Panaroma

Hi there to u all,


Does anybody has experiences in soaking the musaseeds in a sollution of seaweedconcentrate and warm water? Has anyone used it before as a foliarspray on young plants(3-6 leaves)? It's been said it has natural growth hormoons.
Maybe an interresting experiment, i was thinking? Maybe watering the soil mixture once with this sollution? Flying dutchman?


Gunther, Brussels

the flying dutchman

Hi gunther, I do have grown weed but know nothing about seaweed.
It is healthy to eat they say. I think the medium would be good enough
to give it a try. You can't spoil anything I guess. I soaked sikkimensis in
sugar water and some in normal water but they have not sprouted yet so
I don't know if it makes any difference at this moment.

(Groeten en ik zou het gewoon proberen, je weet nooit!!!!
Zeewierextract wordt wel net als brandnetelgier gebruikt dacht ik.
(sorry this is dutch)

ron

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jackdarook

A couple of years ago i tried one bottle of the sea weed solution as a foliar feed and did not buy a second. It may have helped in some very subtle way but i could not see any effect. Maybe i was not patient enough.

R, aka jackdarook

RobG7aChattTN

I think the whole seaweed extract thing is supposed to be for the natural Gibbarrellic acid (a growth hormone) that is in the extract. I also recall someone on the germination section stating that Gibbarrellic acid does not work on banana seeds. I know I'm not giving great details here, but do the research with what is in the seaweed extract and if it has been found to help in germination with Musa seeds, etc.

mrbungalow

A given number of seeds in a batch of Musa seeds are naturally unable to germinate. This is because these lack certain structures, for example an embryo. This varies from species to species though.

Because such a relatively high percentage of the seeds are naturally sterile, there is no "wonder cure" for sprouting musa seeds.
There is pretty wide agreement these days that to break musa-seeds' dormancy you need to get the temps way up and way down in a 24 hr period.

Interestingly, pH seems to play a role, I think 5.6 is the magic number. I allways get more seeds to sprout in peat than in soil with sand. But I have never really paid much attention to this. Maybe I will on my next batch.

This emphasizes again the ridiculus practice of selling 5 or 10 musa seeds. Atleast 50 are needed to ensure germination. I allways buy in the 100s.

Erlend

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bigdog

This thread should be moved to the germination forum, I think. Good topic!

I think Rob is correct about the seaweed containg gibberellin. From studies I have read, and from personal experience, the double integument seed coats of Musa are, if not disturbed by mechanical means, impenetrable to gases and water. Some disagree with me, and I'm sure results do vary. I've never used it as a foliar spray.


You would be surprised to find out that this isn't usually the case, Erlend. Tests were done in a 1960s study on Musa balbisiana, in which the seeds that did not germinate were tested for viability. They cut the seeds open and did a tetrazolium test on the embryos. Almost ALL of the seeds were viable (over 95%), but only a small percentage, comparatively, germinated.
Yes, this is the way to go to get the best germination percentages (at present). It's finding the right combination of temps and time that's tricky! I also believe that there's another dormancy, or more, that still hasn't been figured out.

I've got an experiment going right now with M. sikkimensis, some sowed in a peat/perlite mix, and the other sowed in quartz sand. I'll let you know if I get any results! pH does play a role, but a limited one. A pH < 3.7 is bad, and will result in zero germination. Varying pHs above that didn't seem to make a difference.

Agreed! I get a kick out of these 5-packs of Musa seeds! When I first started trying to germinate Musa seeds a few years ago, I only would buy ten or so at a time though. Now, after many failures, I know better! I think if you only want one or two plants, and the seeds are readily available, then 20 might do it. If, however, the seeds aren't available that often, not much is known about their germination percentage, etc., then at least 50 is definitely called for.

GordonHawk

I use Maxi crop..a seaweed concentrate gathered off Norway somewhere it's clean [er]..I didathree day soak onsome pink velvet seeds...still nothing after a month and 1/2... I've heard there are no growth limit regularators in seaweed... it will keep growing till it breaksoff.. Gordon

mrbungalow

Yes! I have read that 60s article I think, if it was the one with several tests and methods!
Hope I didn't misinterpret anything. From what I understood musa balbisiana and musa acuminata where about the only examples given. But I clearly remember someone saying-somewhere that a fair percentage of musa seeds lack certain structures, or are built in a way that inhibits germination. If they are sterile, they're sterile! (I know, very unproffessional not referring to an article).
As I stated in my earlier post, germination results varies between species. I think maybe balbisiana is a poor example since people almost get 100% germination with it at times. But we've all struggled with acuminata and other species at some point.(Will the real Musa Ingens please stand up?)

Yes, I agree there must be some chemical-related dormancy as well - for seeds that contain the structures they are supposed to. So I guess we should all sit down and think in ways of how nature solved the problem. I am thinking in the ways of: "If a monkey eats a banana with the seeds, do these get some kind of chemical treatment inside the monkey? When they come out, is the shell more permeable?" It's fun visualizing the different variables, almost like FBI-detective work.

BTW, do you know how a tetrazolium-test is carried out?

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the flying dutchman

I agree totally with erlend

In nature the seeds do not fall in seaweed/cocopeat/perlite or a
mixture of that but they are able to multiply themselves though.

I think you should also take a period of a year before saying how many
percent germinated, this is a fair period for the seed.

That a major part not germinate is very natural. Its known from trees
that some years they produce a lot non-viable seeds, I think due to
the weather circumstances. Maybe this varies for bananas too.

Actually the banana seeds are taken to early out of the banana because
the bananas should rotten first in my believe before the seed is actually
on his best.

If there is someone who can describe the whole procedure in nature, it
could give us more knowledge about dormancy etc.



Ron

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51st state

agree with the natural bit too.

I've got 100 sikkimensis in various composts sterile/non sterile and some i put in a container with some banana pulp (well I ate most of it!!) left to rot down with the seeds. We know ripe bananas release gas which helps ripen others so why shouldn't rotting pulp help kick start the seeds, along with the usual alternating temperatures.

Kev

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a>

MediaHound

Didn't see it till now, moved!

jbclem

I've recently read a paper about using Potassium Nitrate (KN03) to increase germination and seedling vigor for papaya seeds; I wonder how that would work with banana.

I've uploaded it as an attachment in case anyone is interested.


jc

Attached Images

Gardening...optimizing germination of papaya seeds.pdf (220.8 KB, 11 views)

mrbungalow

Intersting about KNO3.
But again I ask; If a fair percentage of the seeds are un-viable and the rest that ARE viable usually germinate fairly well at changing temperature-regimes, what's the point with soaking, cracking, etc. etc.?


Erlend

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MediaHound

Nice paper.
Were the unsoaked ones soaked in at least water, or nothing at all?
Should there not be a control then? One with no water, one with water, and one with water with KNO3 ?

bigdog

Erlend,

Tetrazolium tests have been done in the past on Musa seeds that wouldn't germinate, and it was found that well over 90% of the seeds that wouldn't germinate had viable embryos. I must admit, you seem to have more success at germinating Musa seeds than anybody else I know of! I still have yet to germinate one Musa sikkimensis seed. Then I marvel at the picture of your plastic box just full of sedlings recently germinated! Of the 150 seeds I've tried so far, no luck. And I only germinated 1 out of 80 M. 'Helen's Hybrid' seeds, and 1/10 M. 'Daj Giant', both M. sikkimensis hybrids. Whatever you're doing, it seems to be working!

Phil Markey (Trebrown) recommends on the forum on his site to use KNO3 to soften the Musa seed coat. I haven't tried that either, but I do have access to some KNO3 at school. Maybe I'll give it a go.

I've found in my research that it takes quite some time for the Musa seed to become imbibed. I would recommend soaking the seeds for at least a week, preferably two, changing the water frequently. Then after soaking, add the seaweed solution to the mix.

mrbungalow

KNO3 is also known as "Saltpeter", and can be bought at drug-stores in small amounts. (I THINK you can, in these days of terror!) I will definately give Saltpeter a try, since I seem to have misunderstood the results of those tetrazolium-tests. I thought the number was 40% viability for musa acuminata.. But I have had close to 100% germination of musa balbisiana in the past.

Why you are having trouble with germination is a mystery to me. We probably use the same seed-sources, so there must be another environmental factor.
- Do you use peat-based soil with a pH of around 6?
- Do you get the temperatures way low (to the lower 50s) and way high (to the 80s) in 14h-10h intervals?
- Is the medium wet enough? "Damp but not wet" is stated on almost all seed-packages, but this is probably interpreted differently by different people. Without enough water, no life can exist!

I have had satisfactory results with the following species:
Balbisiana
Acuminata
Flaviflora
Sikkimensis
Red tiger
Helen
Formosana
Ornata
Velutina
NagensiumX (whatever that is)
Ensete ventricosum (But sometimes, batches refuse to germinate at all)

I am still having some trouble with:
The legendary "m. Ingens"
Itinerans
Travelers palm
musella lasiocarpa

Erlend

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the flying dutchman

I have 3 manipur out of 10 seeds so far and 2 helen's hybrids out of 10
so far. Maybe more will come.
I use sterile soil and keep it really wet. I made my own germination box with a heat-mat and also used the fluct-temps method as erlend.
The seeds are now out of the box because it is to hot to realize those fluctuating temperatures in the house, so they are outside in the greenhouse
where they have day-night temps.

Ron

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Chironex