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European Section This forum is for members of the Banana Society from anywhere in all of the European Union to discuss things about banana plants, to discuss issues of getting banana plants in and into Europe, to discuss the things that bother the region, etc.. The forum exists to allow every new European member to get in touch with his/her European colleagues, exchange plants, give advice, and more efficiently organize the European banana community.


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Old 12-15-2011, 02:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Big decision, need Your opinion

I ll start this topic here although isnt banana related or maybe it is considering my country is in a way a Banana republic, looking geographicly that is
Well, things goes like this, sometime in Januray we will have an important referendum here about joining European Union and Im still not clear with myself what to vote for.
If U can vote in your countries now at this moment what would U choose?
What can be the benefits and what with The Dark Side?
All invited!
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big desigion, need Your opinion

I don't know about your situation, but I do know that Greece got screwed over by switching to EU currency because nobody paid taxes there.
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big desigion, need Your opinion

Ante, serious political discussions are hard to come by. In many places the dialog might as well be about a sports team instead of things that actually effect peoples lives.

For a rational look at the EU -- where its been, where it might be going, and what's good/bad for Croatia, have a look at past and upcoming issues of The Economist.

My own opinion is that globalization of economies will continue, and so smaller nations will need to join one kind of consortium or another sometime in the future. For Croatia, the decision at the moment is whether it will benefit from stronger economic ties and regulations from Germany and France.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliboy1994 View Post
I don't know about your situation, but I do know that Greece got screwed over by switching to EU currency because nobody paid taxes there.
Wow, that's some unexpected insight from the junior banana grower!

Yes, Greece was sold on the idea that joining the EU would fix "the dark side" in that county -- except that the voters didn't understand that the change would have to come from within.
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Old 12-15-2011, 04:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big desigion, need Your opinion

With a bit of luck they'll let the U.K out and give our place to you, the E.U. is a crippling club that is at the moment very sick with the Euro just making things worse.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big desigion, need Your opinion

Hi Ante

You're welcome to our place. You cannot hold a whole range of economies together when the going gets tough. The Southern European states will eventually be picked off by the speculators or cast adrift by the Germans who's indecisiveness and paranoia has sent the whole ship down. The French will come to rue their pact with them when their backward economy is further exposed when Italy founders.
When the U.K. last had a referendum on the subject back in the 1970's we joined the European 'common market' not some pseudo-federalist state with unelected technocrats at the helm. Best thing we did was staying out of the Euro and retaining control of our own economic destiny well as far as that is possible in today's globally linked economy.

Rant over... More importantly, will my beloved QPR beat Man Utd at the weekend?
regards
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big desigion, need Your opinion

great current affairs topic..i follow financial times,reuters,
and the economists is great too..
most of my overseas friends are in ireland,scotland and england..
what wasnt taken care of..if even possible with all countries considering..
is the euro.. and no central bank to do what needs to be done when trouble
shows up..
nial fergeson.scot..has alot to say on this.. pretty sure hes more liberal than
conservative..but when it comes to the euro (currency) he feels it will fail..
we here in america have our capitalism is answer to everything..and it aint..
? dalmaian..is there a "general feeling" on joining or not???
what has helped the brits is they didnt give up the pound..they
can control their economy without being tied to the euro..
i sure wish you and fellow croats
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Hi Ante,

If I was in your place I would vote for accession to the EU. Greece was not screwed by the EU. It is the other
way around. All the countries, which are now in trouble have profited greatly by their membership. So
much so, that they thought there was no end to the prosperity afforded to them. They did not declare the true
state of their finances and were
trusted too much by the others. That got the whole Euro-zone into trouble, but it will not happen again,
because, when the dust has cleared, there will be close and effective oversight of each country’s budget.

It will take time, before the crisis is sorted out, but sorted out it will get. I believe that that will happen by
early to mid 2013. The UK has always been a hesitant member of the EU; - did not accept the Euro and did
not participate in the Schengen Agreement, to which even Switzerland, a non-member of the EU belongs.
I believe, that the chances of Britain leaving the EU are 60/40 and when that happens, the continent will
progress much faster toward unity and you will not want Croatia to be left out.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 51st state View Post
Hi Ante
The Southern European states will eventually be picked off by the speculators or cast adrift by the Germans who's indecisiveness and paranoia has sent the whole ship down.
First of all, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland and Austria as well as other “have” countries will not set
anyone adrift. They have enough money to support any country, which decides to pull themselves up
by the bootstraps and bring their house in order. But they do not have enough money to support them
while they go on their merry ways as usual. In Greece the public service is over-bloated due to a buddy
system, which has half of the public employees sitting idle, rolling their thumbs. In Spain, anybody
over 40 years of age cannot be terminated etc. That kind of nonsense has to stop and it would be absurd
to expect the taxpayers of the “haves” to support it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 51st state View Post
Hi Ante
The French will come to rue their pact with them when their backward economy is further exposed when Italy founders.

Kev

You may or may not be aware, that the Italian population is one of the wealthiest on the planet, even
though their country is deeply in debt and somewhat in disarray. Italians, including newborns have an
average net-worth of more than €60,000.- in stocks, debentures and insurance assets etc. not counting
real estate
.

With Silvio Berlusconi gone, Mario Monti, the new Prime Minister, appears to be determined to straighten
out the mess there and his track record indicates, that he is capable of doing just that.


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Last edited by Jack Daw : 12-16-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap View Post
I ll start this topic here although isnt banana related or maybe it is considering my country is in a way a Banana republic, looking geographicly that is
Well, things goes like this, sometime in Januray we will have an important referendum here about joining European Union and Im still not clear with myself what to vote for.
If U can vote in your countries now at this moment what would U choose?
What can be the benefits and what with The Dark Side?
All invited!
Thanks
It's sad how you think that in ANY Slavic country people actually have the vote. Yes, you put the voting paper into the box... but that's it. (see the latest case in Russia, Ukraine...).

As an EU member, let me tell you, what happened after joining the EU.
1) Every company partaking in the food production was ordered to seize their activity for some laugable EU funds. Needless to say... that it was binding for everybody. What will we eat? People asked. France and Spain will produce enough, don't worry. And they did. The only catch is, that my country was selfsufficient 20 years ago (in food production, heavy industry...) now we are only consumers with little or no choice.
Thousands, if not tens of thousands of jobs lost. And the bonus: food price has increased many folds... to a western standard. Of course... the salaries remained eastern.

2) We were pressured to enter the currency union... for which no referendum was given. And so we have Euro now. Judge on your own. 25% national budget is sent to Brussels and Athens. They will never come back. Needless to say that both capital cities are ruling countries much richer, than our own.

3) Free-movement. More than 55% of our young population has left the country. There's literally nobody to work on the pensioners. And nobody to run the economy.

The situation is in fact (partially due to the EU) so severe, that a form of social war has already begun. Needless to say, that those people bread by the communists will after the next elections hold majority in the parliament. One party.

Nobody asked me, but if I could vote to enter the EU, I would vote rather against.
Your local businesses and markets will be taken over by western and chinese companies and through some Brussels law you will have no choice, but to accept it. Corruption has (with the inflow of Brussels money) increased by 2500%.



As long as you have your own currency, your own freedoms... why lose it to somebody in a completely different country/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Yes, Greece was sold on the idea that joining the EU would fix "the dark side" in that county -- except that the voters didn't understand that the change would have to come from within.
I disagree. And now we can see that the more moeny is poured into greece, the more definite it is, that the Greece will never pay it back.
Their debts will be paid off though. As long as I'm concerned, they once again showed us who's the oldest and most evolved culture in the Europe. No other country will get the sort of money they got. And every other country will have to pay for them.
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Last edited by Jack Daw : 12-16-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:38 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Daw View Post
It's sad how you think that in ANY Slavic country people actually have the vote. Yes, you put the voting paper into the box... but that's it. (see the latest case in Russia, Ukraine...).

1) Every company partaking in the food production was ordered to seize their activity for some laugable EU funds. Needless to say... that it was binding for everybody. What will we eat? People asked.
"Your country", Slovakia, was approved for accession into the EU in 2002, held a referendum on May 17, 2003,
and formally joined the EU on May first 2004. I do not know, how the below tables will display in this thread,
but the figures speak for themselves. I believe, that most of us in other countries would be jealous of the
relative economic performance of Slovakia since joining the EU.


From Banking to Mining to Labor. Here's a look
at various modern economic structures that are in place in the Slovak Republic.

Macroeconomic Performance & Forecast for 2007
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
GDP growth (%) 3.4 4.8 4.8 5.2 6.6 8.5 8.7(f)
GDP (US$ bn) 62.8 68.6 73.1 78.9 86.1
Inflation (%) 7.2 3.5 8.4 7.5 2.8 4.3
Unemployment (%) 19.3 18.7 17.6 18.2 16.3 13.4
Fiscal balance (% of GDP) -6.5 -7.7 -2.7 -2.4 -2.8 -3.7
Foreign debt (% of GDP) 49.2 43.3 42.4 41.4 34.2 30.4

In 2007, Slovakia reached the highest economic growth among the members of OECD and the EU. The annual GDP growth was 10.4%
at constant prices, with the record level of 14.3% reached in the fourth quarter.[12] In 2010, Slovakia grew by 4.0% which was
the highest growth among new EU member states

Central bank National Bank of Slovakia
Slovakia is part of the Eurosystem and the European Central Bank
International Reserves US$ 2.207 billion (Source: IMF; Data updated: November 2010) Gross Domestic Product - GDP US$ 95.177 billion
(2010 estimate) GDP (Purchasing Power Parity) 126.098 billion of International dollars (2010 estimate) Real GDP growth

2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007
1.4% 3.5% 4.6% 4.8% 5% 6.7% 8.5% 10.6%
2008 2009 2010 2011*
6.2% -4.8% 4% 3.8%

I rest my case
PS: While not all sectors of the Slovak economy may have prospered equally from the accession to the EU, there
is no doubt, that the EU was good for the country as a whole.



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Old 12-16-2011, 04:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

If Slovakia is such a paradise why do most of the population along with the romanians, Bulgarians, Poles etc all want to come to the U.K. ? and you wonder why we retain passport controls :-)
It's a bit like the U.S. and Canada opening up to Mexico and the rest of the defunct economies of Central and South America, although I'm sure the stats show them to be economic miracles...

I'm sure Croatia has some wonderful things to contribute to the EU but I can't quite think of any at the moment. When they adopt EU regulation and the Euro, the only thing going for them (cheap holidays outside the Eurozone) will be screwed.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Vote for Union Ante!
I can tell you from the perspective of young EU member and it is my individual point of view
Before our accession there were many apprehensions but finally they didn't come true.
Some “euro-sceptics” threatened with loss of independence or buying Polish ground out by rich West European citizens...
In my opinion membership finally has brought many benefits.
The market is open and you have wide access to any products you wish...
You can traveling without pass and without border check in.
There is many funds that offer you some financial support for many kinds of activities.
Very significant if also the fact some European low regulations were actually better then ours which brought better control over the state institutions.
Especially ecological organization use this possibility to block some “doubtful” investments.

And of course most of your unemployed lower class could move to UK
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 51st state View Post
If Slovakia is such a paradise why do most of the population along with the romanians, Bulgarians, Poles etc all want to come to the U.K. ? and you wonder why we retain passport controls :-)
Nobody has ever claimed that Slovakia was “a paradise” and of course, the UK is more prosperous than
most former Warsaw Pact nations, as are all western European countries. The fact is, that their GDP has
grown rather rapidly since entry into the EU (from USD 78.9bn in 2004 to 95.2bn that is 20.6% in 2010)


Quote:
Originally Posted by 51st state View Post
I'm sure Croatia has some wonderful things to contribute to the EU but I can't quite think of any at the moment. When they adopt EU regulation and the Euro, the only thing going for them (cheap holidays outside the Eurozone) will be screwed.

First of all, the accession to the EU does not automatically include entry into the Euro-zone. Accepting
he Euro as currency does also not mean equalization of prices. But if Croatia should join both, I am
rather positive, that the “continentals” will not flock to the British beaches instead.

If I understand Jack correctly his major beef with the EU membership of Slovakia was with the demise of
agriculture. It is a well known fact, that the Soviet dominated political system has stifled innovation
within as well as curtailed the capacity to acquire outside technology. Accordingly agriculture in the
Warsaw Pact was stuck in pre-WWII technology with horse drawn ploughs, hand cut grain harvest, which
was pitch forked on horse drawn hay wagons etc. These methods were a better part of a century behind
the west and could not be advanced in a few short years. Lower wages were not enough to be
competitive.

Slovakia still has the land and rising prosperity will enable their agriculture to catch up.


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Old 12-16-2011, 07:51 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

A few things i can tell you about joining the EU alone:

-Better laws and more freedoms
-Tempting offers to give up certain professions which is bad for business but generally better for the environment of your region
-Stricter control for pollution and product quality
-Easier to buy and receive a wide variety of products sold in EU or to EU,following EU laws

In case you enter the Euro,the following happen:

-USA becomes a cheaper vacation destination thanks to the exchange rate
-anything from US is cheap compared to EU products
-your country is no longer able to print its own money and so cannot take care of its debt problems by printing more of it and loosing just in exchange rate with other currencies. Thats what brought Greece down(well,its the politician's Greed mostly but that existed before as well....)and is unable to do anything for that.
-EU products cheaper for you than before
-significant rise in local product prices without equal rise of salaries.
-active EU interférence in your country's decision making,not always in a good for your country way.
-better status for your country


I cant say if its good or bad cause its both good and bad. I very much enjoy buying things from the US and only paying 2/3rd of what i would pay buying from the EU. Greece on the other hand,would benefit right now from being outside the Euro as it would hit bottom immediately and start recuperating while people still have some money on the side they can use,or even recuperate just by printing money while now there is no light visible in the tunnel for us unfortunately. I dont know what the international media are saying but the money EU ''gives'' us are the money we owe to it,so that we can complete our scheduled payment and thus we just continue to owe them the same or more money each time.........


Have fun choosing your side!
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:59 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Thank you Serweryn, excellent post.

Only one correction though. You can travel freely throughout most of continental Europe, even to
non-member Switzerland, but not to Britain. Their insular attitude prevented them from joining the Schengen
Agreement, which is the agreement which opened Europe up to borderless travel.

It would be painful in many respects, if the UK left the EU, but it would allow Europe to move closer to political
unity and thereby hopefully remove some of the levels of the present administrative complex. And political
unity and the elimination of conflicts was always and still is the ultimate aim of the protagonists of Europe.


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Old 12-16-2011, 08:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Hmmm, well i don't know if it's really hard to get there... actually i have never been in Britain but didn't hear anybody had some problems with passing the border...
As a curious detail I can tell you that we are under strong influence of British culture now. Almost every day I hear from medias what David Cameron did, what said the Queen, that prince Charles likes collecting mushrooms etc.
We have dozens of British programmes in TV ,even whole channels are translated. In the Sunday mornings I learn how to make Yorkshire Pudding instead of Czernina

!For goodness sake! it is almost 3am I must go sleep
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Of course, Serweryn, it is not difficult to get into the UK, after all they are still members of the EU. The
difference is, that you still have to pass border control and present an ID if you enter Britain from other EU
countries. That does not happen between the Schengen countries, not even for us, from the outside of the EU
once we are in one of the countries, we can travel freely to all of them, - - no border controls, except if we,
even members of the Commonwealth or anybody else, want to travel to the UK. Then we have to pass their
border controls.


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Old 12-16-2011, 09:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
PS: While not all sectors of the Slovak economy may have prospered equally from the accession to the EU, there
is no doubt, that the EU was good for the country as a whole.

Those numbers don't actually show anything.
Social situation hasn't been this bad in at least 2 decades, unemployment rates are (unofficial, our unofficial figures are actually the true one. ) well around 21% - that's an unemployment rate that makes a society unsustainable.

If you believe, that the numbers actually reflect the country... search on youtube for a documentary about Argentina called "Memoria del Saqueo". And how a paper number "Argentinean miracle" led to the worst social genocide in Argentinean history and resulted in mass protests and a few day long street war between protesters and the armed forces. Many people died there. Yet the country figures were miraculous. Up until 2001.

If I say that the situation is worse than dire, I mean it. I don't judge by the numbers or figures, I judge by the quality of life that I could, can and will see among the various classes of people here... social climate, situation in the private and public sphere... etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seweryn View Post
Vote for Union Ante!
I can tell you from the perspective of young EU member and it is my individual point of view
Before our accession there were many apprehensions but finally they didn't come true.
Some “euro-sceptics” threatened with loss of independence or buying Polish ground out by rich West European citizens...
In my opinion membership finally has brought many benefits.
The market is open and you have wide access to any products you wish...
You can traveling without pass and without border check in.
There is many funds that offer you some financial support for many kinds of activities.
Very significant if also the fact some European low regulations were actually better then ours which brought better control over the state institutions.
Especially ecological organization use this possibility to block some “doubtful” investments.

And of course most of your unemployed lower class could move to UK
Polish miracle. Whilest the most of the European countries use Euro, Poles decided to use their own currency. This, to an advantage over all the other countries and states. With their cheap labor, inquality and mass production they fled the smaller economies with no regulation (no borders = no clo zoll) and liquidated most of the local markets (Slovakia, Czech republic, Hungary...). They created such a bad climate here that most of their products are considered as second hand and insufficient, as Chinese... whereas the quality of Chinese exports has increased a lot in the recent years.
Wherever the Poles go (but Romanians, Slovaks too, yet, we don't have such high expat numbers as Poles), they eliminate the lower middle and low classes of that society and significantly decrease the labor wages... resulting in a very unpleasant situation (I believe that UK has had and will have the worst case of all).

Ad 1:
How do they always manage to sell and manufacture at the lowest price...?
Well, by not earning very much... but also purposely devalving their own currency in almost periodic windows so that every few months it is impossible not to buy their products, because nobody will wanna work for such a low price, when no import regulations or controls are at place. And thanks to Brussels, Poles don't even need any special licenses, because their licenses are as valid in Poland, as they are in any other part of the EU.
This market manipulation is delibarate and has affected the smallest economies... to which Croatia will belong, the most. (beautifully described by Germany 5 years ago... as systematic and contraproductive.. if only I could find the article)

Ad 2:
Croats have 1 thing that they can offer. Their sea. Sorry to be such a bad pal, Ante, but you have no scientific advancements, no heavy industry, no weapon industry, no biochemical industry,... nothing. You are a typical tourist destination country in Europe. By losing your own currency, monetary politics, decision making... etc.. you will actively lose control of what's happening in your country. The first thing you can expect, if you vote for EU membership, is radical price increase for food. By radical I mean that 5-10% of your society will immediately go from middle class to low class. Law harmonization will take its tolls as well. Our cultures are not like the western... most of the Slavic population cannot live in such a social climate.

The other thing is, that both Serbia and Croatia are so economically ineffective (and you are better off than Serbians only because you have the sea...), that your politicians will in one way or another force this upon you.

Both our countries have already existed as a part of such unhomogenous coalition of countries. Before 1914 as Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and after 1945 as a member of the Eastern block. What we could have learnt from the coalition of different cultures, languages and socieites working under the same dogma is, that it never works. In the EU you cannot even understand most of the languages that other member states speak. Have a look at the empty seats in Brussels during the important law making and how little they actually do or can agree upon...

Sew, there's a joke about Poles that you might know:
"What's the difference between Poland in Soviet Block and Poland in EU?
During the Soviet era, Poles were in Poland and the Polish government was in exile.
And how is it today? The Polish government is finally at home and the rest of the people are in exile."
All over the Europe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
Their insular attitude prevented them from joining the Schengen
Agreement, which is the agreement which opened Europe up to borderless travel.

It would be painful in many respects, if the UK left the EU, but it would allow Europe to move closer to political
unity and thereby hopefully remove some of the levels of the present administrative complex. And political
unity and the elimination of conflicts was always and still is the ultimate aim of the protagonists of Europe.


Britain has never and will never be a part of the Europe in one meaning. It's much closer to the USA, than Europe. I don't mean geographically, but as a society, culture... It's island nature and strategic position has always been their biggest advantage over other continental rivals. It is their insular "ideology" that in some way keeps their interests safer. Unlike us, they have always had and always will have the option to go with Europe, or go its own way. And if you look at the other insular, isolated "British like society" - Australia, it's the perfect example of how country should be run. By almost any measurable parameter it is the model of a properly working country with almost no debt and perfect border regulation.

Protagonists of the united Europe... who is that?
The Spanish King? Portuguese king? British queen? Belgian queen? Swedish crown couple? These 21st century monarchies do really want to see the Europe united. As do the Germans. They wanted to unite the Europe in 1914 and again in 1939. This time they might have found a newer, more effective method... money.. even without cleansing it first.
These are the European protagonists?


-----

Kostas,
As for the prices of US commodities... it isn't only the Euro, which is getting stronger against the Dollar. Dollar is being devaluated, almost every stable currency is suddenly stronger against the dollar... and there's the paradox. The lower the Dollar:Euro ratio will be, the more will Europeans keep buying from the USA instead of buying from the local, European markets. In this way, lots of money will be exported off the EU and lots of jobs will be lost in the EU. So it's a balance that can upset the stability of many people and their work. In contrast, if the USA exporters to Europe will bring more money to the USA, it will balance their own economy. And the bad ping-pong effect will be in the EU again. This doesn't work in any other WORKING society. But it sure as hell will be happening in the EU.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Daw View Post
Those numbers don't actually show anything.
Social situation hasn't been this bad in at least 2 decades, unemployment rates are (unofficial, our unofficial figures are actually the true one. ) well around 21% - that's an unemployment rate that makes a society unsustainable.

Where? When? How? Please be more specific, otherwise you are not saying anything, which can be
responded to.


If you believe, that the numbers actually reflect the country... search on youtube (???) for a documentary about Argentina called "Memoria del Saqueo". And how a paper number "Argentinean miracle" led to the worst social genocide in Argentinean history and resulted in mass protests and a few day long street war between protesters and the armed forces. Many people died there. Yet the country figures were miraculous. Up until 2001.

Do you really want to send me on a wild goose chase to Argentina, when we are discussing EU membership?


If I say that the situation is worse than dire, I mean it. I don't judge by the numbers or figures, I judge by the quality of life that I could, can and will see among the various classes of people here... social climate, situation in the private and public sphere... etc.
As above: Where? When? How?
I thought, that I could actually reply within the quote, but this programme won't let me without any text outside it.

My numbers are official government statistics, not something some joker happened to post on Youtube




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Daw View Post
Sew, there's a joke about Poles that you might know:
"What's the difference between Poland in Soviet Block and Poland in EU?
During the Soviet era, Poles were in Poland and the Polish government was in exile.
And how is it today? The Polish government is finally at home and the rest of the people are in exile."
All over the Europe.
Bad Joke!
Just in case you have not noticed, the Jaroslaw Kaczyński era is long past. He has been voted out of office c/w
all his obstructionist policies toward the EU. It is now the much more enlightened Donald Tusk era.


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my own and those of others and to learn from them.


Last edited by Jack Daw : 12-16-2011 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
I think with my banana ;)
 
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Daw
Those numbers don't actually show anything.
Social situation hasn't been this bad in at least 2 decades, unemployment rates are (unofficial, our unofficial figures are actually the true one. ) well around 21% - that's an unemployment rate that makes a society unsustainable.

If you believe, that the numbers actually reflect the country... search on youtube for a documentary about Argentina called "Memoria del Saqueo". And how a paper number "Argentinean miracle" led to the worst social genocide in Argentinean history and resulted in mass protests and a few day long street war between protesters and the armed forces. Many people died there. Yet the country figures were miraculous. Up until 2001.

If I say that the situation is worse than dire, I mean it. I don't judge by the numbers or figures, I judge by the quality of life that I could, can and will see among the various classes of people here... social climate, situation in the private and public sphere... etc.
I just colored the parts that explain why there are no figures (yeah, go straight ahead and request them from me... it's like requesting the real figures from Greece... they are officially non existent.. but that's what the society is run like).
Feel free to believe that the numbers actually reflect the reality of what I hear, see and live... what the actual status quo in business and politics is. That the numbers presented among businessmen, the lowering social status... are untrie, because they are not official... Just 2 weeks ago one fifth of the medical staff in the entire country decided to quit, because they wouldn't work under such conditions (there was a memorandum of things... one of which was the privatization of medical services, for which the country can no longer pay and their underpaid salaries... along with the inability and unwillingness of the state representatives to adher to the law in the case of the entire medical sphera)...
One of the articles you can actually read:
A strike in Slovakia: Slovakia's Doctors No | The Economist

An average pension has declined below the level from which one can pay his own rent... Unfortunately, these are no the types of information that the ministry of social affairs puts on their web. Or translates for everybody to read in English...

If you feel like claiming that the artificial 4 year old numbers in your PC are a bigger proof than my real observations, communication with people, unofficial information, TV presented informaton... feel free to believe it. I've lived here for so many years that I can say in comparison, how many cars people can buy, if any, how often do they go shopping, how many shops are closed, how many people have to go and take out the social support each month... yes. Those numbers are not real. I cannot do anything about it. We are a paradise. But only a paper paradise.

----


As for me, the debate is over. I won't defend the realities of life here with an incognito internet personna that wants to convince me how great it must be here, because the purposely manipulated statistics show it to be, even though his/her real experience here is zero.
Yes, from the PC screen numbers can look fine, unreal as they are... but it doesn't have anything to do with the real situation. And if you feel that the numbers are precise, feel free to believe it. I won't be forcing any opinions to your head. I merely answered Ante's request for opinions.
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Zeitgeist - Moving Forward (~2.5hrs)

Last edited by Jack Daw : 12-16-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Big decision, need Your opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olafhenny View Post
Thank you Serweryn, excellent post.

Only one correction though. You can travel freely throughout most of continental Europe, even to
non-member Switzerland, but not to Britain. Their insular attitude prevented them from joining the Schengen
Agreement, which is the agreement which opened Europe up to borderless travel.

It would be painful in many respects, if the UK left the EU, but it would allow Europe to move closer to political
unity and thereby hopefully remove some of the levels of the present administrative complex. And political
unity and the elimination of conflicts was always and still is the ultimate aim of the protagonists of Europe.


You are completely incorrect. There is full and free movement of people across the EU, including the U.K. The Schengen agreement has been superceeeded and enschrined in EU law Directive 2004/38/EC on the right to move and reside freely. Hence why our Polish friends can come here, work and reside freely.
However, the directive recognises our unique status as an island nation, we excercise our right to check documents on entry. One of the reasons for retaining controls is that without them once a non-EU citizen has breached Europe's borders there is no stopping them without passport checks. A quick Google search will show the transit camps near the French coast full of Afghans, Iraqi's, Somali's and others intent on headed for our shores.
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