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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 08-11-2009, 10:05 PM   #81 (permalink)
 
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Exclamation Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

There have been many interesting posts on this topic. The more I read about chemical fertilizers, the more I realize how the chemical companies have contributed to the world's health problems and soil destruction. There is no way that one can make a legitimate argument for using chemical fertilizers...they are not needed and never existed until the chemical companies had to dump their destructive ammo making chemicals on the unsuspecting public as plant food. What a perfect scam! Plants don't need food from bags or bins. The nutrients that plants need are produced by microbial life that is present in well cared for soil. Now that the land has been raped and fed these chemicals by big ag so that they can produce food and fuel for the masses, all sits well for the uninformed. Folks, please wake up to the fact that this practice is all deadly wrong and destructive to the good soil life.....each handful of chemical salt destroys the nutrient producing life in the soil. Today there are still farmers in the world who farm the old fashioned organic way and they out produce big ag and live healthier, longer lives as do the consumers of their produce. What more proof do you need? Stop believing that the current chemical application status quo is a beneficial method just because it's all you know or you depend on it for your livelihood.....it never was and never could be beneficial. Go natural and live the difference, if not for your sake, for your grandchildren's sake and the sake of the earth. When you convert, there will be a time lag while your soil recovers and your pocketbook will be hurt; however, in the long run everyone will benefit. Isn't that what this life is all about?
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:46 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
Ah, personal attacks.
That ALL you got?
Nope. I am talking about your opinion which is comprised of over-generalizations. It would be great to get down to specifics instead of sweeping everything under the rugs of "chemical fertilizers" and "the soil food web".
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Old 08-11-2009, 11:08 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
Every answer to these questions can be found by taking the advice that was already given... im just saying. Read up.
Key topics- microbes, soil food web, nutrient cycling...
My reading material doesn't consist of advertisements.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:42 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Educational material should not consist of ignorant comments either. Thanks for doing your part.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:14 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Specifics are salts kill microbes, so do pesticides, herbicides and fungicides...
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:38 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Holy cow! All this talk about chemicals and ...... I'm getting lost here! Someone mentioned how bad it is for us to eat our veggies grown with chemical ferts. What about the boxed dinners alot of you buy? I use miracle grow & banana fuel ferts which you may say is bad, but I also make my own macaroni & cheese, tomato sauce, jellies, pasta & much more, from scratch. Do you know how many chemicals & preservitives they use in them? I have my compost bin & dump in the garden, but I also use the water soluble ferts - good & bad.
They feed & inject chemicals into chickens, turkeys, cows etc, to make them bigger, & we EAT them. But, I'd rather buy that & make my own home made soups than buy a can of Campbells soup. Ooooh, and the SODIUM & preservatives in it!
I guess we just can't win in this chemical world
I might just go smoke a joint now -- chemical free LOL.
Sorry for my ignorance here on this subject of 'organic'---just my 2 cents worth

I'm really allergic to pot
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Old 08-13-2009, 02:11 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

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Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
Specifics are salts kill microbes, so do pesticides, herbicides and fungicides...
You are over-generalizing. There are many salts that do not kill microbes, among them several thousand that are used in water-soluble fertilizers. Pesticide is a legal term in every state, meaning any substance labeled to kill a pest. Borax is an example of a pesticide which applied to the surface in moderate dosages kills ants but has no effect on microbes. And so on. For more information on attributes of chemicals on microbes and the environment, please see PAN Pesticide Database
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Old 08-13-2009, 03:59 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

All of the fertilizer samples in the image below contain chemicals: some non-synthetic, some synthetic.



From the left:
  1. Granular "Triple-15". In the fertilizer industry, granular refers to a nutrient that is cast on the ground, typically where the irrigation water will hit it. In this particular case, several university studies have demonstrated that soil biology is adversely affected when triple-15 (and some similar products) are applied directly to bare soil. However, when applied to a thick layer of mulch the results range from negative to positive depending upon (a) the underlying soil, (b) the nature of the mulch, and (c) the leaf-fall from surrounding plants.
  2. Pelletized "Pure-N-Natural". pelletized means that a combination of materials were pressed or baked into a solid, then crushed or pelletized, and sometimes coated (e.g., osmocote). These again are intended to be applied directly to the soil. This particular product contains nutrient chemicals -- both major and minor, non-nutrient chemicals -- e.g., humic acids, plus mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria all coexisting in the same compound. It is one of several excellent soil conditioners and inoculants on the market. Note that once you inoculate your soil -- you need not do it again for many years if ever ... especially if the soil is maintained with a top layer of mulch. Five to seven years ago I inoculated my orchard soils with this product and since then annual soil tests have shown that no further biotics need be added.
  3. Water Soluble 20-5-5. water soluble means that the product was designed to be dissolved in water before applying to plants. If you were to apply them directly to the ground, a large percentage of the nutrients would simply escape to the atmosphere. Most agricultural water solubles (including this one) are beneficial to organisms in the soil -- in fact the water solubles often count on microbes to process some of the minerals into a form useful by plants.
  4. Neem Seed Meal. A meal is a ground or shredded plant material. In this case, Neem Seed Meal is comprised of seed casings and fibers left over after Neem Seed Oil is pressed from the seeds. The meal is high in nitrogen for a plant material (~ 5-1-1) and has been used in south Asia for centuries. It is not a significant insecticide but the strong odor will drive away some varieties of insects, bugs, and most teenagers.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:27 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

I think you over-generalized Richard.
This thread is titled "Organic" fertilizer.
Please discuss the topic (ORGANIC) or move on to another thread.
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Last edited by OrganicBananac : 08-13-2009 at 05:36 PM. Reason: just reminding what the topic is.. ORGANIC
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Old 08-13-2009, 08:11 PM   #90 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

This is my over generalized opinion.

Salts kill microbe’s makes no sense to me.

I think if an area is hit hard with fert or salt, sure it will kill what it touches. But with this death, does this not make food for other things and make it a spot for growth of more microbes. I think with proper application there is no way to hurt the microbe community to a point of collapse. I am with you on everything else just not the fert. I chose not to use any pesticides or herbicides at my house. I have a good population of birds, lizards, bugs, worms, and microbes in my yard. I just do not see the ill effects in using synthetic fertilizer. My soil and tap water are salty; I bet the microbes in my soil are probably salt lovers to begin with.
I also am using all my urine in my yard because of this thread. Free fertilizer and saves water

some good reading
Alternative Soil Amendments (Summary)
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:04 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
Educational material should not consist of ignorant comments either. Thanks for doing your part.
Where are my ignorant comments?

I posted the reasons why purely organic material would be a disaster for the environment. Read here

You replied by saying that I'm wrong and you have yet to show any factual evidence. You provided links that have nothing to do with commercial agriculture or using purely organic material.

You further stated that I need to "read up" however I've already studied soil science. If you would like comments that are on topic, you can start by providing a counter point instead of posting random links and attacks.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:30 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

This thread is getting out of hand. Everyone just agree to disagree. Mods please feel free to close this.
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Old 08-13-2009, 09:33 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Old 08-13-2009, 11:14 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
Please discuss the topic (ORGANIC) or move on to another thread.
Three out of the four listed (here) are organic, and two of those meet the ultra-stringent requirements of CCOF.
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Old 08-14-2009, 07:45 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Three out of the four listed (here) are organic, and two of those meet the ultra-stringent requirements of CCOF.
You shouldn't have wasted your time Richard. It's obvious that you are educated on the subject and this guy is in his own world.

Organicbananac.. any point you were trying to make was lost waaaay back when you made a comment about SUV's. Your rants come across as nothing more than hippy logic. On top of that, your poor attempts at witt make you come across as a jerk. You cannot force your beliefs on others. Don't get me wrong though... it has provided me with a good laugh from time to time.. so, feel free to give me your worst.



Heated debates are the best ones, but don't resort to insults and sarcastic remarks just because others don't agree with you. You even refused to introduce yourself in the introduction section.. why? Do you also show up to local gatherings with a mask on??
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:14 PM   #96 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

I grow because its fun and I have 6 kids that love to eat! The only thing I am doing for the earth is having the kids pick up waste from the neighbors for my compost pile to keep it out of landfills! hehe Oh ya and half of my 5 acres is totally left untouched...

Back on topic...

For those of you that do not want to pee in a cup. We collect hair from when we get our haircuts and put it in the compost. Adds tons of nitrogen! I have a friend that owns a salon and every once in a while I get a bag of hair to add to the pile!
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Old 08-15-2009, 01:24 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

For all with fear of going to websites, Soil Food Web Inc. is the authority in testing microbiology in soil. They have a nice safe website loaded with information, they ARE a lab. Studying many of their methods have led me to the information i know, AND continue to learn. I can understand when some people don't understand simple facts are, simple. But that is sometimes the beauty of working with nature, it is easier and continues to reward the worker by only becoming better and better. The reason why many people do not understand this type of soil comprehension, is also because it is relatively new. It was not until the 1990's that scientists even understood what mychorrizal fungi even did. They knew it was there, but not what the purpose was. Myc. fungi are just one of the pieces that fit in to the whole cycle of life, known as the "soil food web". Do some reading, learning, and thinking and find out why there is such an importance with AACT,fungi,bacteria,nematodes,protozoa,worms and all other aspects of nature that we can and cannot see. It is this biology that is doing the work.

Ripped from Wiki direct: Osmosis
"Suppose an animal or a plant cell is placed in a solution of sugar or salt in water.
If the medium is hypotonic — a dilute solution, with a higher water concentration than the cell — the cell will gain water through osmosis.
If the medium is isotonic — a solution with exactly the same water concentration as the cell — there will be no net movement of water across the cell membrane.
If the medium is hypertonic — a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell — the cell will lose water by osmosis.
Essentially, this means that if a cell is put in a solution which is has a solute concentration higher than its own, then it will shrivel up, and if it is put in a solution with a lesser solute concentration than its own, the cell will expand and burst."

Now on the scale of microbes, chloramine is added in water as a disinfectant chemical, but when brewing an aerated compost tea, this chemical is very bad for the brew. You are killing the life you are attempting to brew. Shooting yourself in your foot, literally. The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And,
"If the medium is hypertonic — a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell — the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Now moisture in soil has an effect on concentration of salts as well. Think of an evaporating cup of salt water.
One step forward, two backwards is not a good "system".

The bottom line in the distinction of organic & inorganic is really, are you doing the work (manually feeding and dosing) or are you allowing the microbiology to do the work for you (using added materials to give what the plants need, when the plants need it). The biology does this work for you. Let me remind everyone biology is as small as bacteria to as large as birds and other critters. Everything has its part, whether we like it or not, and our part as gardeners is to tend, not micromanage. There are no bailouts or golden bananas.

For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.

Next time we talk about INERT ingredients. (Legally, you have the right, to not know!!)
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Old 08-15-2009, 09:47 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.
My picture was to point that (a) there are chemicals in every fertilizer and (b) it is incorrect that "chemicals kill microbial life".

As for OrganicBananac's analysis of the picture:
  1. Inorganic and a poor choice for my soils.
  2. 100% organic -- you can view the ingredients online with a little effort
  3. 100% organic -- depending on your definition
  4. 100% organic -- the cost to consumers varies a lot depending upon location and supplier.
For calculating the true cost of fertilizers, please see this thread: The Economics of the Fertilizer Numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
... The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And, "If the medium is hypertonic — a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell — the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Nutrient salts such as #3 are never applied in concentrated solution. Dosages range from 100ppm to 1000ppm. At this rate, the nutrients are beneficial to both the plant and soil life.
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Old 08-15-2009, 10:01 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganicBananac View Post
For all with fear of going to websites, Soil Food Web Inc. is the authority in testing microbiology in soil. They have a nice safe website loaded with information, they ARE a lab. Studying many of their methods have led me to the information i know, AND continue to learn. I can understand when some people don't understand simple facts are, simple. But that is sometimes the beauty of working with nature, it is easier and continues to reward the worker by only becoming better and better. The reason why many people do not understand this type of soil comprehension, is also because it is relatively new. It was not until the 1990's that scientists even understood what mychorrizal fungi even did. They knew it was there, but not what the purpose was. Myc. fungi are just one of the pieces that fit in to the whole cycle of life, known as the "soil food web". Do some reading, learning, and thinking and find out why there is such an importance with AACT,fungi,bacteria,nematodes,protozoa,worms and all other aspects of nature that we can and cannot see. It is this biology that is doing the work.

Ripped from Wiki direct: Osmosis
"Suppose an animal or a plant cell is placed in a solution of sugar or salt in water.
If the medium is hypotonic — a dilute solution, with a higher water concentration than the cell — the cell will gain water through osmosis.
If the medium is isotonic — a solution with exactly the same water concentration as the cell — there will be no net movement of water across the cell membrane.
If the medium is hypertonic — a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell — the cell will lose water by osmosis.
Essentially, this means that if a cell is put in a solution which is has a solute concentration higher than its own, then it will shrivel up, and if it is put in a solution with a lesser solute concentration than its own, the cell will expand and burst."

Now on the scale of microbes, chloramine is added in water as a disinfectant chemical, but when brewing an aerated compost tea, this chemical is very bad for the brew. You are killing the life you are attempting to brew. Shooting yourself in your foot, literally. The same goes for nutrient salts, as stated on the wiki quote above because remember the aspect of exactly what those salts are, concentrated. And,
"If the medium is hypertonic — a concentrated solution, with a lower water concentration than the cell — the cell will lose water by osmosis."
Now moisture in soil has an effect on concentration of salts as well. Think of an evaporating cup of salt water.
One step forward, two backwards is not a good "system".

The bottom line in the distinction of organic & inorganic is really, are you doing the work (manually feeding and dosing) or are you allowing the microbiology to do the work for you (using added materials to give what the plants need, when the plants need it). The biology does this work for you. Let me remind everyone biology is as small as bacteria to as large as birds and other critters. Everything has its part, whether we like it or not, and our part as gardeners is to tend, not micromanage. There are no bailouts or golden bananas.

For Richards picture.
1. NOPE
2. I tend to enjoy not paying for someone's repackaging of ingredients, suspect till viewing of ingredient list, then may be proven not guilty.
3. NOPE neon organic,eh?
4. Good stuff, but again there are better less costly alternatives.

Next time we talk about INERT ingredients. (Legally, you have the right, to not know!!)
There ya go friend! See how much more civilized you come across when you simply state your point without personal attacks?

Now, let's say I stop buying fertilizer.. I have several trees, but we'll use my most demanding tree as an example. My Persian Lime tree is about 5 ft tall and wide. I planted it roughly two years ago. It is constantly under attack by insects and will quickly show signs of nutrient deficiency. So, if I wanted to use only certified organic methods.. what would I need to add?.. how much?.. and how often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
For calculating the true cost of fertilizers, please see this thread: The Economics of the Fertilizer Numbers
Execellent thread! Thanks!

Last edited by Jack Daw : 08-15-2009 at 01:42 PM. Reason: 2 posts from the same user in a row, Merged.
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Old 08-15-2009, 10:26 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Default Re: "Organic" Fertillizer

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post
There ya go friend! See how much more civilized you come across when you simply state your point without personal attacks?

Now, let's say I stop buying fertilizer.. I have several trees, but we'll use my most demanding tree as an example. My Persian Lime tree is about 5 ft tall and wide. I planted it roughly two years ago. It is constantly under attack by insects and will quickly show signs of nutrient deficiency. So, if I wanted to use only certified organic methods.. what would I need to add?.. how much?.. and how often?
For citrus trees, don't go organic--it can kill your tree. I mulch most of my fruit trees and shrubs, but I lost several citrus trees to root rot before I found out that mulching citrus promotes root rot. I now keep the soil bare under my citrus trees and apply 2-4 cups a month of "Chemical" fertilizer--they are loaded with fruit!
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