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-   -   Germination guide (http://www.bananas.org/f30/germination-guide-3116.html)

51st state 12-10-2007 07:54 PM

Germination guide
 
I know this info is around on the site but would anyone care to post a step-by-step guide to musa germination (with photos) using the heat mat, and ziplok baggie method. Erlend maybe? :coldbanana:

and am I right when I remember that Ensete are norally germinated at a fairly steady 30 C? rather than the fluctuating temps required for Musa?



http://api.wunderground.com/weathers...D55&format=XML

Tropicallvr 12-13-2007 12:26 PM

Re: germination guide
 
I wish I would have taken some photos.
There really needs to be some kind of guide at the top of this page(that stays there) telling the basics to germinating musa, fluctuation, soil, ect.
You are correct about Ensete germination, although a little temp variation seems needed for the Thai E.superbum, and E.perrieri needs a seed bed, and needs a dry/then wet (neglected) to sprout.
The last Ensete I germinated was E.superbum India on top of the water heater for the house.

CookieCows 01-31-2008 11:07 AM

Re: germination guide
 
When soaking your seeds in warm water for a couple days ... are you setting up an fish aquarium heater or something in shallow water? Probably not that..... lol.... I haven't been able to figure out what type of container would be used and how the water is kept at a constant warm temp. Carefully set pie pan or something on heat mat?

Deb

tropical-pete 01-31-2008 12:49 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Tropicallvr - I agree. At the top of this page, a detailed guide should be put on how to germinate both Musa & Ensete seeds, including specific requirement for individual species (for example, that Ensete 'Thai Superbum' requires a little temp. fluctuation, just as you stated). I myself am new to all of this, and I'd love to learn how to germinate my nana seeds successfully. I think it would be a great idea to post a detailed guide as people will only need to ask for specific information then, as a guide for sowing the seed will already be present. Thanks, take care

Pete

Richard 01-31-2008 01:09 PM

Re: germination guide
 
The "Bananas Wiki" might be a better location ...

jason 01-31-2008 01:34 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 51st state (Post 24174)
I know this info is around on the site but would anyone care to post a step-by-step guide to musa germination (with photos) using the heat mat, and ziplok baggie method. Erlend maybe? :coldbanana:

and am I right when I remember that Ensete are norally germinated at a fairly steady 30 C? rather than the fluctuating temps required for Musa?



Weather Underground

wich 30c is 86 degrees for those of us in the usa!

tropical-pete 02-17-2008 01:20 PM

Re: germination guide
 
erm....well is anyone going to post a guide for general Musa seed germination? I have lots of seed awaiting sowing, but I just need to know how! What is the general reccomended planting medium, temps, light requirements etc. and that sort of stuff?

Thanks, take care

Pete

Tropicallvr 02-18-2008 02:25 PM

Re: germination guide
 
1. Get a soil that is bacteria free(cook in oven to sterilize) Or buy seed starting mix. Coco peat & perlite mixed togher is a good medium for sprouting. Get zip lock baggies to place the seeds in, the bigger the bag the better, I have cooked seeds in too small of a bag. Half gallon or gallon size I think is best.
2. Get a heat mat with an appliance timer(bought seperatly), and set up in a cooler room(60F) in your house. Put some sort of tray(seedling flat) on heat mat, so baggies aren't directly on the mat.
3.Soak seeds for about 24-48(or more) hours changing the water daily. Some seeds have alot of banana pulp and might need to be scrubbed a few times as they soak. After they are done soaking, give them a scrub and rinse with either diluted hydrogen peroxide, or a 10% bleach solution. Some bleach clings to seeds and makes them feel slimey, and if this is the case give them a extra dish soap wash to get the bleach off.
4. Hydrate your soil medium, just to the point of moist, but not dripping moist. I ussaly run a drip into the baggy as I stir it as the water drips in. Not too wet not too dry. Then sprinkle the seeds on the surface, and sprinkle a little soil on them, just so they are barley covered.
5. Set you timer for being on from anywhere from 5 hours on to 12 hours on. It's up to you I've had results with short and long, but now I do around 7-8 hours on.
6. Check regularly by hand or with an outdoor thermometer the soil to make sure it isn't getting too hot, and raise your tray off the heat mat if it is. I have lost alot of seeds from frying them. If your soil is drying out then it's probably too hot.
6. No need for a light to germinate them, they will do it in pitch black, but you'll need to check them almost every day, because if you miss a seedling that has sprouted and they stretch too much for light then they use all their reserves, and don't have enough energy to produce the first leaf, then they bend over and die. Be careful not to expose them to full sunshine too quickly either if they have been in a dark place.
Some species are fine to dig up out of the baggies and seperate from the soil before it has it's first leaf, and some are really touchy and you must leave them in the baggy till they have a leaf.
when they are ready just put new potted seedling in a warm well lit place(morning sun), or artificial light, and let it go to town, fetilizing lightly after 3 or so leaf leafs have been put out.
LMK if I missed anything that your wondering about. I HOPE YOU GET SOME SPROUTS!

bigdog 02-18-2008 09:57 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Kyle, that was a fantastic how-to tutorial! The only thing that I would add is that some may want to use plastic storage boxes with a tight-fitting lid instead of the baggies. It seems to me that sometimes there isn't enough air in the bags when the seedlings germinate, or sometimes they germinate right up against the bag and get too wet. Both work fine if you leave enough air. In any event, you do want to start checking daily after 2-3 weeks for germination.

When using a box, and transplanting a seedling from the box to a pot (try to use a sterile medium when they are this young to prevent fungal attacks!), I use my finger to gently push down into the medium with one finger about 1/2 inch from the seedling. Hook your finger underneath the seedling as deep as you can. Then grab the seedling with your other hand, and lift it up with the finger that is in the medium. Do not pull it up by your other hand, or you may risk damaging the roots! You might damage a root or two anyway, but I've not lost one yet doing it this way. The rule of thumb is to be gentle! Seedlings are very fragile, and won't easily recover from too many roots being damaged.

I have given up on using flats and trying to germinate in the greenhouse. Invariably, fungus gnats become a problem quickly. If you do want to germinate in the greenhouse (or outside), make sure that the cover of the box has holes in the top of it! Either that or set it where the sun won't hit it. I have lost one seedling in the greenhouse from cooking it the day after it germinated, on a cool, sunny winter day, where the temperature under the humidity dome must have been into the 100s Fahrenheit.

I have not had any luck with non-sterile medium, although there was a study that had better germination with it. I can't stress enough how important it is to start out with a sterile mix, sterile box (or bag), and to sterilize the seeds (like Kyle said) before sowing. If it isn't a sterile medium, you don't know if there are any pathogens in there just waiting to attack your seeds/seedlings. Especially if it is a rare seed or seedling, you want to give it the best chance possible. I'm sure some have had great success just throwing some seeds in a pot of old soil, LOL, but I'll bet it was a pretty common seed like Musa velutina or such.

Tropicallvr 02-18-2008 11:43 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Yes, the finger hook method! Were getting really down to the details here, I almost forgot about that.
Good point about having enough air in the baggies, that's another reason why the large baggies work better than the small ones.

bikoro child 02-19-2008 08:57 AM

Re: germination guide
 
thanks for all these explanations here are 3 pics to show you how I do



mrbungalow 02-19-2008 09:37 AM

Re: germination guide
 
I will come back to this soon, I will try to put in a little effort in presenting my technique.

Cheers
Erlend

bigdog 02-19-2008 11:38 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbungalow (Post 29741)
I will come back to this soon, I will try to put in a little effort in presenting my technique.

Cheers
Erlend

Yes, you had a great tutorial in another thread, Erlend, and it would be great if you could post it again here.

tropical-pete 02-23-2008 02:08 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Thanks very much for posting there guides guys - I really appreciate it, and I'm sure everyone else will. I know have a good idea on how to sow my Musa seeds, so I'll get them going right away :)

Thanks, take care

Pete

mrbungalow 02-26-2008 11:03 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Here's a little video I worked on this weekend. Hope you'll like it, and that it could come in useful!

Musa germination guide

the flying dutchman 02-26-2008 12:51 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Thats awesome, thank you Erlend. I made this a sticky thread because
there is so much valuable information in it.

Ron

tropical-pete 02-26-2008 12:56 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Thanks Ron :2200:

I have a bunch of banana seeds ready to plant, but I was reluctant to plant them. The amount of different ways of germinating them out there are so numerous, I simply couldn't decide which would give me the best change of germination. I was worried that my seeds wouldn't germinate, and then (even though Musa seeds are one of the hardest to germinate) I would lose all confidence in my germination skills and never plant another seed again! However, I now have a few different ways to pick from, and I know that all of them should yield good results.

Thanks so much! Take care

Pete

Tropicallvr 02-26-2008 02:13 PM

Re: germination guide
 
very cool video Erland! Nice sound track!
One thing that I forgot to mention is that if you try with the plastic "tupper ware" storage boxes instead of the baggies, make sure you get ones with very tight fitting lids, fungas gnats wiped out my seeds because the lids weren't tight fitting.

51st state 02-27-2008 07:41 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Excel Erlend. Sums it all up really

Loving the soundtrack :2223:

mrbungalow 02-27-2008 07:56 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tropicallvr (Post 30385)
very cool video Erland! Nice sound track!
One thing that I forgot to mention is that if you try with the plastic "tupper ware" storage boxes instead of the baggies, make sure you get ones with very tight fitting lids, fungas gnats wiped out my seeds because the lids weren't tight fitting.

Good point Kyle: I realized I forgot to address the issue of contamination in the video!! I use a potting soil that is supposed to be guaranteed disease/ pest free, so it hasn't been that much of an issue for me. But sometimes the seeds themselves carry critters or fungus spores.

Erlend

SteveW 02-27-2008 03:29 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Thanks for posting the video Erlend,I'm expecting some itinerans'india form' and a few others any day now so will follow your instructions to the letter.
In the past I've only ever soaked seed for a couple of days,I never would've thought to soak them for as long as a fortnight.Hopefully I'll have better success now.

jpfloors 02-28-2008 12:52 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Tried clicking on the link and nothing would come up. I searched for it (several different ways). So if anyone else gets that problem just search for "Germinating banana seeds," the title of the video.

jpfloors 02-28-2008 01:12 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Thanks for the awsome video Erlend! Definately learned a lot!

MediaHound 02-29-2008 03:06 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbungalow (Post 30361)
Here's a little video I worked on this weekend. Hope you'll like it, and that it could come in useful!

Musa germination guide

Here it is in the page, I used "YT" tags to embed it.
Thank you very much for creating this, I sent you a message on YouTube as well.

[yt]8bU6wley2HM[/yt]


Also, Erland, perhaps you can reupload this video as it was removed:
http://www.bananas.org/f9/little-tri...here-1575.html

Thanks again! You did a wonderful job producing the video and thank you for the plug of Bananas.org in it. I've subscribed to your YT videos, btw.

:discocrazed:

mrbungalow 02-29-2008 05:53 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Thanks for the praise Jarred!

Youtube can be risky business!

Concerning the other video; I did get some complaints, so not wanting any trouble I removed it. Tribute or not, people who don't want to appear on youtube have the right not to! :-)
So to me, about that video beeing removed is no big deal, as long everyone is happy!

I do enjoy making videos though, so pretty soon there will be more! But I will be prepared to ask people beforehand about any pictures etc.

Cheers
Erlend

sandy0225 02-29-2008 06:09 PM

Re: germination guide
 
I've been sterilizing my seeds this year with a 1t/1gal physan 20/water ratio. So far everythings been coming up really good and I've only lost ONE seedling to damping off. And I know I've got thousands up right now.
I've never had such a good success rate.
I also sterilize my flats/containers/domes with a quick dip of 1T Physan 20/1gallon of water.

CookieCows 02-29-2008 08:28 PM

Re: germination guide
 
I was reading about the physan20 and I can't use it because of the toxicity. My questions is.... was there something that you tried in the past that definitly did not work? Hoping to avoid pitfalls!

Deb

Mark Hall 03-02-2008 10:47 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Erland would you mind if I posted your video on HTUK please ?

There are always questions being asked on how to germinate banana seeds
and your vid is the best I have seen at explaining it so that newcommers can understand it.


Mark

prettylady7245 03-02-2008 11:47 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Erland thanks for the video...kewl..
I get a little quicker germination when I take my rotary dremel and grind the seed just to the edge of the inside and I use this on all my hard shelled seed then i use a peroxide solution to soak all my seed...1 oz of peroxide to 1 pint of water... I have had great success and good germination doing this..
Thanks again for the video...great job...
Peggy

mrbungalow 03-02-2008 04:17 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Hall (Post 30977)
Erland would you mind if I posted your video on HTUK please ?

There are always questions being asked on how to germinate banana seeds
and your vid is the best I have seen at explaining it so that newcommers can understand it.


Mark

I'd feel nothing but honored! :-)

Erlend

Tropicallvr 03-15-2008 01:26 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by prettylady7245 (Post 30981)
Erland thanks for the video...kewl..
I get a little quicker germination when I take my rotary dremel and grind the seed just to the edge of the inside and I use this on all my hard shelled seed then i use a peroxide solution to soak all my seed...1 oz of peroxide to 1 pint of water... I have had great success and good germination doing this..
Thanks again for the video...great job...
Peggy

I used to think that scarifying was a good method, and it may work for some thick shelled Ensete species, but it also has lead to rot in many of my attempts.
If you take a look at some of the close up pictures Gabe has posted of Musa seeds cross cut, it shows how the embroyos are positioned right at the opening of the seed already. The opening is just a thin membrane that from the outside looks like a belly button on the seed.

donny4793 04-08-2008 11:42 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Ok maybe this is a dumb question so forgive me before hand. This is my first time trying to germinate banana seeds and in general I have followed most of the great suggestions in this forum. But I don't understand why you would want to transplant the seedlings so soon after germinnation? Wouldn't it work to use some sort of biodegradeable container to put your sterile starter in? Then a person could just put the container in a larger pot, when the time comes? It would seem to me that a person would not damage the seedlings roots so much. Any thoughts?

jpfloors 04-08-2008 12:29 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by donny4793 (Post 34347)
Ok maybe this is a dumb question so forgive me before hand. This is my first time trying to germinate banana seeds and in general I have followed most of the great suggestions in this forum. But I don't understand why you would want to transplant the seedlings so soon after germinnation? Wouldn't it work to use some sort of biodegradeable container to put your sterile starter in? Then a person could just put the container in a larger pot, when the time comes? It would seem to me that a person would not damage the seedlings roots so much. Any thoughts?

Hi Donny,

The issue with that is the peat pots arn't sterile... and when you enclose them inside an apparatus in the dark with heat, they're going to grow fungus like CRAZY and that could take over your seeds... plus you wouldn't want more than one seed in one of those pots to germinate in if you're planning to just take that and directly plant it with those pots. I use small 9 oz. plastic cups and plant between 5-20 seeds in each, and the replant them into the peat pots and into a ziplock once they germinate and from there put outside in the shade (I live in zone 10 so it's in the 80's here now). Hope this helps.

Josh

sandy0225 04-09-2008 08:19 AM

Re: germination guide
 
it doesn't seem to hurt them any to transplant them right away. They act like they don't know they've been moved if you do it carefully.

Caloosamusa 04-10-2008 07:06 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Thank you mrbungalow for your thread,

Some of us could not view your film, but the comments and informationals it stirred up were extremely helpful. I hail from a diease pressure area and found your information of great help.

Thank you for your thread and everyone for their additions.

zone 10 Fla (FL):jalapenonaner:

Chironex 04-19-2008 05:46 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Does anyone ascribe to the smoke treatment advertised on ebay for increasing musa germination rates and decreasing time?

jpfloors 04-19-2008 05:57 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chironex (Post 35205)
Does anyone ascribe to the smoke treatment advertised on ebay for increasing musa germination rates and decreasing time?

What exactly are they saying to do?

Chironex 04-19-2008 07:48 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Here is the link to the page on eBay. It sounds interesting, so I am thinking of trying it.

Propagation Smoke Treatment Essential 4 Some Oz Natives - eBay (item 360030459662 end time May-05-08 03:09:09 PDT)

Would like to know what you think of this. Anyone ever try it?

:2756:

jpfloors 04-19-2008 08:28 PM

Re: germination guide
 
I would say that'd be a very bad idea. This is just a general propagation method for seeds that REQUIRE to be fired to germinate... for example pine tree; the pine cone must be burnt to release the seeds. Notice that this method is only advertised for Australian native plant seeds that require this method. Bananas do not require this (unless there's a special seed that does, but that'd probably only one type of species or variety).

Tropicallvr 04-19-2008 08:42 PM

Re: germination guide
 
It might work for some of the savanah African Ensete species. Just a thought, some of them have some weird germinateing requirements, like the one that only sprouts out of ant hills after being carried to the colony.

jellyfish_sky 04-19-2008 09:39 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Hm... this is weird though.. I never heard of smoked vermiculite that can be sprinkled on top... I don't think just sprinkling the vermiculite will do. I use Smoke primer, which produces a solution where you soak seeds... I would tend to think that more smoke goes into the seed. Anybody tried that? On any kinds of seeds?

Chironex 04-20-2008 09:38 AM

Re: germination guide
 
I like the thought of the smoke primer that u use to soak the seeds. Where do you find it and what is the name of the product? Perhaps you could post a link to it....

I am all for something that improves germination and reduces the waiting time.

Chironex 04-20-2008 10:04 AM

Re: germination guide
 
I did a little Googling about this and found this link that appears to be what all the other links are selling:

Accessories for Growing Proteas

Some of the links specifically mentioned for Musa germination. I am thinking of trying it to see if there is a marked difference. Will post my results if I do.

Chironex 06-01-2008 09:51 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Just a follow-up note regarding the smoke treatment. I found this on seedman.com and wanted everyone to see it and comment:
Jim Johnson, Seedman is now the North America Distributor for the CAPE "Instant Smoke Plus" Seed Primer that we use in our own greenhouses. We find we receive significantly better germination results when we use this primer on Musa, palms, tropical, wildflower and other types of seeds. (underlining added) find it here: Cape Seed Germination Primer
I am also experimenting with GA3 - did a 5 day soak in 250 ppm GA3 solution on Balbisiana and Darjeeling. Planted them 2 days ago and will let you know how they fare. I did not nick the seeds, but may try this too in my next batch to see if it makes any difference.

mrbungalow 06-11-2008 03:55 AM

Re: germination guide
 
I have tried smoke-disks, GA3, and various raindances without much luck.

marksbananas 07-18-2008 02:22 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tropicallvr (Post 29703)
1. Get a soil that is bacteria free(cook in oven to sterilize) Or buy seed starting mix. Coco peat & perlite mixed togher is a good medium for sprouting. Get zip lock baggies to place the seeds in, the bigger the bag the better, I have cooked seeds in too small of a bag. Half gallon or gallon size I think is best.
2. Get a heat mat with an appliance timer(bought seperatly), and set up in a cooler room(60F) in your house. Put some sort of tray(seedling flat) on heat mat, so baggies aren't directly on the mat.
3.Soak seeds for about 24-48(or more) hours changing the water daily. Some seeds have alot of banana pulp and might need to be scrubbed a few times as they soak. After they are done soaking, give them a scrub and rinse with either diluted hydrogen peroxide, or a 10% bleach solution. Some bleach clings to seeds and makes them feel slimey, and if this is the case give them a extra dish soap wash to get the bleach off.
4. Hydrate your soil medium, just to the point of moist, but not dripping moist. I ussaly run a drip into the baggy as I stir it as the water drips in. Not too wet not too dry. Then sprinkle the seeds on the surface, and sprinkle a little soil on them, just so they are barley covered.
5. Set you timer for being on from anywhere from 5 hours on to 12 hours on. It's up to you I've had results with short and long, but now I do around 7-8 hours on.
6. Check regularly by hand or with an outdoor thermometer the soil to make sure it isn't getting too hot, and raise your tray off the heat mat if it is. I have lost alot of seeds from frying them. If your soil is drying out then it's probably too hot.
6. No need for a light to germinate them, they will do it in pitch black, but you'll need to check them almost every day, because if you miss a seedling that has sprouted and they stretch too much for light then they use all their reserves, and don't have enough energy to produce the first leaf, then they bend over and die. Be careful not to expose them to full sunshine too quickly either if they have been in a dark place.
Some species are fine to dig up out of the baggies and seperate from the soil before it has it's first leaf, and some are really touchy and you must leave them in the baggy till they have a leaf.
when they are ready just put new potted seedling in a warm well lit place(morning sun), or artificial light, and let it go to town, fetilizing lightly after 3 or so leaf leafs have been put out.
LMK if I missed anything that your wondering about. I HOPE YOU GET SOME SPROUTS!

Excellent guide i have a load of seeds arriving today and i was wondering what mix of coco peat and perlite you use, thanks mark

Gold3nku5h 07-21-2008 10:49 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Is there some reason that banana seeds should need smoke stratification? I am new to this forum because i've been looking for stuff on growing chinese dwarf banana from seed. It didn't work the first time i bought them, so im having to get serious about this batch, and i also fell in love with the looks of it, i may look for other cool bananas and good to eat ones too.

Tropicallvr 07-22-2008 11:10 AM

Re: germination guide
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marksbananas (Post 44993)
Excellent guide i have a load of seeds arriving today and i was wondering what mix of coco peat and perlite you use, thanks mark

Thanks Mark, somtimes I use straight coco peat, but mostly I like to mix in about 1/4 to 1/3 parts perlite.

Gold3nku5h- If you are talking about Musellea lasiocarpa, then you'll need to place them in a fridge for a few weeks before hand. They seem to be one of the only banana seeds that need cold straitification.

island cassie 07-31-2008 09:10 PM

Re: germination guide
 
I fell in love with the ensete superbum I saw growing here recently, and now I know the reason why there were no pups - I want to grow my own from seed. Bearing in mind that I cannot get anything special and can only sterilize the compost and supply warmth (lots of it), are there any tips anybody can give me before I start? I haven't ordered seeds yet.

Cassie

Gold3nku5h 08-01-2008 03:51 PM

Re: germination guide
 
Cassie :waving: - what was the reason why you couldn't get pups to produce? :2719: Is there a chance that raising a plant from seed that it may not produce pups for some reason? :2182: Or did i miss interperet your message? :dancinpup:


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