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Other Plants Discussion of all other types of plants besides bananas.


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Old 12-07-2009, 07:06 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Palms for zone 6

He is the first one I've ever seen to describe it and test the cold hardiness of the "Frost Shift Heave" or "FSH" trait (or was it FHS?) Anyway, it does seem to have a correlation. He's also done testing that involves measuring the carbohydrate to water ratio of palms. There apparently is also a correlation there as well. The argument being that the higher the concentration of sugar the less likely the plant's tissues are to get freeze damage. When the liquid in plant tissues freezes, the expansion causes the cell walls to break. When the plant warms, the liquid melts out of these cracks and makes the damage evident. That is part of why palms do better in the winter on the dry side (more sugar, less water). Also with Musa that is why they seem to "melt" after cold damage.
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Old 12-07-2009, 07:16 PM   #62 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Palms for zone 6

Thanks for the information, Rob. I still do have my doubts about the FSH/FHS. As you know I have several Trachys around the yard at different stages of growth. I have one with a very pronounced FSH that has been planted in the ground for 3 years now from a 5 gallon container. It is the first Trachy in my yard that shows damage and has had spear pull every winter so far. It does regrow almost all of its fronds, but still shows damage before any of my others. Is interesting info nonetheless!!!
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:42 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Palms for zone 6

My 'Taylor form' has the greatest SFH trait and had MASSIVE spear pull last spring (spear and 5 fronds)! Still, it has re-grown and looks awesome right now. I've heard that they get spear pull easy but grow it out fast. Meanwhile, my 'Bulgaria' rarely get spear pull, but grow so slow that they have difficulty recovering if they do get spear pull. I've lost a few of those. I haven't noticed the SFH trait on any of them.
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:25 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Palms for zone 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG7aChattTN View Post
\I should have referred him to John in Colorado who grows Trachies in zone 5...with protection but much less than I'd expect. He has the advantage of dry cold, but does not have the advantage of hot wet summers. He has a lot of info that could probably be found with a google search. His place is called 2Lazy2P Ranch...there can't be too many hits with that in the search engine.
'

His website is no longer online but you can find it in the web archives here:

http://web.archive.org/web/200412100...FluidData.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG7aChattTN View Post
He is the first one I've ever seen to describe it and test the cold hardiness of the "Frost Shift Heave" or "FSH" trait (or was it FHS?) Anyway, it does seem to have a correlation. He's also done testing that involves measuring the carbohydrate to water ratio of palms. There apparently is also a correlation there as well. The argument being that the higher the concentration of sugar the less likely the plant's tissues are to get freeze damage. When the liquid in plant tissues freezes, the expansion causes the cell walls to break. When the plant warms, the liquid melts out of these cracks and makes the damage evident. That is part of why palms do better in the winter on the dry side (more sugar, less water). Also with Musa that is why they seem to "melt" after cold damage.
It's SFH (Slope Frost Heave):

SFH Factor in Trachycarpus pictures from flowers photos on webshots

When you add carbohydrates to water, it lowers the freezing point of the water. The higher the concentration, the lower the freezing point becomes. There are also many other advantages to having a higher amount of carbohydrates since they serve as a reserve of energy for the palm during stressful conditions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy4ut View Post
Thanks for the information, Rob. I still do have my doubts about the FSH/FHS. As you know I have several Trachys around the yard at different stages of growth. I have one with a very pronounced FSH that has been planted in the ground for 3 years now from a 5 gallon container. It is the first Trachy in my yard that shows damage and has had spear pull every winter so far. It does regrow almost all of its fronds, but still shows damage before any of my others. Is interesting info nonetheless!!!
The SFH trait does not make the actual plant tissue more resistant to cold. The trait protects the growing point since it is against the ground and well insulated. If you look at Rhapidophyllum hystrix, you'll notice that the pups are less likely to die from cold than the main growing point. This is due to the fact that they grow sideways. (also the same with Chamaerops humilis)
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:56 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: Palms for zone 6

Well I'm going to test hardiness of Sabal Minor 'Cape Hatteras' thanks to Randy in passing some seeds out to friends here on the org! Hopefully get several to sprout, will grow them in pots to get some size before planting in the ground.

Thanks Randy
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