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Banana Plant Soil, Additives, and Fertilizer This forum is an area where you may discuss the soil to grow banana plants in, as well as soil additives such as teas, composts, manures, fertilizers and related topics.


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Old 07-25-2017, 04:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
If growing my nanas in pots, should I complement my banana fuel with some Mg and Ca?
I keep reading articles that bananas consume a lot of Ca and also some Mg...
No, there's already enough in there. Check the label.
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:09 PM   #42 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
If growing my nanas in pots, should I complement my banana fuel with some Mg and Ca?
I keep reading articles that bananas consume a lot of Ca and also some Mg...
What Richard said applies to the Fruit Fuel manufactured by the Grow More company.
Other companies claim to have banana fertilizers (spikes, pelleted) that are not as well balanced than the Fruit Fuel.
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Old 07-26-2017, 05:53 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
No, there's already enough in there. Check the label.
Thanks for replying, no need to be rude though... I've read the lablel, says 0.3% Ca och 0,15% Mg.

According to this article (and others) frpm Haifa group the uptake by whole plants is (kg/ha):
N: 198 - 339
P2O5: 68 - 114
K2O:734 - 1268
CaO: 165 - 273
MgO: 92 - 155


Their suggestion for fertilization is (kg/ha):

N = 190 (22%)
P2O5 = 91 (10%)
K2O = 454 (52%)
CaO = 67 (8%)
MgO = 76 (9%)

8% and 9% are pretty far from 0,3% and 0,15%... that's why I'm asking. Maybe I'm missing something (this is not at all my expertise). If so, please explain (in a frieldy tone please).

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy banana View Post
What Richard said applies to the Fruit Fuel manufactured by the Grow More company.
Other companies claim to have banana fertilizers (spikes, pelleted) that are not as well balanced than the Fruit Fuel.
I'm using Fruit Fuel, bought from Richard a few years back. So my question is releated to Fruit fuel.
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:35 PM   #44 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
Thanks for replying, no need to be rude though... I've read the lablel, says 0.3% Ca och 0,15% Mg.

According to this article (and others) frpm Haifa group the uptake by whole plants is (kg/ha):
N: 198 - 339
P2O5: 68 - 114
K2O:734 - 1268
CaO: 165 - 273
MgO: 92 - 155


Their suggestion for fertilization is (kg/ha):

N = 190 (22%)
P2O5 = 91 (10%)
K2O = 454 (52%)
CaO = 67 (8%)
MgO = 76 (9%)

8% and 9% are pretty far from 0,3% and 0,15%... that's why I'm asking. Maybe I'm missing something (this is not at all my expertise). If so, please explain (in a frieldy tone please).



I'm using Fruit Fuel, bought from Richard a few years back. So my question is releated to Fruit fuel.
Thank you for being a loyal Fruit Fuel user.
And thank you for the clarification as Banana Fuel (this what you were asking in your post #40) manufactured by a different company and Fruit Fuel manufactured by "Grow More" are two different products.

Do you have a concern with the Fruit Fuel? Are your plants not performing well?
This is what to look for:
Magnesium is contained in Chlorophyll and is vital to the green shade of a plant and its capacity to produce nourishment from sunlight. It is needed for sugar development, but it is also needed for the uptake of other nutrient, especially phosphorus. A lack of magnesium would result in mottled yellowing leaves, they may turn dark and die.
It is my understanding that too much magnesium does not directly affect plant production, but it can cause deficiencies in other nutrients like calcium or potassium causing limited fruit production or poor root development.
Calcium is needed for new root development and new suckers. It also assembles cell walls. An insufficiency of calcium can be seen if new leaves emerge deformed or start to shrivel at their tips.

Forgive me, I am just reading your link on my lunch break on a limited sized phone screen, but Table 25 shows Calcium percentage range 0.4% to 1.0%,
Magnesium percentage rate 0.2% to 0.36%. Both are close to the 0.3% Calcium and 0.15% Magnesium in the Fruit Fuel.
I have seen the Haifa studies before and they are referring to field grown commercial banana plantations under (almost) ideal growing conditions and not to growing "a" plant in a pot or plants I grow as a hobby gardener in a marginal climate.

Having said that, I highly recommend any gardener to do a soil analysis to take the guess work out of the game.
If you look at Table 23 of your link, it shows some significant differences in soil analysis between the Caribbean, Costa Rica, Martinique and Australia.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:30 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
Thanks for replying, no need to be rude though...
No intention of being rude. Your statement implied that neither were present in Fruit Fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
According to this article
They are discussing initial soil ppm over a one year period using granular minerals. Their calculations also include leaching of minerals by rainfall in tropical banana growing regions.

Fruit Fuel is a water-soluble concentrate designed to feed the roots of plants grown in true soils on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. The quantities of fertilizer to achieve the same results is therefore different than granular minerals.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:56 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy banana View Post
Do you have a concern with the Fruit Fuel? Are your plants not performing well?
Having some problems with some of my bananas yes. Trying to eliminate some causes... My problems should be discussed in another thread and not contamination this one though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
No intention of being rude. Your statement implied that neither were present in Fruit Fuel.
A misunderstanding from my side, sorry. Probably my slumbering (since high school) english ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Fruit Fuel is a water-soluble concentrate designed to feed the roots of plants grown in true soils on a monthly or bi-monthly basis. The quantities of fertilizer to achieve the same results is therefore different than granular minerals.
Great answer! Thank you. Then I don't have to worry about Ca and Mg.
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Old 07-28-2017, 10:56 AM   #47 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkenix View Post
If growing my nanas in pots, should I complement my banana fuel with some Mg and Ca?
I keep reading articles that bananas consume a lot of Ca and also some Mg...
According to the label that Richard posted, you should "complement" with both Ca and S because 0.30% Ca and 0.16% S are grossly insufficient.

According to http://www.aensiweb.com/old/jasr/jasr/2006/470-476.pdf, S content should be 20% that of N, which for banana fuel would translate to 0.2*16 = 3.2%.

According to http://m.haifa-group.com/files/Guides/Banana.pdf, Ca content should be about 33% that of N which would translate to 0.33*16 = 5.3%.

For sulfur, you can add magnesium sulfate but you should not add calcium salts because it will form a precipitate of relatively insoluble calcium sulfate and calcium phosphate. Better to alternate fertilization with a calcium nitrate solution because then, at least, the precipitate will form within the soil near the plant roots.
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Old 07-29-2017, 09:23 AM   #48 (permalink)
 
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Pinwheel Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Fruit Fuel is a water-soluble concentrate designed to feed the roots of plants grown in true soils on a monthly or bi-monthly basis..
According to the book, Agricultural Chemistry (MirPublishers, Moscow), ionic phosphates are immobile in soil, especially clay soil, and, when applied to the soil surface, remain near the surface until the soil is tilled under.

However, urea phosphate may penetrate soil because it is covalently bonded. To my knowledge, the only commercial fertilizer that contains urea phosphate as its only source of phosphorus is Peters Excel® 15-5-15 Cal-Mag Special. See

http://cdn.greenhousemegastore.com/d.../msds-1515.pdf

Although made for container plants, I have outstanding results on ground plantings using this product.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Mr. Aruzinsky (whose posts I ignore) should take up his issues with Dr. Ruehr.

Fruit Gardener article on Soil Nutrients and Fruit Quality
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:15 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Just an update on using the fuel. Good product! Banana plants have started looking better and bigger.

I put some on some potted bananas, and they perked up. I even tried some on a few potted dragon fruit and they went nuts! Better than the cactus food I was using. One dragon fruit stem I had just rooted, about one foot in length shot up to 8 feet in 3 months in the small pot and is a monster with mutliple stems. Don't know of it was the banana fuel but I am thinking so. It is a great product.

I will order more in the future.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:06 AM   #51 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripsaw View Post
Just an update on using the fuel. Good product! Banana plants have started looking better and bigger.

I put some on some potted bananas, and they perked up. I even tried some on a few potted dragon fruit and they went nuts! Better than the cactus food I was using. One dragon fruit stem I had just rooted, about one foot in length shot up to 8 feet in 3 months in the small pot and is a monster with mutliple stems. Don't know of it was the banana fuel but I am thinking so. It is a great product.

I will order more in the future.
That is good to hear that you have such success with the Fruit Fuel. I too use it not just for my banana plants but also on my pineapple and Dragon fruit plants. First flowers and fruits ever this year on my Dragon Fruit.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:36 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

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That is good to hear that you have such success with the Fruit Fuel. I too use it not just for my banana plants but also on my pineapple and Dragon fruit plants. First flowers and fruits ever this year on my Dragon Fruit.
Congrats on the dragon fruit. Beautiful flowers, but short lived. The fruit is best and sweetest if ripened on the plant. Enjoy!

My first dragon fruited within a few months and it was in a pot. That was a few years ago. I have a few stems that fell off in the shrubs and a few others in pots. Preparing for a fall transplant to an area where I have cleared and removed a large tree. Same with new bananas.

There is a farm stand on Pine Island where the dragons are climbing high into the oak trees and they harvest quite a few fruits from them. One of my favorite fruits to grow.

The only problems I have had are the squirrels, raccoons, and opossums go after the mangoes and the dragon fruit so I have to be quick when they are ripe. Also the mangrove rats show up once in a while. All try to have parties at night.
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:07 AM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Mr. Aruzinsky (whose posts I ignore) should take up his issues with Dr. Ruehr.

Fruit Gardener article on Soil Nutrients and Fruit Quality
I don't care about Dr. Ruehr. It is immoral to resolve objective issues by taking a opinion poll. The objective issue is the form of P in fertilizer solution that is applied to the top of the soil and not the P already at the root zone. It is a stupid mistake to formulate soluble fertilizers for application to soil surfaces using conventional P compounds because conventional P compounds remain near the soil surface until tilled under.

Here is more literature about the mobility of phosphorus compounds within the soil:

Use of Phosphorous Fertilizers in Pressurized | Maher Saleh - Academia.edu

Note:

"Using conventional P sources in sprinkler systems, P did not penetrate more than 4 to 6 cm from the surface of a sandy loam soil (Lauer, 1988). With drip systems and such P sources, movement was limited to a few cm vertically – and even less laterally – from the emitter point (Ryan et al., 1988a; O’Neill et al., 1979;Bar Yosef and Sheikloslami, 1976). Again, mobility increased with lighter texture and the amount of P applied. However, substantial increases in mobility were recorded with less conventional P fertilizers. Thus, it is of interest to consider properties of various fertilizers in relation to precipitation /mobility. ...

Urea Phosphate

The study of Ryan et al. (1988a) showed higher water-soluble and NaHCO3
–soluble P after addition of acid fertilizers such as urea-phosphate (UP) compared toTSP, but noted the greater lateral and depth-wise movement of P within a heavy clay soil than with H3PO4 or conventional materials. Other studies with up showed much greater mobility in the soil than TSP and, as a consequence, greater fertilizing efficiency for tomato (Mikkelsen and Jarrell, 1987) and lettuce (Chase, 1985). In the latter case, P movement downwards was 12 cm and 10 cm laterally – all encompassing the crop root zone"
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:26 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Anke,
Just wanted to say I am so happy with the fertilizer. Not only used it on the Banana plants but also on my tomatoes and Peppers. They are going nuts.

Thanks,
Craig
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:58 PM   #55 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

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Anke,
Just wanted to say I am so happy with the fertilizer. Not only used it on the Banana plants but also on my tomatoes and Peppers. They are going nuts.

Thanks,
Craig
Thank you for the great feedback.
Feedback like this from actual users of the Fruit Fuel mean a lot more than hypothetical studies.
Keep up the good work.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:25 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Joy Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by aruzinsky View Post
I don't care about Dr. Ruehr. It is immoral to resolve objective issues by taking a opinion poll. The objective issue is the form of P in fertilizer solution that is applied to the top of the soil and not the P already at the root zone. It is a stupid mistake to formulate soluble fertilizers for application to soil surfaces using conventional P compounds because conventional P compounds remain near the soil surface until tilled under.

Here is more literature about the mobility of phosphorus compounds within the soil:

Use of Phosphorous Fertilizers in Pressurized | Maher Saleh - Academia.edu

Note:

"Using conventional P sources in sprinkler systems, P did not penetrate more than 4 to 6 cm from the surface of a sandy loam soil (Lauer, 1988). With drip systems and such P sources, movement was limited to a few cm vertically – and even less laterally – from the emitter point (Ryan et al., 1988a; O’Neill et al., 1979;Bar Yosef and Sheikloslami, 1976). Again, mobility increased with lighter texture and the amount of P applied. However, substantial increases in mobility were recorded with less conventional P fertilizers. Thus, it is of interest to consider properties of various fertilizers in relation to precipitation /mobility. ...

Urea Phosphate

The study of Ryan et al. (1988a) showed higher water-soluble and NaHCO3
–soluble P after addition of acid fertilizers such as urea-phosphate (UP) compared toTSP, but noted the greater lateral and depth-wise movement of P within a heavy clay soil than with H3PO4 or conventional materials. Other studies with up showed much greater mobility in the soil than TSP and, as a consequence, greater fertilizing efficiency for tomato (Mikkelsen and Jarrell, 1987) and lettuce (Chase, 1985). In the latter case, P movement downwards was 12 cm and 10 cm laterally – all encompassing the crop root zone"
Calm down, seems like every-once-in-awhile you go on a tirade. Life is too short to get so upset.
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Old 09-20-2017, 01:11 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Mr. Aruzinsky:
You have referenced a non-peer-reviewed article from an M.A. student in Egypt studying with a professor in Syria. Certainly the penetration of phosphates is an issue in alkaline soils but you are missing the point when it comes to fruiting plants. A minimal amount of available phosphate is necessary in proportion to potash. As far as plant metabolisms are concerned, the availability of Nitrogen to Potash should be 2 to 3. This is why Fruit Fuel is formulated in NPK ratios of 2:1:3 with pH balances suited to most soils. There are many peer-reviewed papers supporting this formulation -- in fact I contacted several of the authors when I designed this formula. Check the minor- and micro-nutrients in the Guaranteed Analysis -- you'll see what I'm talking about.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:07 AM   #58 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Mr. Aruzinsky:
You have referenced a non-peer-reviewed article from an M.A. student in Egypt studying with a professor in Syria.
Regardless, the immobility of conventional phosphates in soil has been alleged by many authors.

Quote:
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Certainly the penetration of phosphates is an issue in alkaline soils but you are missing the point when it comes to fruiting plants.
No, I am not missing the point because I never took issue with your 2:1:3 formulation. You are missing the point because 2:1:3 is not the ratio in the soil at the root zone because the phosphates in your fertilizer stay near the surface of the soil. It's a simple concept. For example, it would be relevant for you to reference a paper in a peer reviewed journal that said that conventional phosphates were mobile in non-alkaline clay soils. Otherwise, I suggest that you should stop pontificating on irrelevancies.

Incidentally, to whomever else it may concern, the immobility of phosphates in Richard's fertilizer has an easy workaround. Pour the solution into the planting hole before planting.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:14 AM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Fruit Fuel - Banana Fuel UPDATE

Quote:
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Calm down, seems like every-once-in-awhile you go on a tirade. Life is too short to get so upset.
That looks like an emotional outburst to me. At least, my tirades are informative.

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