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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 10-07-2009, 01:05 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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Originally Posted by momoese View Post
So if a person drinks beer and uses beer to control slugs from eating their lettuce etc, that's no worse than drinking beer and then spraying toxic pesticides on the produce and or soil to control slugs?
The word pesticide is defined by use, not by substance. If you drown a rat in water, then water is the toxic pesticide.

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Originally Posted by momoese View Post
Secondly, what if the person is drinking organic wines and or beers and is using them to kill slugs and snails?
The production of wine and/or beer involves processes that are regarded as synthetic in relation to chemicals.

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Originally Posted by momoese View Post
Thirdly, what about people who don't drink any beer or wine but choose to use them to kill slugs and snails?
The cost would be cheaper per application to use iron phosphate, which is also far more natural than beer or wine.

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PS, using wine to kill slugs is news to me. From what I have heard it's the yeast in the beer the slugs are attracted to.
The point is that it is a contradiction to drink wine and yet complain about the processes and substances used in some pest control products.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:09 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

I'm a little confused here too. Never heard of wine or rum attracting snails, but maybe it does!
quote: "Now some gardeners put beer out in trays or cans to attract and kill slugs at night."
My Dad told me he learned 40 - 50 yrs ago to put beer out in a shallow tray (not a can!) & the slugs crawl in & drown. I still do this, & it's nothing NEW.
Beer is not as expensive as buying the stuff you mentioned. You can use the leftovers -- stale beer left in cans or pitchers will do just fine!!
Just a note: pour all left over beer & soda on your plants or compost. They don't care if it's stale...they love the sugar!

OK, you posted just before I did. But, I'd like to know why beer & wine is not "natural".

Quote:
"It is a contradiction to think that you are somehow living healthier by using beer to control slugs on your vegetables and herbs if you also drink beer -- not to mention wine or rum!"
I'm not picking on you Richard, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Could you please explain? Thanks.

I posted this before I read what you wrote. I didn't know that iron phosphate is more "natural" than wine & beer. Is it really??!! I make wine. Is drinking it bad for me? YIKES
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:27 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

While it is true that pesticide is defined as: "an agent used to destroy pests"..
I also feel your analogy is a little far fetched. You can't compare 'Raid' to Beer or Wine in terms of potential side effects to the environment and to yourself if one were to consume it. Granted, Raid is an extreme example.. but, that is why I feel the analogy of beer and pesticides is a little too generalized.

Not everyone drinks beer, but all life on this planet is dependant on water in one way or another. So, when you point out that water can be used as a pesticide.. I feel it proves my point that the analogy.. or more precisely, the definition.. is far too general.

I don't usually have a problem with slugs. If I see one where I don't want one, I pick it up and send it airborne into the next neighborhood.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:20 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

LOL, Mario, but you better watch out. Somebody might report you to the cops for pest abuse or something. I don't think I've ever thrown a slug. I work outside a lot a night and am amazed at how many of them are crawling around "composting" dead plant material.
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:39 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Forgot to mention that pets getting into snail bait is very dangerous as well. I actually know someone who apparently didn't read the label and ended up with one very sick dog and a large vet bill.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:07 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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... I feel it proves my point that the analogy.. or more precisely, the definition.. is far too general.
It's not my definition. You'll have to take it up with the USDA, or in California with the Department of Pesticide Regulation.

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Forgot to mention that pets getting into snail bait is very dangerous as well.
That would be true of Snail Bait containing Metaldehyde. The snail bait I mentioned is Sluggo, which is iron phosphate. It is safe for pets (mammals, rodents, and reptiles) and humans as well.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:18 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Thanks but I'll continue using beer. At least the slugs can get a little happy time in the beer bath before dying, and as Patty said it's free!
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:38 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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Thanks but I'll continue using beer. At least the slugs can get a little happy time in the beer bath before dying, and as Patty said it's free!
If it's leftover, then go for it! (Leftover beer is unheard-of around here.)
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:21 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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It's not my definition. You'll have to take it up with the USDA, or in California with the Department of Pesticide Regulation.
I'd like to see a reference to this, Richard, as I have never read it as general as you have written it.

For instance, the fertilizer UN-32 is a common liquid fertilizer used by farmers. Some orchardists will spray it in their tree rows a day before irrigation with the added benefit of killing weed pests fairly well (burn down, not systemic). It is not registered as a pesticide.
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:41 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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Originally Posted by Patty in Wisc View Post
I'm a little confused here too. Never heard of wine or rum attracting snails, but maybe it does!
quote: "Now some gardeners put beer out in trays or cans to attract and kill slugs at night."
My Dad told me he learned 40 - 50 yrs ago to put beer out in a shallow tray (not a can!) & the slugs crawl in & drown. I still do this, & it's nothing NEW.
Beer is not as expensive as buying the stuff you mentioned. You can use the leftovers -- stale beer left in cans or pitchers will do just fine!!
Just a note: pour all left over beer & soda on your plants or compost. They don't care if it's stale...they love the sugar!

OK, you posted just before I did. But, I'd like to know why beer & wine is not "natural".

Quote:
"It is a contradiction to think that you are somehow living healthier by using beer to control slugs on your vegetables and herbs if you also drink beer -- not to mention wine or rum!"
I'm not picking on you Richard, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Could you please explain? Thanks.

I posted this before I read what you wrote. I didn't know that iron phosphate is more "natural" than wine & beer. Is it really??!! I make wine. Is drinking it bad for me? YIKES
This is from EPA: Iron phosphate is ubiquitous in nature. It is a solid. It is not volatile and does not readily dissolve in water, which minimizes its dispersal beyond where it is applied. It is applied to soil as part of a pellet that also contains bait to attract snails and slugs. When the pests eat the pellets, the iron phosphate interferes with calcium metabolism in their gut, causing the snails and slugs to stop eating almost immediately. They die three to six days later.

Beer an wine are not ubiquitous in nature, but require synthesis from natural materials--much like chemical fertilizers. Nitrate, ammonia, can be synthesized from air (a natural material). Phosphate and potassium are common minerals in rocks and cannot be synthesized, but they can be processed from natural materials-- extracted and made more available for plants and provided in known concentrations.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:43 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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It's not my definition. You'll have to take it up with the USDA, or in California with the Department of Pesticide Regulation
Pluto had been considered a planet for over half a century. People felt the definition of a planet was too general, so they changed it to exclude Pluto and similar objects from planetary status.

I wouldn't go as far as to try and change the definition found in the Merriam Webster Online dictionary. I also wouldn't equate water with pesticides simply because it can be deemed appropriate according to the meaning of the word.

Richard, you posted a joke in the "dumb jokes" thread that with a little research, will lead you to the site of the "Flying Sphagetti Monster". Bobby Henderson used the same method to get his point across. The definition of intelligent design was too broad, so he used that to his advantage in order to make his point. -I find the whole thing hilarious by the way.. truly classic-In the end, it is considered satire.

Last edited by supermario : 10-07-2009 at 02:07 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar...what's new?
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:13 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Stumbled upon this in another forum. It seems you can use an upside down melon rind too, but I would imagine that there would be more than just slugs attracted to that!

"With the melon rind, you can collect the melon rind (and overstuffed slugs) the next morning and dispose of them"
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:30 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Terminoligy

Thanks for the info on the mellon. Have one that was on its way to the chicken yard. I will try that first maybe the chickens will get more than mellon tomorow.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:38 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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I'd like to see a reference to this, Richard, as I have never read it as general as you have written it.
Here's one of many, I think you own a copy? Pesticide Safety -- A Reference Manual for Private Applicators, 2nd Ed.

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For instance, the fertilizer UN-32 is a common liquid fertilizer used by farmers. Some orchardists will spray it in their tree rows a day before irrigation with the added benefit of killing weed pests fairly well (burn down, not systemic). It is not registered as a pesticide.
Of course, it is illegal for a commercial farm to use any substance for a purpose which it is not labeled.

Supermario -- I believe I addressed your concerns in the article that started yesterdays discussion: Beer Is A Synthetic Pesticide.
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:03 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Nope, don't own it and have never seen it even though I've had my private applicators permit for 15 years. Surely the USDA or DPR would have an online reference to the definition you're using, if it exists.

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Of course, it is illegal for a commercial farm to use any substance for a purpose which it is not labeled.
It is not illegal to strip spray your orchard with UN-32. The fact that it kills weeds is a secondary consequence. You can also kill many pests, including weeds, by flooding open fields (another common practice). That also is not illegal.
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:49 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

My buddy Millet says he blasts mites & aphids w/ his water hose. Outside, that works better than spraying w/ dishsoap & hot water! I do it. So I guess my water & dishsoap are pesticides (?)
My GF lifted a board in her garden & there was a bunch of slugs under it. She sprinkled a little salt on them & they dissintegrated! Also, mix isopropyl alcohol w/ water & spray them in their eye & they melt. Sounds like fun things to do after a rain!!
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:00 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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Supermario -- I believe I addressed your concerns in the article that started yesterdays discussion: Beer Is A Synthetic Pesticide.
Not really. If I understand correctly, you are trying to debunk what people commonly believe about pesticides.. I just feel using a very broad definition of the word pesticide to make your point is confusing.

Here is an example from your writings to illustrate what I mean:
Quote:
"It is a contradiction to think that you are somehow living healthier by using beer to control slugs on your vegetables and herbs if you also drink beer -- not to mention wine or rum!"
Why would the fact that you drink it or not make any difference? Studies show that alcohol consumed in moderation is actually good for you. So, one can make the argument that they are indeed living a healthier lifestyle by using beer as slug bait!



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My GF lifted a board in her garden & there was a bunch of slugs under it. She sprinkled a little salt on them & they dissintegrated! Also, mix isopropyl alcohol w/ water & spray them in their eye & they melt. Sounds like fun things to do after a rain!!
LOL!! and I thought I was bad!!

Last edited by supermario : 10-07-2009 at 05:42 PM. Reason: combined second post with this one
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:31 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

I thought this thread had died a well deserved death but alas it has not.
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Old 10-07-2009, 06:12 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

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The word pesticide is defined by use, not by substance. If you drown a rat in water, then water is the toxic pesticide.
Sorry, but I can't/won't believe that.
A friend of mine drowned. Is the lake he drowned in a toxic pesticide?
Should I say he got killed by a toxic pesticide...called water?
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:12 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: Terminoligy

To be serious here, I think Richard is mostly correct, the word "pesticide" means to kill pest, so anything that will kill pest is a pesticide. But, from a legal standpoint, EPA or USDA only look at the purpose a product is sold for--it's intended use based on the product label or advertising. Water, dishwashing soap, beer, and gasoline are all pesticides in that sense if they are used to kill bugs or pest, but they are not being sold for that purpose and therefore are not considered pesticides by EPA and USDA.
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