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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 08-17-2009, 08:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja View Post
However, very shortly I am going to be out there spraying round-up to try to get some longer term control, because guess what, weeds increase humidity and can aggrevate disease and they can also increase the likelihood of frost and I'd rather not get into a major losing battle with sigatoka.
Glyphosate is a good non selective herbicide for just abut every plant except Bermuda grass. I have the equivalent of a PDR for weed control. Under glyphosate for bermuda it gives three different application rates. One for actively growing bermuda to control weeds without killing the Bermuda; a winter rate for the same thing and a kill rate. Glyphosate is not an effective herbicide for Bermuda. If you are dealing with primarily Bermuda, I would recommend using either Fusilade of Fusilade DX, whichever you can get your hands on. One is approved for greenhouse use and the other is not. It is slower than glyphosate but once applied, it is nearly 100% effective. Also it is considered an over the top spray for numerous plants. Bananas are not listed but I have had no incidental damage from drift or unintended application.

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Old 08-17-2009, 09:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Independent studies show that it is indeed toxic to humans, mammals and amphibians. Monsanto actually lost a French lawsuit over false advertising the safety of this product.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
Independent studies show that it is indeed toxic to humans, mammals and amphibians. Monsanto actually lost a French lawsuit over false advertising the safety of this product.
Mitchel, you are correct about the effects of glyphosate on contact with all of the above. However, after application glyphosate breaks down with a 1/2 life of 2 hours:
in 2 hours: 1/2 remains
in 4 hours: 1/4 remains
in 6 hours: 1/8 remains
...
in 24 hours: below toxic levels for all of the above.
Responsible application is the key. And for heavens sake, don't drink it!

Monsanto's patent for glyphosate ran out decades ago. You can go to an independent nursery and buy a quart of generic glyphosate for 1/4 to 1/2 the price of the same quantity and concentration of Monsanto's "Roundup" product -- and without all the additives. There is even a super-Roundup on the market now from Monsanto that contains glyphosate plus a brush killing chemical used by Ortho in years gone by.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
Independent studies show that it is indeed toxic to humans, mammals and amphibians. Monsanto actually lost a French lawsuit over false advertising the safety of this product.
Can you provide some links to human toxicity--everything I can find including EPA data shows it as less toxic than table salt.

Courts decisions are not always the best source for accurate info--you have non-professional people making emotional decisions.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Glyphosate Formulations Induce Apoptosis and Necrosis in Human Umbilical, Embryonic, and Placental Cells - Chemical Research in Toxicology (ACS Publications)
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:43 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Mitchel, you are correct about the effects of glyphosate on contact with all of the above. However, after application glyphosate breaks down with a 1/2 life of 2 hours:
in 2 hours: 1/2 remains
in 4 hours: 1/4 remains
in 6 hours: 1/8 remains
...
in 24 hours: below toxic levels for all of the above.
Responsible application is the key. And for heavens sake, don't drink it!
There seems to be a lot of conficting data on the half life. Most that I seen is much longer than what you have suggested, including data from the state of CA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Monsanto's patent for glyphosate ran out decades ago.
This is true and it's speculated to be the reason for the creation of Roundup Ready crops.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:30 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
This is true and it's speculated to be the reason for the creation of Roundup Ready crops.
By continuing to equivocate Glyphosate with Roundup, you are furthering the advertising ambitions of the Monsanto company.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:56 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

I am correcting a misleading statement made and later defended by SBL, how exactly is that equivocating? I have provided proof and can provide more if need be. We are talking about the product "Roundup" are we not?
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:49 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
We are talking about the product "Roundup" are we not?
No. We are talking about the chemical Glyphosate. Monsanto is not the dominant producer of this chemical. The only places I have seen the phrase "Roundup Ready" used is in (a) advertisements from seed subsidaries of the Monsanto company and (b) editorials in organic-lifestyle magazines. In the commercial agricultural world, the phrase "Glyphosate tolerant" is seen almost exclusively. A farmer who hears the product name "Roundup" laughs because the price per gallon is a joke.
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Guys/Gals, why bother with roundup at all? I apply a thick layer of mulch around my banana plants and pull out the very few weeds that appear by hand. You don't even need to buy that much mulch since you can use the banana plants themselves! Once your plant produces bananas, you will have cut it down anyways, so why not use it as mulch?(assuming it wasn't infected with anything) I have run out of people to give my sword suckers to, so I chop those up and toss them on the pile too. Once your "mulch" is about 4 inches thick, you should see very few weeds.

As for other plants and trees, well mulch does not work for all. While you can use it for pretty much any plant, it will need to be at least 8 inches away from the trunk in most cases. In those cases, I pull weeds by hand every few weeks... or I get lazy, let the weeds grow.. and then get inspired one day and go pull them all out at once. I haven't experienced any ill effects yet.

Now, a few questions if y'all don't mind..

I've tried several pesticides and am not 100% sold on any of the ones I've tried.(Organocide, Bonide orchard spray, malathion oil, parifine, and a few others) --What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it?...how about while the tree does not have fruit on it?...is there a difference?.. is there an all in 1 product I can rely on, or would I have to use a combination of two or more products?

Im sorry if Im taking the thread off topic..

Last edited by supermario : 08-18-2009 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Apology
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:33 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
There seems to be a lot of conficting data on the half life.
1/2 life in a barrel is very different from 1/2 life diluted in water and applied to plants & soil minerals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post
Guys/Gals, why bother with roundup at all ...
Glyphosate was brought up under the context of agricultural use. The only reference to home use was the statement I made: "Overuse by consumers is a serious problem."

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post
... What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it? ...
Green Light Fruit Tree Spray.
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Last edited by Richard : 08-18-2009 at 12:35 PM. Reason: forgot to answer second question!
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:39 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
No. We are talking about the chemical Glyphosate.
Richard, below is a quote from SBL. It is this statement that I have been responding to in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbl View Post
Just in case you have any worries about roundup--it is very non toxic to mammals and degrades quick in soil--It is basically glycine and phosphate--in essence an organic fertilizer!


As for the half life numbers:
Quote:
Glyphosate is highly adsorbed on most soils especially those with high organic content. The compound is so strongly attracted to the soil that little is expected to leach from the applied area. Microbes are primarily responsible for the breakdown of the product. The time it takes for half of the product to break down ranges from 1 to 174 days
Glyphosate
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post

Now, a few questions if y'all don't mind..

I've tried several pesticides and am not 100% sold on any of the ones I've tried.(Organocide, Bonide orchard spray, malathion oil, parifine, and a few others) --What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it?...how about while the tree does not have fruit on it?...is there a difference?.. is there an all in 1 product I can rely on, or would I have to use a combination of two or more products?

Im sorry if Im taking the thread off topic..
Supermario

I'll send you an email over he weekend. If I don't send it by Saturday, drop me an email and let me know. I have a product called Premise. It is a systemic insecticide. I know it is used on Pecans and ornamentals. I need to look up the labeling and let you know. It is great stuff, very effective, once a year app and minimal danger to beneficials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
This is true and it's speculated to be the reason for the creation of Roundup Ready crops.
The creation of RoundUp ready crops was in response to the expiration of Monsanto's product. A farmer using such seed is required to sign a contract with Monsanto. He is only allowed to save a certain minuscule percentage of his crop this year to seed next, is required to purchase the remainder from Monsanto and can not sell, barter or give away any of the seed harvested from RoundUp ready crops. Farmers using such seed undergo vigorous annual inspections to ensure compliance and hefty fines are levied if the farmer is found to be out of compliance.
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:45 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by momoese View Post
As for the half life numbers:

Glyphosate
Publication Date: 5/94. The "Environmental Fate" section appears to be for direct spills and not herbicide application.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Thanks for the link on Roundup toxicity to human cell lines (not really the same as toxicity to humans). As Richard said earlier, it does appear to be linked to the other ingredients in the formulation. I did use the name roundup when I mentioned the low toxicity, I should have been more specific--the data I was thinking about is for the pure product, glyphosate for which the toxicity (to intact mammals) is lower than that of table salt.

Quote Mario: "I've tried several pesticides and am not 100% sold on any of the ones I've tried.(Organocide, Bonide orchard spray, malathion oil, parifine, and a few others) --What pesticides would you guys recommend for fruit trees with fruit on it?...how about while the tree does not have fruit on it?...is there a difference?.. is there an all in 1 product I can rely on, or would I have to use a combination of two or more products?"

What fruit and what problems?
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #36 (permalink)
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There are spiders all over my yard. Odd, small colorful ones with somewhat square bodies and tiny legs. They don't really seem to harm the fruit(except for damaging some flower clusters in my mango trees)...it's just a real pain to get around my yard while trying to avoid getting "caught" in their webs.

The bugs I know I need to watch out for are aphids, ants, mealy bugs, and caterpillars. I see caterpillars quite often, but simply pick them off, so that isn't a big issue. However, if there is a spray that will prevent butterflies from landing on my trees in the first place, that would be great.

Now, I have a few different trees, so I'm not sure if one spray works for all. Any help is appreciated..

-Citrus- my primary concern.. They have lots of leaf miner damage and have lost a few trees to greening(transmitted by insects).

-Mango trees - I use a combination Liquid Copper Fungicide and Sulfur to control anthracnose and powdery mildew. They don't have many bugs bothering them other than the above mentioned spiders. I've rarely sprayed them with anything to try and kill the spiders, but it hasn't worked.

-Sapodilla/zapote/nispero trees- both are crawling with ants! I blast them with some water every other day. Oh, and they had several of these insects on them:


Any idea what they are? Friend or Foe?

-Jaboticaba trees- trouble free

-Banana trees- trouble free

-Fig tree- occasional leaf rust...some tiny bugs stuck on the fruit themselves sometimes, but not often. Usually pretty trouble free.

-Atemoya tree- leaf damage.. something is eating some of the older leaves. I have yet to spot the culprit

-Avocado tree- trouble free

-Cacao- same as 'atemoya'

I also have a piper nigrum vine that has been relatively trouble free. Some leaf damage, but not much.

TX.. I have never used systemic insecticide since I don't think they are good for tropicals, but I would love to see the info. My fruit trees are listed above.

Last edited by supermario : 08-19-2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: more pics
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:26 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbl View Post
Thanks for the link on Roundup toxicity to human cell lines (not really the same as toxicity to humans).
Quote:
"This work clearly confirms that the adjuvants in Roundup formulations are not inert. Moreover, the proprietary mixtures available on the market could cause cell damage and even death around residual levels to be expected, especially in food and feed derived from R formulation-treated crops."
Your welcome. Human cells are human cells, death is death. There are no reliable long term independant human safety studies focusing on the Roundup formulation or Glyphosate for that matter, and I'd rather not wait 30 years to see the effects.

Quote:
Tests done on glyphosate to meet registration requirements have been associated with fraudulent practices.

Laboratory fraud first made headlines in 1983 when EPA publicly announced that a 1976 audit had discovered "serious deficiencies and improprieties" in studies conducted by Industrial Biotest Laboratories (IBT)." Problems included "countless deaths of rats and mice" and "routine falsification of data."91

IBT was one of the largest laboratories performing tests in support of pesticide registrations.91 About 30 tests on glyphosate and glyphosate-containing products were performed by IBT, including 11 of the 19 chronic toxicology studies.92 A compelling example of the poor quality of IBT data comes from an EPA toxicologist who wrote, "It is also somewhat difficult not to doubt the scientific integrity of a study when the IBT stated that it took specimens from the uteri (of male rabbits for histopathological examination."93 (Emphasis added.)

In 1991, EPA alleged that Craven Laboratories, a company that performed studies for 262 pesticide companies including Monsanto, had falsified tests.94 "Tricks" employed by Craven Labs included "falsifying laboratory notebook entries" and "manually manipulating scientific equipment to produce false reports."95 Roundup residue studies on plums, potatoes, grapes, and sugarbeets were among the tests in question.96

The following year, the owner of Craven Labs and three employees were indicted on 20 felony counts.97 The owner was sentenced to five years in prison and fined $50,000; Craven Labs was fined 15.5 million dollars, and ordered to pay 3.7 million dollars in restitution.95

Although the tests of glyphosate identified as fraudulent have been replaced, this fraud casts shadows on the entire pesticide registration process.
Think Agent Orange (Dioxin) and PCBs. Monsanto is not exactly who I'd trust with my health. Safe as table salt as you say is something they claimed before loosing two lawsuits in New York and France for false advertizing.

The History of PCBs - When Were Problems Detected
Agent Orange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Richard, from DOW Chemical:
Quote:
In order to determine the extent of environmental exposure to a chemical, it is necessary to evaluate that chemical’s environmental fate. While the amount and frequency of a chemical’s release, as well as the environmental medium — air, water, or soil — into which it’s released are important considerations, environmental fate is determined by what happens after the chemical has been released into the environment.
As I've said, the numbers you gave are not consistent with other suggested application half life data that's readily available. It pretty much depends on your location and soil type. Here is some info showing how wide spread the numbers can be.

Quote:
Note: Numbers, as well as the length of the columns, give the half-life, in days, of glyphosate in soil. Half-life is the length of time required for half the applied glyphosate to break down or move out of the test site.

Source: U.S. EPA. Environmental Fate and Effects Division. 1993. Pesticide environmental fate one line summary; Glyphosate. Washington, D.C., May 6.

Glyphosate's persistence in soil varies widely, but its half-life in agricultural soil can be over 4 months.

Persistence and Movement in Soil
Glyphosate's persistence in soil varies widely, so giving a simple answer to the question "How long does glyphosate persist in soil?" is not possible. Half-lives (the time required for half of the amount of glyphosate applied to break down or move away) as low as 3 days (in Texas) and as long as 141 days (in Iowa) have been measured by glyphosate's manufacturer.119 (See Figure 6.) Initial degradation (breakdown) is faster than the subsequent degradation of what remains.120 Long persistence has been measured in the following studies: 55 days on an Oregon Coast Range forestry site121: 249 days on Finnish agricultural soils122; between 259 and 296 days on eight Finnish forestry sites120; 335 days on an Ontario (Canada) forestry site123; 360 days on 3 British Columbia forestry sites124; and, from 1 to 3 years on eleven Swedish forestry sites.125 EPA's Ecological Effect's Branch wrote, "In summary, this herbicide is extremely persistent under typical application conditions. "126

Glyphosate is thought to be "tightly complexed [bound] by most soils"127 and therefore "in most soils, glyphosate is essentially immobile."127 This means that the glyphosate will be unlikely to contaminate water or soil away from the application site. However, this binding to soil is "reversible." For example, one study found that glyphosate bound readily to four different soils. However, desorption, when glyphosate unbinds from soil particles, also occurred readily. In one soil, 80 percent of the added glyphosate desorbed in a two hour period. The study concluded that "this herbicide can be extensively mobile in the soil ...." 123
Glyphosate Factsheet (part 1 of 2) Caroline Cox / Journal of Pesticide Reform v.108, n.3 Fall98 rev.Oct00


TX_Crinum, thank you for clarifying was I was attempting to say to Richard.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:12 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by supermario View Post
There are spiders all over my yard. Odd, small colorful ones with somewhat square bodies and tiny legs. They don't really seem to harm the fruit(except for damaging some flower clusters in my mango trees)...it's just a real pain to get around my yard while trying to avoid getting "caught" in their webs.

The bugs I know I need to watch out for are aphids, ants, mealy bugs, and caterpillars. I see caterpillars quite often, but simply pick them off, so that isn't a big issue. However, if there is a spray that will prevent butterflies from landing on my trees in the first place, that would be great.

Now, I have a few different trees, so I'm not sure if one spray works for all. Any help is appreciated..

-Citrus- my primary concern.. They have lots of leaf miner damage and have lost a few trees to greening(transmitted by insects).

-Mango trees - I use a combination Liquid Copper Fungicide and Sulfur to control anthracnose and powdery mildew. They don't have many bugs bothering them other than the above mentioned spiders. I've rarely sprayed them with anything to try and kill the spiders, but it hasn't worked.

-Sapodilla/zapote/nispero trees- both are crawling with ants! I blast them with some water every other day. Oh, and they had several of these insects on them:


Any idea what they are? Friend or Foe?

-Jaboticaba trees- trouble free

-Banana trees- trouble free

-Fig tree- occasional leaf rust...some tiny bugs stuck on the fruit themselves sometimes, but not often. Usually pretty trouble free.

-Atemoya tree- leaf damage.. something is eating some of the older leaves. I have yet to spot the culprit

-Avocado tree- trouble free

-Cacao- same as 'atemoya'

I also have a piper nigrum vine that has been relatively trouble free. Some leaf damage, but not much.

TX.. I have never used systemic insecticide since I don't think they are good for tropicals, but I would love to see the info. My fruit trees are listed above.
Mario, The picture you have there is a good guy--that is an assasin bug. The larval forms can be hard to distinguish from leaf-footed bugs (a type of stink bug)--you have to look close at the back legs, but most larval stink bugs hang out in groups while the assasin larvae are solitary. Spiders are good guys too--they all kill other bugs, but they can be annoying. As for the citrus leaf miners, nothing works very well, but Spinosad applied with a little oil works better that anything else I have tried. Horticultural oil sprayed on new growth will repel the adult moth from laying eggs--they don't like oily surfaces, but rain will wash it off. Like you I do not like systemics on fruit.

Momoese--the point I was making about cell culture toxicity is that in an intact organism, there are many defensive processes not available to cells--uptake, elimination, detoxification for example. If cell culture toxicity were a viable substitute for animal toxicity test, it would make a lot of people happy--including me. If you have information on what ingredients in Roundup are responsible for the toxicity I would be interested.

Last edited by sbl : 08-19-2009 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:52 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

SBL, it may not be what ingredients are individually responsible for the toxicity, likely the combination of ingredients that create the problem. Mostly the surfactants such as polyoxyethyleneamines (POEA) (which by themselves are said to be more toxic than Glyphosate) are mentioned along with a few other ingrediants. The exact ingrediants are not known.

Quote:
The ingredients responsible for the increased potency of Roundup formulations seen in this study – as compared to purified glyphosate – remain unknown. The chemical formulas of herbicide additives are generally protected as trade secrets, and the researchers did not try to chemically identify them. Therefore, their effects cannot be easily investigated and they remain undetected in the environment.
Acording to UC Berkeley, In California, glyphosate is the third most commonly-reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. I have yet to find the data for this but I'm still looking.

Then there is this.
Quote:
New Study Links World's Biggest Selling Pesticides to Cancer
Swedish Study Finds Exposure to Glyphosate and MCPA Increases
Risk for Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma
7-Misc: Swedish study shows links between glyphosate and cancer

It's really bad for amphibians. There is plenty of data on that.
http://www.pitt.edu/news2009/Roundup.pdf


The only actual human tests that I know of were conducted in Japan and resulted in deaths and suicides from direct ingestion of the product. How they got people to drink it is beyond me.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:17 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: Oil and Water.(Conventional vs. Organic)

Again, thanks for the links. The paper on the toxicity to amphibians is a good paper and clearly shows the formulations containing POEA are highly toxic to amphibians.

The study suggesting links with Lymphoma certainly raise concerns and should remind all of us that there are many factors to consider before we call a pesticide "safe". No acute toxicity, does not mean there are not long term effects, and the so called "inert ingredients" are not always inert!

It is not clear if the effects are comming from glyphosate or from the "inert ingredients", but I will certainly handle it more carefully.
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