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Old 10-10-2010, 03:11 PM   #41 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

Where from God's Green Earth are you getting your figures? Do you know more than Jim Faust, Paul Fisher and Eric Runkle put together?

Do you have any idea what PAR is, or DLI? Why would banana plants need twice the amount of light provided by the sun? How do they manage to survive in the wild?

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Old 10-10-2010, 05:58 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Mike,

I am reporting on what is being done commercially. Fruiting banana cultivars do not occur in the wild. But for comparison, examine the Watts per 4 sq. meters of solar radiation on the earth's surface in the plant spectrum at 0 to 10 degrees latitude in the summer.
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:35 PM   #43 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

I would guess about 156-280 watts per second on a sunny day when clouds are not blocking any radiation. This is at the equator, where banana trees grow well. Yet you claim you need 2,000W per plant. Do you work for an electric company?

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Old 10-11-2010, 05:52 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Quote:
Originally Posted by wordwiz View Post
I would guess about 156-280 watts per second on a sunny day when clouds are not blocking any radiation. This is at the equator, where banana trees grow well.
When doing co-registration for remote sensing with EOS sensors, we obtain on average about 300 Watts/sq. meter for the given scenario. Using a measure of 4 sq. meters per plant brings the total to 1200W. The bulbs are at 1 meter from the plants and at peak output (factory fresh) are 2000W, but since energy drops off with distance we get about 1200W incident on the plants. Further, full power is only used part-time during 3 seasons and nearly full-time in the winter. Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.

Growth is not enough. Farmers are trying to fruit these plants in a timely fashion -- 12 months or less brings an acceptable profit margin. The energy inputs used for poinsettias in a greenhouse, tomatoes in tunnels, cucurbitoids in warehouses, and fruiting bananas in orchid shelters are all different. Here in San Diego county, we don't bother with assisted lighting for poinsettias -- in fact we have the opposite problem so we use growth regulators.
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Old 10-11-2010, 08:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

A 2000 watt grow light? Got a link to it? And let's see ---- 2000 watts times 8 hours per day is 16,000 watts per day. During winter, 3 months, that amounts to about $144 per plant, if you are paying only 10 per kW hour. Add in the rest of the year and you are over $200 to grow a plant, not including labor or other expenses.

Even in Cincy, in the middle of winter, it's not hard to find bananas for about 40/lb. So if the wholesale price from the grower is 20/lb. that means you need only about 1,000 pounds per plant to break even.

So what variety of banana are you growing and what is your average harvest per tree?

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Old 10-11-2010, 09:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Keep this is going it is very interesting to read. thanks guys for all your input...
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Old 10-11-2010, 09:17 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Quote:
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A 2000 watt grow light? Got a link to it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
The bulbs are at 1 meter from the plants ...
i.e., there are multiple bulbs per plant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wordwiz View Post
... During winter, 3 months, that amounts to about $144 per plant ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wordwiz View Post
So what variety of banana are you growing and what is your average harvest per tree?
These clients are in Riverside and San Bernardino counties (CA). They are growing dwarf varieties for local asian markets. My understanding is that the 1st two hands per bunch covers the production cost and the remainder is profit. Only 1/5 to 1/10 of their greenhouses are devoted to Bananas.
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Old 10-12-2010, 04:04 PM   #48 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Hmmmmmmm,

$100 per hand. That's what, $4-5 or more per banana?

Mike
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:52 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

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Hmmmmmmm,

$100 per hand. That's what, $4-5 or more per banana?

Mike
Nope.

Quote:
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Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both.
For example, ask harveyc what he pays for water.
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Old 10-12-2010, 06:26 PM   #50 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

A commercial running these days urges some: if you find you are digging yourself into a hole, quit digging. I suggest you consider this advice.

You try to say that producers who spend $200 on electricity can pay for the entire electrical cost with two hands of fruit. Yet, most dwarf banana plants, at least from what I read, produce 14-16 fruits per hand, I was willing to give you 20. Your post, elucidating everyone on paying for the costs:
[quote=Richard;144047]Nope./QUOTE]

But you insist on keeping on shoveling. I never brought other costs into the equation but you felt the need to defend your own post I never asked about:

Quote:
Most agricultural sites of this type have free (deeded) water, power (e.g., geothermal), or both. For example, ask harveyc what he pays for water.
And for the record, geothermal is not free. Period. Considerably less expensive after installation - yes. Free - TANSTAAFL! Then you claim you need TWICE the light intensity provided at the equator. PPLLeeaassee!

From the git-go, you have tried to hijack this thread and act like you are an expert. I'm not, and have never claimed to be. But I have studied lighting and growing in a GH extensively, as well as how much light intensity plants needs for optimal growth.

Put your digging tool on sale on e-bay and advertise as one that has shoveled tons of crap is just a couple of weeks!

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Old 10-12-2010, 07:41 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Mike,

If you are trying to say that raising bananas indoors for fruit does not make economic sense for the average citizen, then I agree 100%.

Of course there are people who are into extremes, such as the hilarious tales chronicled in this book: The 64 Dollar Tomato by W. Alexander.

There are also people who have both the desire and the means to grow fruiting tropical plants indoors and obtain production-grade harvests. I have several of them for customers. For example, there is a woman who owns an estate in the northeastern U.S. Among other things, she has two identical size wings on her home: the one on the north houses an Olympic size pool, the one on the south is a terrarium. Inside, she raises citrus, papayas, bananas, grenadilla, etc.

Sixty years ago, both the state and private real estate holders in California did not think much of properties with bubbling mudholes, esp. in arid locations. The properties were either "given" to native Americans, or sold off to "gullible" Asian immigrants. It is true that power companies will not pay much for mining rights to harvest power from geothermal wells. However, this does not stop a person from building a micro-power plant with their own funds or a loan -- then powering their own enterprise, or simply leasing the site and power for a Walmart distribution center in the desert.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:02 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

All that you say in your last post may be well and true, but that's NOT what this thread was about. I don't give a flying rat's behind what some lunatic in La-La land will do to get a ripe banana - I am concerned about what the average aficionado of ripe, home-grown banana growers will need to know. Posting BS like needing 2,000 watts of light per plant does a huge disservice, irregardless if you know fools in indulge in wasting money. I'm growing a DC under 125 watts of LED light, in a DWC hydro setup and it is doing fantastic. Will it flower and produce 40 pounds of bananas? I don't have a crystal ball. But I will let you know and then you can tell your baffoon clients they are wasting resources (if it turns out for my good).

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Old 10-12-2010, 09:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Mike,

There are many people here who for many years have attempted to grow bananas for fruit wholly indoors. If you were to start a thread on this topic you might get some helpful responses.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:30 PM   #54 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

{Smacking head against wall}

WTH do you think this thread started out about?

I'll refrain from obvious personal insults that are due, but again will ask that you ditch your shovel and quit digging a deeper hole.

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Old 10-12-2010, 09:45 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Mike,

It was 800W output in the plant spectrum that I recommended for your super dwarf Cavendish, not 2kW.

Given the title of this thread, I'm not sure it is going to reach the audience you have in mind.

No need to layoff the personal insults now, you've already contributed many!
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:46 PM   #56 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

My DC has been adding a leaf per week. It is getting light from only a 125 watt LED. I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?

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Old 10-18-2010, 10:57 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Richard,

My DC has been adding a leaf per week. It is getting light from only a 125 watt LED. I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?

Mike
Congratulations! I look forward to reading about the fruits of your labors.
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:41 PM   #58 (permalink)
 
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Congratulations! I look forward to reading about the fruits of your labors.
I look forward to eating the fruits!

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Old 10-19-2010, 04:22 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I suppose, according to you, that if I was to increase the light six-fold, to 800 watts, I should get six new leaves per week?
The relationship is non-linear and has more to do with fruit production than leaf growth. There are accrued energy levels to be obtained over time for maturation, etc.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:40 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

You continue to ignore the part DLI (the amount of photons a plant uses in photosynthesis) means. Experts, which do not include me, have determined the optimal mols per day needed per plant, though Growing Degree Days (heat) also play an important part. Yes, you may get ten more pounds per plant using 800 watts per hour for 14 hours a day than I will using 125 watts (or 400 if I choose to use MH/HPS) but at what price?

There's an easy way to solve this question. You grow a DC under your choice of 800 watt HID lights , I'll grow mine under the 125-watt LED. After a year of growing, we can compare harvested weight. If you harvest six times the salable nanas in weight as I do, then I will concede that Tim Taylor was right and the more power the better.

I don't mind if I lose - it means I will have learned something. But at the same time, I'm not worried about trying walking the walk after talking the talk. Are you?

Mike
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