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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 10-07-2009, 07:32 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Good explanation SBL...thanks. Richard said "water is the TOXIC pesticide". In my dictionary it says " toxic --1. Of or pertaining to a toxin. 2. Harmful, destructive, or deadly; poisonous.
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Old 10-08-2009, 12:42 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Thanks everyone for your feedback on the article, I really appreciate it!

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Old 10-08-2009, 10:23 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Actually, I just read your article and I agree for the most part--especially the misunderstanding of the difference between commercial fertilizers and organic fertilizer. Many forms of organic fertilizer actually have more salt (Sodium chloride--which is not good for plants) than most commercial fertilizers. There are even many here that have suggested using urine for fertilizer--if not diluted as suggested the salt in urine will kill plants (urine is also in manures).

All organic materials must be converted to the same chemicals that are found in commercial fertilizer to become available to the plants. In addition, many organic material are higher in pollutants than any commercial fertilizer--fish meal is often loaded with PCBs and DDT accumulated from the environment by fish through the process of bioaccumulation.

There are no petro chemical in any commercial fertilizer with the possible exception of slow release fertilizers--(I do not know what kind of polymers they use to coat the pellets). Natural gas is used in the Haber process to make ammonia--to consume the oxygen and create a reductive environment.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:26 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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The production of wine and/or beer involves processes that are regarded as synthetic in relation to chemicals.
This is false. It is the addition of Sulfites to wine, that makes it a "synthetic" beverage. (The reason why vegans won't consume it, even tho it is made from grapes) There are companies that DO NOT add sulfites, and their wines have no detectable traces of sulfites, which naturally in trace amounts can occur.

Im also missing the point of how water and grapes magically turn into synthetic chemicals??? Please explain.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:40 AM   #65 (permalink)
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This is very interesting reading thru many of these topics.
It is blatantly obvious everything on this planet, comes from this planet.
There are things we should avoid and things we should seek out.
The reason why many people tho, choose to avoid synthetic, processed,non natural substances to garden with, is not because of the purity, or refinement or even availability... but 2 magic little words called.....INERT INGREDIENTS.

Heavy metals, ya know, arsenic,lead,mercury.... those are wonderful inert ingredients.
Luckily tho, we have laws, to protect us.
We are being protected well, by not knowing what or how much, of these "inert" ingredients are in your common synthetic fert.
Makes one get warm and fuzzy inside.

Good, now that big pink elephant is in the middle of the room. Carry on....
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:56 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
This is very interesting reading thru many of these topics.
It is blatantly obvious everything on this planet, comes from this planet.
There are things we should avoid and things we should seek out.
The reason why many people tho, choose to avoid synthetic, processed,non natural substances to garden with, is not because of the purity, or refinement or even availability... but 2 magic little words called.....INERT INGREDIENTS.

Heavy metals, ya know, arsenic,lead,mercury.... those are wonderful inert ingredients.
Luckily tho, we have laws, to protect us.
We are being protected well, by not knowing what or how much, of these "inert" ingredients are in your common synthetic fert.
Makes one get warm and fuzzy inside.

Good, now that big pink elephant is in the middle of the room. Carry on....
Actually, we know the exact chemical ingredients in fully synthetic fertilizers. Mined fertilizers and manures which are all considered "organic" contain heavy metals and manures aren't regulated. Synthetic fertilizer is the purest fertilizer.
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Old 10-09-2009, 10:58 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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Im also missing the point of how water and grapes magically turn into synthetic chemicals??? Please explain.
OrganicBananac, thanks for your feedback. I'm always interested in alternative perspectives.

In regard to wine, the magic word is "processes", not substances.
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:09 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
This is very interesting reading thru many of these topics.
It is blatantly obvious everything on this planet, comes from this planet.
There are things we should avoid and things we should seek out.
The reason why many people tho, choose to avoid synthetic, processed,non natural substances to garden with, is not because of the purity, or refinement or even availability... but 2 magic little words called.....INERT INGREDIENTS.

Heavy metals, ya know, arsenic,lead,mercury.... those are wonderful inert ingredients.
Luckily tho, we have laws, to protect us.
We are being protected well, by not knowing what or how much, of these "inert" ingredients are in your common synthetic fert.
Makes one get warm and fuzzy inside.

Good, now that big pink elephant is in the middle of the room. Carry on....
Inert ingredients in commercial fertilizers are mainly the residue of the rock from which the minerals were extracted--in addition, if you want, you can usually find out the concentration of the heavy metals as they are required to measure them. Those same heavy metals plus some organic pollutants are also found in most organic materials--but in that case you do not know the concentration. Almost all fish now contain PCBs and DDT--concentrations are dependent on where they come from and where they are in the food chain. Methy Mercury is also common in fish and is much more toxic than the mineral forms usually found in rock.

Carry on...
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Old 10-09-2009, 01:36 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
This is very interesting reading thru many of these topics.
It is blatantly obvious everything on this planet, comes from this planet.
There are things we should avoid and things we should seek out.
The reason why many people tho, choose to avoid synthetic, processed,non natural substances to garden with, is not because of the purity, or refinement or even availability... but 2 magic little words called.....INERT INGREDIENTS.

Heavy metals, ya know, arsenic,lead,mercury.... those are wonderful inert ingredients.
Luckily tho, we have laws, to protect us.
We are being protected well, by not knowing what or how much, of these "inert" ingredients are in your common synthetic fert.
Makes one get warm and fuzzy inside.

Good, now that big pink elephant is in the middle of the room. Carry on....
Your the best Matt! Never have I seen someone believe in something so strongly and be so horribly wrong... almost as bad as my ex-girlfriend actually believing there were a total of 5 continents!(true story!..believe it or not, that was the main proof for her argument that education in Colombia is better than in the U.S.A.!!) That is one of many reasons why I ended my relationship with that numbskull. No matter how good you look, your beliefs speak volumes about who you are!

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Old 10-09-2009, 01:41 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Inert ingredients in commercial fertilizers are mainly the residue of the rock from which the minerals were extracted--in addition, if you want, you can usually find out the concentration of the heavy metals as they are required to measure them. Those same heavy metals plus some organic pollutants are also found in most organic materials--but in that case you do not know the concentration. Almost all fish now contain PCBs and DDT--concentrations are dependent on where they come from and where they are in the food chain. Methy Mercury is also common in fish and is much more toxic than the mineral forms usually found in rock.

Carry on...
Off topic sbl, but do you know exactly what the negatives are associated with consuming mercury? I ask because I absolutely LOVE sushi... and obviously have heard about mercury concerns.. how safe or unsafe is it?? In what amounts?? ... I've easily eaten 2 pounds of raw fish in one sitting. Im at the point where I prefer raw salmon to cooked. Should I stop this practice??

--wanted to specify.. I don't buy raw salmon at the grocer and eat it... I just prefer the sushi variety to cooking it myself. Don't get me wrong..I've tasted several cooked salmon dishes that were amazing...salmon terriyaki comes to mind..

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Old 10-09-2009, 03:10 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Off topic sbl, but do you know exactly what the negatives are associated with consuming mercury? I ask because I absolutely LOVE sushi... and obviously have heard about mercury concerns.. how safe or unsafe is it?? In what amounts?? ... I've easily eaten 2 pounds of raw fish in one sitting. Im at the point where I prefer raw salmon to cooked. Should I stop this practice??

--wanted to specify.. I don't buy raw salmon at the grocer and eat it... I just prefer the sushi variety to cooking it myself. Don't get me wrong..I've tasted several cooked salmon dishes that were amazing...salmon terriyaki comes to mind..
Methyl Mercury is the primary concern in fish--it is a neurotoxin and can cause problems like cerebral palsy, blindness, deafness--the damages are irreversible. The first big example of it was in Minimata Japan. Cooking does not help, the only thing you can do is avoid the type of fish that are highest in mercury like sharks, king mackeral, swordfish and tilefish and limit the frequency of eating fish that are high in mercury. The risk are much higher for pregnant women and children. The recommended frequency of intake for fish like king mackeral is once a month.

Salmon is a good fish--I love it too. Wild caught salmon is suppose to be lower in mercury than farm raised salmon. Generally, the higher a fish is on the food chain, the higher it is likely to be in contaminants like mercury and PCBs--so if Talapia is good to you, you are eating at the bottom of the food chain.
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Old 10-09-2009, 03:42 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Methyl Mercury is the primary concern in fish--it is a neurotoxin and can cause problems like cerebral palsy, blindness, deafness--the damages are irreversible. The first big example of it was in Minimata Japan. Cooking does not help, the only thing you can do is avoid the type of fish that are highest in mercury like sharks, king mackeral, swordfish and tilefish and limit the frequency of eating fish that are high in mercury. The risk are much higher for pregnant women and children. The recommended frequency of intake for fish like king mackeral is once a month.

Salmon is a good fish--I love it too. Wild caught salmon is suppose to be lower in mercury than farm raised salmon. Generally, the higher a fish is on the food chain, the higher it is likely to be in contaminants like mercury and PCBs--so if Talapia is good to you, you are eating at the bottom of the food chain.
I have yet to try shark or any of the above mentioned fish. I have heard that shark has quite a tough texture. I'm definitely willing to try it once though.

Looks like I'll continue eating lots and lots of sushi!

Alright...back to the subject...
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:17 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Shark is firm--I wouldn't call it tough.It does need to be soaked in salty ice water to remove the urea (they do not have a bladder and excrete urea thru the skin).


I used to fish for sharks to eat--mostly small blacktips, but quit because of the mercury levels.
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Old 10-09-2009, 05:26 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Tuna is problematic too which is why we only buy Dave's Tuna. Here is some good mercury info.

Wild Caught Seafood | Canned Fish Nutrition | Mercury Safe Seafood
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:24 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Yeah wine, like my koolaid. Water+sugar+purple.

Anyone now care for some grape juice.

SBL,
I am not disagreeing with what you say, it is good information to know. The sad part is, by law, if heavy metals are added as "inert" ingredients, which they commonly are, legally this information does not have to be disclosed. Now lets all get points straight, there are companies with "pure" products. This is admirable, but like types of beer, may not be for everyone. Disclosure=good.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:42 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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This is false. It is the addition of Sulfite's to wine, that makes it a "synthetic" beverage. (The reason why vegans won't consume it, even tho it is made from grapes) There are companies that DO NOT add sulfites, and their wines have no detectable traces of sulfites, which naturally in trace amounts can occur.

I'm also missing the point of how water and grapes magically turn into synthetic chemicals??? Please explain.
i am a chef. all wine has sulfides in it to some degree. it part of the natural chemical make up of grapes and the process of making alcohols.

for a wine to be labeled no sulfides it just has to not have any added. that doesn't mean there are not any in the first place. go to the USDA web site they have listed all the labeling requirements for wines

By the way many of the labels that are on foods like "Natural or Organic" do not mean what you would normally think they mean for a complete list of what can and cant be added to a product again go to the USDA food labeling requirements section i don't have the URL off the top of my head sorry
there are also many consumer advocacy web pages that list in clearer more simplified terms what can and cant be put in to your food by the way the USA food industry can pretty much put any thing in your food or allow any thing to be in your food it wants to as long as the label it properly for example there can even be Benzene in your food as long as its below a certain level and theirs no scientific evidence that benzene in any level is safe but your Government thinks there is we allow thousands of additives in are food the next highest alloable food additives i believe and don't quote me on this is Germany which allows under 40 additives

not to preach but its awfully hard to be a purist unless you want to live like a Monk in the dark ages cloistered away from the world so you are not contaminated by it get my point!
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:01 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

I don't know that sulfides naturally occur on wine grapes or not. I did take a class on wine-making about 30 years ago and don't remember much of what I learned. My understanding/perception was that most of the sulfites come from sulfur dusting (or spraying wettable sulfur powder) in the vineyards to reduce mold on the grapes. And then some wines will be made with grape juice that has had sulfur added to further kill any bacteria strains so that they can use strains that provide the desirable results they're looking for.

By the way, my college class was called Fermented Foods and was quite popular because of the beer and wine subject, but the professor would surprise students in some quarters and teach them about other foods instead, thereby decreasing demand for the class a little bit. My wife learned about making sauerkraut and such when she took the class the following year!

I wonder if Tog would be proud of the derailing of this thread.....
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:47 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Damaclese is right, sulfites are natural in wines--made by the yeast during the fermentation process. The amount in a finished wine (without any added) can vary significantly and be as high as 250 ppm in wine with no added sulfites. If you look at commercial labels, they do not say "no sulfites", they say "no added sulfites". The sulfite concentation most winemakers shoot for is about 50 ppm. Sulfite is necessary in wines to protect it from oxidation and prevent the growth of harmful bacteria.

check this link: Sulfites in Wine

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Old 10-10-2009, 01:56 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Tuna is problematic too which is why we only buy Dave's Tuna. Here is some good mercury info.

Wild Caught Seafood | Canned Fish Nutrition | Mercury Safe Seafood
I did not include tuna in the list of high mercury fish because it is not included in the list published by EPA, however, I have always believed that is a political decision, not a scientific decision--they are at the top of the food chain and are longer lived than most fish.

The link you provided is probably correct in suggesting that the mercury levels are lower in fish from colder water as the basic conversion of inorganic mercury to methyl mercury is done by bacteria in the sediment. It is always safer to eat smaller fish and lower on the food chain.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:14 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Yeah wine, like my koolaid. Water+sugar+purple.

Anyone now care for some grape juice.

SBL,
I am not disagreeing with what you say, it is good information to know. The sad part is, by law, if heavy metals are added as "inert" ingredients, which they commonly are, legally this information does not have to be disclosed. Now lets all get points straight, there are companies with "pure" products. This is admirable, but like types of beer, may not be for everyone. Disclosure=good.
I am not certain, but I believe that fertilizer companies are required to analyze the heavy metal concentrations in their fertilizer and if you want the information you can ask the company and they should provide it. There are limits to the amounts that can be found in fertilizers for sale. No company is going to add harmful contaminants to their products, but as I said things like heavy metals are "natural" contaminants in rocks--rocks that are used as the source of elements like potassium.

BTW, are you aware that all natural potassium is radioactive? People who live in brick or concrete structures get about twice as much background radiation because of the potassium in brick and concrete. Only isotopically purified and synthesized potassium is not radiocative--but nobody can afford that as a fertilizer. Essentially all natural phosphate rock is contaminated with uranium as well--enough to more than double the levels of background radiation on farmlands. Processing removes some of the contamination, but then I guess some people think that processing is bad.
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