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Banana Plant Health And Maintenance Topics This forum is for discussions of banana plant health topics such as coloration issues, burning, insects, pruning, transplanting, separating pups, viruses, disease, and other general banana plant health and maintenance issues.


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Old 08-22-2017, 02:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

About six weeks ago, I posted a question about the cigar leaf on my 10-ft-tall Cavendish, which had drooped badly after I fertilized. Since then, EVERY cigar leaf has come out somewhat bent over, and for weeks I unrolled them by hand (often tearing them in the process--they were pretty fragile) until I could no longer reach them with the help of a stepladder. The remaining leaves unfurled for the most part, although each has a bent tip that does not unroll.
Today I saw the latest cigar leaf, and I can't see how it will ever unfurl on its own. I haven't fertilized again, so I'm at a loss as to why this problem has worsened. Any thoughts/suggestions?

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Old 08-22-2017, 05:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

I have exactly the same problem with my Tigua. The leaves won't unfold and thereby crush the next one coming out. I am trying to help it but result is not looking good.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

How much water is this plant getting? I'm looking at all the dropped leaves. ... Was the fertilizer dry or liquid and how much was applied?
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:07 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

Calcium deficiency? When mine start doing this, it's time for more dolomite lime.
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Old 08-24-2017, 05:14 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

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Originally Posted by robguz24 View Post
Calcium deficiency? When mine start doing this, it's time for more dolomite lime.
A plant still needs water to take up fertilizer and minerals. The nutrients can be in the soil but unavailable due to drought. ... This was why i asked about watering. From all the dropped leaves, that plant needs water first. But, there could still be other problems
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:44 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

For me it has gotten lots of water since Dallas has had its greenest summer since I moved here 20 years ago. Plus I water it several times a week. Calcium is interesting theory so how do I correct that?
Also some of the other bananas around my pool that used to reach 8-9 feet during summer now goes halfway so could that also be due to Calcium deficiency? I have been feeding all of them Banana fuel. Except the Tigua which got a nice portion of manure when I planted it thanks to a friend who bought a barn that came with manure included.
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Old 08-24-2017, 03:51 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

Add lime to the soil to correct calcium deficiency. Should be available at nurseries or fertilizer stores.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:34 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

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Originally Posted by nph View Post
... Calcium is interesting theory so how do I correct that? ... Except the Tigua which got a nice portion of manure when I planted it thanks to a friend who bought a barn that came with manure included.
Manure often contains auxin type herbicide residue, especially, aminopyralid. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aminopyralid. Auxin type herbicides are notorious for causing leaf distortions. In tomato plants, I have had some success in counteracting such leaf distortions by spraying with a 10 ppm solution of Thidizuron (TDZ). The use of TDZ for this purpose is completely experimental.

Extra calcium should help because Ca is an auxin antagonist during cell wall expansion (Sorry, I lost a reference for this). It is best applied as a calcium nitrate solution, 1 tbs./gal., as fertilizer.
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Old 08-26-2017, 01:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

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Originally Posted by edwmax View Post
How much water is this plant getting? I'm looking at all the dropped leaves. ... Was the fertilizer dry or liquid and how much was applied?
It gets plenty of water--I just photographed it on a very hot day. All my naner leaves droop like that when it's really hot in the middle of the day, but they perk back up in the evening. Fertilizer (12-12-12) was dry; maybe a pound? I watered it in.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

Hot humid days can cause calcium deficiency. Calcium moves through the plant with transpirational water. If something causes the plant to not transpire enough, (high humidity, stomatal closure etc...) You tend to see these things. Calcium deficiency can also be caused by too much in the way of other nutrients like N and K.
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Old 08-27-2017, 12:38 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

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Originally Posted by katykat View Post
It gets plenty of water--I just photographed it on a very hot day. All my naner leaves droop like that when it's really hot in the middle of the day, but they perk back up in the evening. Fertilizer (12-12-12) was dry; maybe a pound? I watered it in.

With plenty of water, the leaves should not be drooped. ... Drooping leaves is a good indicator of need for water. ... During really hot days (90 F plus), my banana leaves don't droop. I water the plants.

1 lb of 12-12-12 is not too much fertilizer, if it wasn't poured at the base of the plant; but in a circle about 12" or more away from the base.
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Old 08-27-2017, 02:32 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

On a very hot sunny day mine fold some also. It's a natural thing a Musa does. By folding the leaves it reduces exposure to the sun therefore there is less transpiration from the leaves. My plants stay fully watered and some do this more than others. I find AAA types do it the most. I rarely see my Orinoco that folded. If you live in the south on a 100f day go look at lower leaves. You will see it. They will be unfolded and back solid flat in the afternoon! It's really amazing they can do this. Think of how much water they loose through the leaves. I bet it helps a lot!!

The roller stuck and deformed with brown (sunburn spot) towards the end is no big deal! Lots of water/rain and-or recent fertilizer can cause this. I agree with the calcium, a little lime wouldn't hurt. But don't worry. Just keep watering and it will straighten out.

Both of you, NPH you also! The roller stuck/deformed and the next leaf/roller stuck inside it is from it growing too fast! It hasn't hardened to the sun as the roller came out. So the moisture inside the roller caused it to get burnt on the end. This makes the roller even harder to unroll! I wait until I see the 2nd roller bent like a "Z" then I tear the right side freeing it.

I use lots of lime and mine still do this. I actually force them to do this on purpose. My thoughts are that all Musa have a vegetive cycle. The faster I can grow them through this cycle means the faster I will get a bud! Right? I have been pushing some of mine hard with fertalizer all year and I would say 90% are like yours above. Even my 15' ones!! I had a BAD winter! It pretty much reset me except for a few. So I figured this year was a good year to test this (speed growing).

Is it working? I think so! I'm not expecting to fruit long cycle stuff in 1 season here. I'm talking AA types and maybe a couple AAA. I have 11 flowers so far. I promise you I have the UGLIEST plants on here by far! But I have 11 flowers!! Lol seriously. Some don't have a single leaf not all bent, twisted, torn, and jacked up. Don't try this if you want pretty plants! I bet I have easily put 2x more urea and MOP than a normal year.

Because of a late cold spell this spring my first VC came up as an established spring pup on March 26th. It flowered on August 19th. That's 4 months and 26 days? That's fast for me! What do y'all think!

My personal goal was to get ripe fruit from a gran nain spring pup in 1 season! I'm cutting it close right now! It better hurry and bloom! It came up March 13th!

I'll give an update at the end of the season.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja View Post
Hot humid days can cause calcium deficiency. Calcium moves through the plant with transpirational water. If something causes the plant to not transpire enough, (high humidity, stomatal closure etc...) You tend to see these things. Calcium deficiency can also be caused by too much in the way of other nutrients like N and K.

Too expand a little on what Nic said.

1) ... Banana plants must transpire (expire) water for sap & nutrients to move from the roots up the plant. Plants do not have a circulatory system, therefor water/sap is a one-way movement though the plant and depends on transpiration to do so.

2) ... Leaf droop is a function of the banana plant to reduce the amount of sunlight & radiation being receive by those BIG leaves during hot days as an attempt to conserve water within the plant. ... On hot days when the roots can not furnish the amount of water needed, the stoma (cell pores) will close to stop or reduce transpiration and signal the plant to droop the leaves. This is a unique self defense/preservation mechanism of the banana plant. It is a signal of a stress and the plant is going dormant which effects plant growth & fruiting. ... Now, I do agree that on extreme hot days ( 100+ F) the stoma will close & leaves will droop due to the extreme temperature (&/or high humidity) regardless of water availability. ... Additionally research has shown that as transpiration increases the leaf temperature decreases. Thus, transpiration is also a cooling mechanism of the plant.

3) ... Banana (most varieties) plant roots are within the top 18 to 24 inches of the soil surface. This is the area most effected by direct soil moisture evaporation during dry spells. ... In my area soil moisture evaporation (when not raining) is usually 1/4" to 1/3" per day. So every 4 days is a loss of water equal to 1" to 1 1/4" of rain during dry spells and this effects the amount of available water for the plant. Soil moisture evaporation is not all that Bad as it also helps to cool the soil and plant roots, but the loss of water needs to be replaced for water to be available for plants. Most days (morning & evening), I water the banana & garden enough to offset the soil evaporation and replenish available water to the roots if needed. I use leaf droop as a guide as to how much water to apply.

4) ... Daily watering, many forum users will advise against daily watering of banana plants (in ground). But, ... banana plants are tropical plants and in the tropics most places will receive daily rains usually before day break. ... So as long as the water is fresh, the soil is well draining and the plant is in need, daily watering will not hurt banana plants.

This summer with temperatures in the 98/99 deg F range, my Gran Nain, Williams, 1000 Finger, Dwarf Red, Calli Gold, and Orinoco did not droop their leaves. I may have water or misted the plants 3 X's during the day and watered the soil if there were any sign of drooping.


Next problem lack of nutrients: Fertilizer and nutrients can be in the soil but if the plant isn't getting enough water then the nutrients can not be transported into the plant. Until the hydration of the plant is corrected it is near impossible to determine a nutrient deficiency without a soil test.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: More Cigar Leaf Issues (pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja View Post
]Hot humid days can cause calcium deficiency. ... Calcium moves through the plant with transpirational water. If something causes the plant to not transpire enough, (high humidity, stomatal closure etc...)
I see three problems with that theory:

1. All else equal, "Hot" increases transpiration.

2. Transpiration is a minimum at night because the stomata close but, usually the leaf furls grow at night without distorted growth.

3. Calcium transported to unfurled leaves by high transpiration cannot be transported back down to the meristem because calcium cannot be transported by the phloem. There is no transpiration in the leaf furl before it emerges from the pseudostem, therefore a calcium deficiency in the leaf furl should be causally unrelated to transpiration.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calciu...lant_disorder)

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Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja View Post
Calcium deficiency can also be caused by too much in the way of other nutrients like N and K.
True, but, misleading because, most typically, fast growth, in combination with poorly soluble sources of calcium within the soil, is the cause of calcium deficiency within growing tissue. The roots cannot supply enough calcium to the rapidly growing tissue therefore the new growth is distorted. Slower growth with less N and K will eliminate a calcium deficiency in growing tissue, but, slowing growth by other means, such as less light, will also eliminate the calcium deficiency. And, a calcium deficiency caused by fast growth is self correcting because the distorted leaves that it produces will eventually slow growth. Since "fast growth" is desirable, it is best to correct a calcium deficiency by increasing soluble calcium at the root zone rather than reducing N and K. Incidentally, calcium cannot be recycled within a plant except, maybe (?), from a seed.

Quote:
Hot humid days can cause calcium deficiency. ... You tend to see these things.
Yes, but the mechanism for this is that high temperature and humidity increase the growth rate.

Last edited by aruzinsky : 08-27-2017 at 12:02 PM.
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