. Because they are unable to experience love (and most other emotions) first hand narcissists are pre-occupied with the need to project what they think is a lovable image. Unfortunately they almost always screw it up because they do not truly understand what is lovable and what is not. They tend to confuse the love of others with such things as awe, respect, fear, admiration and adulation.


In other words, someone who is a diagnosable narcissist has to be the centre of attention, always right, is arrogant, manipulative, considers others as existing only to serve them, etc. They tend to attack when their ego is threatened, and if they are narcissistic to large degree, they feel threatened a great deal of the time.


Everyone is narcissistic to a point, and some narcissism is okay and perfectly natural. However, study after study has linked narcissism with bullying. The fact is that most adult Bullies are quite narcissistic - especially those whose preferred method of operation is verbal or relationship bullying. It is also an uncomfortable fact that most psychopaths are narcissists (but not all narcissists are psychopaths).


So yes, you probably have encountered someone in your lifetime with Narcissistic qualities. You might even have some of them yourself, but this doesn't make anyone a fully fledged Narcissist.


However, a Narcissistic Bully can wreak havoc and tear organizations apart. Fortunately people like this are actually fairly easy to recognize if you know what qualities to look for -- but remember that they have to have several of the qualities to fit the profile".



I'll list some characteristics of the narcissist bully, soon...


: )

Yug

Well, I have to agree it really IS easier to see that way.

The Hollyberry Lady

Narcissist Bullies
Does the following sound like anyone you know?


Grandiosity


~ has an inflated sense of self-importance (may exaggerate accomplishments or expect to be recognized as superior without appropriate achievements). He or she believes everything is owed to them as a right.


~ paranoia often accompanies the grandiosity, reinforcing the need for protection against a perceived hostile person or organization (their target).


~ has an absolute belief in their leadership ability but cannot tell the difference between real leadership (maturity, decisiveness, assertiveness, trust and integrity) and bullying (immaturity, impulsiveness, aggression, distrust and deceit).


~ often has a great need and desire to be seen as a wonderful, kind, caring and compassionate person, in direct contrast to their behaviour and treatment of others. They can be totally oblivious to the discrepancy between how they want to be seen (and believe they are seen), and what other people actually think of their behavior.


~ seldom recognize the individuality or rights of others, which makes all self-serving behaviours, lies and manipulations acceptable.


Egocentric


~ everything is always about them. If for example you are in a group of people talking about the death of your grandmother, the conversation will somehow be turned around to become focused on them and their problems. If it’s a one-on-one conversation, you’ll get something like "Oh, that’s too bad. Let me tell you about. . ."

~ narcissists and bullies like to have followers, so they deliberately cultivate people in the community who will be manipulated to admire them, adore them, inflate their already monumental egos, and overlook their pretence, half-truths and lies.

~ in a crowd these people regularly dominate conversations and often act like extremely pompous thespians or opera divas.



Shallow emotions and lack of empathy


~ they lack a mature conscience and seem only to be restrained by fear of being punished or damage to their reputations. Emotionally and morally they behave like a very bright six year old child.

~ while these people may have outbursts of emotion, it’s often a performance in front of an audience to obtain a certain result – what they display is superficial at best, pretended at worst. Positive feelings of warmth, joy, love, and compassion are usually more feigned than experienced.

~ may be unmoved by things that would upset a normal person while outraged by insignificant matters.

~ although intelligent in some respects, perceptive, and quite good at sizing people up, they make no genuine connections with others, seldom having real friends -- they have victims and accomplices, and the accomplices frequently end up as victims.

~ unwilling to listen, and unable to sustain mature adult conversations unless they are the topic under discussion (but only in a positive way).

~ may not notice if someone is in distress unless it affects them directly. On the other hand, if they have caused the distress they may appear to be thoroughly enjoying it.

~ most often they are unwilling to apologize for their transgressions, but will if there are important witnesses present - then it's over-the-top, very artificial and inappropriate - done merely to convince others of how "nice" they are.

~ often have trouble remembering names, and might consistently get familiar people's names wrong. For example, they might always call someone named "Pauline" "Paulina" even after multiple corrections. This is may not be done to annoy so much as that they are not terribly concerned about getting it right - "Pauline" just isn't that important to them.

~ are superficially co-operative but motivated by revenge and the need to stay on top.


More soon...


: )

The Hollyberry Lady

More characteristics of a Narcissist Bully...


Controlling behaviour...


~ tries to control the flow of conversation (usually to keep it about themselves), and can be quite reactionary if someone starts talking knowledgably about psychology or personality disorders in their presence.

~ displays an intense need to criticize while at the same time refusing to acknowledge, value and praise others. If a narcissist makes a mistake, it's one that anyone can make; if someone they don't like does the same thing, it's because they're an idiot.

~ often disguise their criticism as loving concern.

~ are drawn to positions of power, and can be very autocratic, high-handed, officious, petty and mean-spirited

~ tend to micro-manage their targets, nit-picking about every little detail and publicly criticising their behaviour. However, the mistakes, omissions and derelictions of duty of those in their favour are overlooked, no matter how incompetent they are.

~ because they are extremely focussed on how they want others to perceive them, they are hyper-vigilant when it comes to insults and quick to anger. For a narcissist, rage follows anything that threatens to tear off their mask of normalcy.

~ Narcissists are famous for insisting on having the last word - even if that word makes no logical sense given the conflict involved.



Extremely Competitive...


~ poor sports and very poor losers, it is best not to engage a Narcissist in board games or other competitions. They expect to win, even if that means everyone else has to play a losing game. If you refuse to throw a game they will usually resort to "bending the rules" or cheating - but no one is supposed to notice this either - if you expose their cheating things can get really ugly.

~ sometimes narcissists will make a competition where none really exists. For example, someone they dislike may be very knowledgeable on some subject or other. The narcissist naturally will resent the fact that their target gets consulted by others, and so they read a book or two and soon proclaim themselves a better expert - often claiming some hereditary title or other to make themselves (in their own mind at least) superior to the real expert. Their drones are expected to swallow this drivel, and if anyone questions their qualifications trouble will ensue.

~ refuses to accept differences of opinion. The person who disagrees with them MUST be convinced of the truth of the narcissist's point of view. For example, let's say that you both saw the same movie, and they liked it but you didn't. It's common for a narcissist to insist that you sit through the movie again, with them, while they try to convince you how great it is. If you profess to remain unimpressed they may well bring it up every time they see you, still trying to persuade you that you are wrong about this movie. Most people would pretend to be convinced at this point - to get them to shut up about it if nothing else - but if you stubbornly refuse to see reason they usually will become very cold towards you, or else pick a fight over some trivial thing and refuse to speak to you any more. Anyone who refuses to fall in line with their way of thinking will sooner or later be excluded from the narcissist's exalted presence.

~ the following quote sums up a narcissist's attitude toward competition perfectly: "It is not enough that I must win. All others must fail."

~ because narcissists see everything as black and white, people who are friends with them are not allowed to be friends with (or sometimes even speak to) someone that the narcissist doesn't like. You will probably not be able to maintain a relationship with both parties because the Narcissist will make you choose between them and the person they are targeting - and if you choose their target, the Narcissist becomes your enemy too.

~ bullies and narcissists have to be first in the hearts of their friends, and although they themselves are allowed to have many "best" friends, their followers are not to have close relationships with others.



Persuasive & Manipulative...


~ bullies are often very good at beguiling, confusing, and convincing others of the veracity of their lies. They can be great at distorting peoples' perceptions with the intention of creating a negative view of their target in the minds of people in the community. This is achieved through undermining, the creation of doubts and suspicions, etc.

~ completely ruthless if someone isn’t co-operating with their agenda, and will not hesitate to try make the other person feel bad. They usually begin with emotional manipulation but if that doesn’t have the desired effect, they will quickly move to other forms of coercion.

~ most narcissists have an amazing ability to twist the words of others around. They use this talent to avoid blame and make other people out to be the bad guy. If you have never experienced this first-hand, it is nearly impossible to describe just how they manage to disorder people's thinking with such patently illogical arguments - or understand how their accomplices fall for it, but fall for it they do.


More soon...


: )

The Hollyberry Lady

Vociferous denial of any wrongdoing...


- when trapped a narcissist will try to twist the conversation to absolve themselves from responsibility. If this doesn't work, their next tactic is to keep talking, changing the subject. If this doesn't work either, they display anger in attempt to frighten off their accusers.

- if caught red-handed and professing to be hurt by the experience in some way, it will boil down to that he or she is mad because someone is angry with them - not because they believe themselves to have been in the wrong.

- when confronted, immediately and aggressively denies everything, then counter-attacks with distorted or fabricated criticisms and allegations.

- trivializes their role in the conflict "I can't believe you're all upset about that!" or talks about making a fresh start, "Well, that's all in the past. I don't know why you're so obsessed with it," even if the past incident was only five minutes ago. Or they try to explain themselves by further downplaying their behavior, claiming it harmless and not intended to offend. Only fools fall for this act though.

- may feign victimhood (especially popular with female narcissists but not exclusively). This 1) keeps the attention on them, and not on what you are accusing them of; 2) stops you from continuing with your accusations, at least temporarily; and 3) it makes you look like the bully if there are uninformed witnesses to the charade. How can you accuse such a sensitive soul of doing something like that? Covert aggression (which narcissists excel at) is not just about not getting caught - half of the skill to it is looking like you would never do it in the first place.

- the denial/counter-attack/feigning victimhood strategy can provoke their target into an angry and emotional outburst after which the narcissist gets to say "See? I told you she was like that!"

- even kindly meant, constructive criticism can provoke rage in these people, because it means you've noticed they are not perfect. However, conciliatory gestures will only result in more demands from them, but not a return to how things were before you dared to find fault.



More soon...


: )

The Hollyberry Lady

Strange ideas about truth and honesty...


- make convincing liars and when busted, will make up something plausible to fit their needs at that moment. A narcissist can look you straight in the eye and lie to you easily, even when it is obvious they are being untruthful.

- sometimes they lie for no apparent reason, even when it would be much easier to tell the truth.

- some of these people actually appear to believe their own lies, especially if they apply to their abilities or powers - extreme examples of this are cult leaders.

- contradict themselves constantly, sometimes in the same breath. They will even contradict facts, and if you have the nerve to disagree with them, or try to straighten out their story, they'll accuse you of being confused, lying, or crazy.

- often refuse to be specific or give a straight answer.

- cannot keep a secret, and will often embroider it when they pass the information on as gossip.


: )