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Old 09-24-2010, 08:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

I just bought a Sunblaze 4' 4 bulb fluorescent light. There were a bunch of used Metal Halide and HPS systems for sale on Craigslist that weren't much more than this Sunblaze. However, I went with the fluorescent lights for lower operating cost. Plus I wasn't looking to get maximum growth or anything from my bananas; just keeping them alive until spring arrives (I don't have cool dark place to overwinter them).

The coverage area is a bit smaller than I expected so I might end up buying another Sunblaze 4 ft 4 bulb system.
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Old 09-24-2010, 09:38 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Quote:
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I don't expect you to jump on my bandwagon, given that you are pedaling other lights but please, don't try to presume the info I have posted is not proven.
I'm not selling any lights. I just do the physics as part of my consulting service.
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Old 09-25-2010, 12:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

People tend to over think lighting. You only need to make sure the light is at the right intensity and the proper wavelength. Chlorophyll needs light around 450nm and 650nm. Most "daylight/6500K" bulbs should cover both. The whole "red vs blue" is more important when you are dealing with flowering plants such as marijuana. People growing pot (or "basil") often use HPS because it's heavy on the red light which encourages blooming. For bananas, just a bulb that is full spectrum.

Bananas grow great under fluorescents (I've used NO, VHO, T5, PC). One of my favorite bulbs for both plants and coral is a 6500K 400 watt Iwasaki MH.

Here's a comparison of the spectrum of an Iwasaki vs the Sun. I haven't seen a bulb that replicates sunlight better than an Iwasaki.

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Old 09-25-2010, 12:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

If your lighting covers these peaks (pic below), you're set for bananas. Then you just need to worry about intensity. T5's are so great because they have great reflectors. I don't believe the emit more light/watt than any other fluorescent bulb. A good reflector can make a HUGE difference. People familiar to reef lighting will know that 250watt DE MH can produce more PAR than a 400watt SE MH simply because of the reflector. The Double-end (DE) bulb doesn't put out more light/watt, it simply has a better reflector.

The problem with HID (MH/HPS) lighting for plants is you need to mount the bulbs high with a good reflector in order to cover a large area. If the plants get too close to the bulb, they will burn. Fluorescents, on the other hand, can be mounted closer the the foliage. Many plants will come into contact with the bulb with no problem.

LED's are great, but getting enough light would be difficult and expensive.

The choice really comes down to how many plants you need to cover, the plant size, and the space available.

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Old 09-25-2010, 05:19 PM   #25 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

T5's do put out more then any other flouresent bulbs on the market. They also last longer then VHO's-PC's. Where all the other bulbs drop off really quick in 9months,T5's are good on the average for 12months. I know that first hand as my t5's are past due over 12 months and all my corals,GBTA are still doing great. New bulbs in the mail. ATI is the best brand T5 out there hands down!
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Old 09-25-2010, 05:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Velutina,

I don't disagree with anything you say but I want to clarify the way I use lights. For seedlings, I use CFL almost exclusively, though if I need a bit more room I turn on my shop lights. Works great, produces stocky plants. For plants I want to grow to maturity (read: harvest fruit from) my bulb of choice is MH. I base the height it needs to be not on the area I want to cover but the lux it provides to the plants. The goal is about 30,000. I'm finding a 600-watt MH does a fine job covering a 3.5x4' area with Mylar-lined walls. I probably can squeeze out a 4x5' area if I really need to.

I use the 30,000 lux figure based on studies done by lots of people concerned with growing plants in a Green House. They concluded plants need a certain amount of "mols" of lighting per day (Daily Light Integral) to be productive. For tomatoes, that figure is 22 mols/day. 30,000 lux (2788 Foot Candles) times .000546 gives me the mols of PAR light per hour (1.522). Running the light for 15 hours a day will provide 22.83 mols per day.

Other types of light use a different instead of .000546. For instance, sunlight is quite high: .000718, HPS is a lowly .000543 and a cool white fluro checks in at .000524 (these are for the "average" type bulb - each bulb may have a slightly different factor based on the spectrum). But, if I did my math correctly, an LED blows all these lights away, having a conversion value of .0036. Of course, they produce far less lux or Foot Candles.

For my DC banana, it's under a 125-watt LED. I know it can pretty much cover the plant canopy, at least until the plant is nearly mature. And it is delivering about 23 mols per day!

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Old 09-25-2010, 06:33 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Efficiency or Performance?

When you look at Lumens per watt, T5s are about the same as any other fluorescent bulb. In fact, many Metal Halides put out more lumens per watt than HO T5s. Generally, most fluorescents (T5, T8 etc) using electronic ballasts are between 90-100 lumens per watt. High-Output systems might be in the 70s. You can easily find data stating T5's are more efficient, but they usually leave out that the T8 is running on a magnetic ballast, while the T5 is using an electronic ballast.

Lumens/watt is worthless in determining the correct bulb for your plants or coral. It's Photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) that is important. T5's have such a high PAR because of the superior reflector and high-output ballasts.




These numbers are the standards set by the Dept. of Energy. Most bulbs exceed these standards by 5-10 lm/W.

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Old 09-25-2010, 07:34 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

When I evaluate plant bulbs, there are 3 manufacturers' graphs I value:
  1. Output power spectrum. This is a graph of Watts or typically log(Watts) vs. nanometers. I ignore graphs that do not have units in the vertical range and do not extend through the infrared.
  2. Output power spectral density. This is variance of power vs. nanometers. It shows you deviations in output under operating conditions.
  3. Total power vs. operational time. This shows you when and how the output decays.

In the retail world, the same bulb can found packaged by (a) one distributor under several different brand names targeted at different life-style groups, and (b) packaged by different distributors under different brand names, and (c) packaged very generically by a packing house for a national chain.

Retail stores only carry what the distributors will provide. This is unfortunate, because some manufacturers have 5 to 10 different full-spectrum bulbs that are tuned to specific agricultural applications. So for example, if I am growing cucurbits (e.g., melons, squash) I want #4 but for another crop I want #7. By the way, Have you noticed that melons in the supermarkets rarely have any dirt specks? Growing this crop in shelters and buildings is now big business.

Factories sell the bulbs by the shipping container load, packed in large boxes with no sleeves -- just mineral dust to keep the bulbs from chaffing. Some of the manufacturers only stamp the product number into the metal end-piece at the cathode or anode, and let the distributor print whatever they want on the bulb itself. If you own a plant light bulb, check out the etched or stamped part number on the end. You can look these up with Google and determine who the manufacturer is.
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Old 09-27-2010, 08:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

I tend to evaluate lights in the real world, not what the claims are. I can tell the difference between a 6500K, 5000K and 4300K bulb. I can take lux measurements 30" from the bulb. I can tell you if a bulb lasts for one year or three years. More importantly, I can say how tomatoes (as well as some other plants) do under different types of bulbs

The latter is the most important aspect, at least to me. A bulb providing 140 lumens per watt but not getting good fruit set is not as appealing, at least to me, is not as significant as a bulb that emits 105 lumens per watt but promotes a great fruit set.

This is where pot growers really shine. They know, probably via others' experience, how much lux or foot candles and what spectrum they need for each stage of growth. By sheer numbers, they have tried almost every type of light, amount of wattage, spectrum, grow room temp - the entire gamut.

But the same is not true for those of us trying to grow bananas, tomatoes, hot peppers, basil, etc. A good pot grower can tell you how many Growing Degree Days it should take to produce a bud given a Daily Light Integral of X mols that is worth selling; most banana growers do not have a clue what a Growing Degree Day or Daily Light Integral are.

Not that I'm knocking people, only stating what I've seen. I know a guy who has a decent amount of respect in several veggie growing forums, that constantly posits that one needs 20-60 watts of lighting per square foot to grow plants to maturity. His advice is not wrong, but it's like someone driving across the US, getting lost, ans stopping to ask where you are - only to be told they are in the Mid-West! A pot grower would tell the visitor they are at 5th and Vine in Cincinnati, OH.

But I digress - I would rather read what has worked for individuals rather than "This is what I evaluate."

YMMV,

Mike
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Old 09-27-2010, 09:48 PM   #30 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Bananas are not picky when it comes to artificial light. I have used Normal-output (NO)fluorescents, VHO fluorescents, T5, PC fluorescents, and Metal halide. The best growth was using 2x40watt NO 6500K fluorescents. I also used a 400 watt 6500K Iwasaki MH that worked very well. If I was limited on space, i'd use NO fluorescents. If I had plenty of room, I'd use a 400 watt MH with electronic ballast and reflector like this... That is what has worked for me... FWIW

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Old 09-28-2010, 02:21 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

A client of mine in Riverside county has converted his orchid growing grounds into year-round vegetable and fruit production. The existing plant greenhouses have translucent ceilings, with only the 1st six feet of sides being opaque. He has a geothermal well that provides heat and electric power year-round. He pays for about 1/2 his water due to the trade-off in the costs of filtering the salt-laden fluids from the well.

The greenhouses are all about 1 acre in size. One of them is dedicated to bananas. From fall through spring, the light through the roof is supplemented with full-spectrum plant bulbs for a total effect of 13 hours daylight at a rate of 1200 Watts per plant (at times, some of this is coming from the sun). Their are no reflectors in place at the bulbs because (a) the greenhouse "glass" is partially reflective on the bottom side and (b) reflectors would block natural sunlight.
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Old 09-28-2010, 02:49 PM   #32 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Last year when my banana's were only 1ft or so I had 4 of them under a 10,000k, 400watt MH with a reflector and a 200 wat Compact florescent in a shop hood. I had the plants within a foot of the bulbs and when they grew I just lowered the pots down and kept the plants about the same distance. When I finally put them outside for the summer they had very sturdy stems and around 4ft. This was from New Years to the first of May.

Now they are 8ft or larger and I had to cut them down to 6ft to get them inside for the winter I purchased an extra 6bulb 4ft T-5 system from here

Hydrofarm T5 4FT Designer Fluorescent Grow Lights - Plantlighting Hydroponics & Grow Lights

Since they were much larger this fall I needed to cover more area. I don't necessarily want them growing a lot over winter but just sustain them til spring. I bought the unit with all 6500k bulbs, since I am already using the 10,00k MH. Given that does this sound acceptable? The building is 18x12ft and heated. I plan on keeping the inside temp around 55degrees and also will be running a humidifier. Keeping the temp lower should slow the growth down alot I hope. ANy other suggestions.?
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:19 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

My DC seems to love the combo of hydro and LED. It's adding a leaf per week, with a tiny internodal length. The guy I bought the plant from said the plant would start producing fruit when it gets between 40-50 leaves (a very rough estimate, IMO) but that would be in about nine months. If true, and it keeps growing at this rate, it would be nearly perfect. I want to show it at the county fair next summer (August 9-13).

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Old 10-09-2010, 12:58 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Out here in California the medicinal cannabis growers all have licenses from the state. They utilize greenhouses 1 to 3 acres in size -- often those previously used in the ornamental flower trade. Their use of supplemental lighting is minimal in the summer but very important during the winter. Many of these growers have discovered an interesting truth: it is more profitable to grow leafy and fruiting vegetables in those greenhouses than cannabis. Now if you think 3 acres is a large greenhouse, consider this facility in Salinas CA with 3,000,000 sq.ft. "under glass":

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Old 10-09-2010, 01:20 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

That's large but pales in comparison to Eurofresh's operation in Wilcox, AZ. 318 acres of greenhouses! That's 13.85 million square feet!

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Old 10-09-2010, 03:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

One thing they all have in common: no LED.
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Old 10-09-2010, 09:35 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

But they are not growing a solitary banana plant!

I am well aware and have studied, in depth, greenhouse growing and artificial light. I know the DLI necessary for veggies and lots of flowers. That and $1 will get me a McDonald's Sausage Biscuit.

To raise tomatoes, I use 600 watt MH systems. To raise seedlings, I use 23-105 watt CFL bulbs. I just posted how my plant, in my growing conditions, under the light I am using, is doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Old 10-09-2010, 10:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

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But they are not growing a solitary banana plant!
True! LED works well for indoor foliage.

In terms of energy requirements to have a solitary dwarf Cavendish produce a meaningful crop, you'll need 800W output full plant spectrum for 9 hours per day provided the ambient air temperature is in the 75F to 85F range and the plant is receiving 2-3 lbs of something like 15-5-22 + minors & micronutrients per year.
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:44 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

Richard,

You must be smoking and not eating the bananas. The plants need about 35,000 foot candles per 12-hour day. At 75 lumens per watt, your 800 watt light, placed a foot above the plant, is going to deliver 60,000 FC per hour!

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Old 10-10-2010, 12:03 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: MH Vs. HPS Vs. LED Vs. Fluorescent

For more standard size bananas, we use 2kW output per plant, of which about 1.2kW is incident upon the plant. The bulbs are 1 meter distance from the foliage. During the summer months, the sun provides about 1/2 of this but during the winter only about 100W to 200W. The nutrients are the same as below but the levels are at 5-lbs per plant per year.
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