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Old 09-02-2011, 07:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

I am thinking of trying to buy some Williams Hybrid but I just read a few articles that say it is the same as the Gran Nain. However I see that a few nurseries sell both. Has anybody heard this before and if they are different what are the differences.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:41 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

I've grown both before and I can't tell any difference. That's why when I order them, I make sure and tag them right away. Otherwise they could get mixed up.
I get williams hybrid from sunshine horticulture and gran nain from agristarts. i wouldn't be surprised if they are both the same as dwarf cavendish.
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

They are very similar, but they are distinct cultivars. 'Williams' is a shorter tall Cavendish variety, and 'Gran Nain' is taller dwarf Cavendish. The fruit size and bunch size are very similar, and the fruit pretty much indistinguishable.

When they fruit, you can tell because 'Gran Nain' has persistent or semi-persistent male flowers and bracts, and 'Williams' has non-persistent male flowers and bracts.

'Gran Nain'




'Williams'
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Thanks Sandy. I am trying to import some new varieties into Bermuda in the form of tissue cultures. We have Gran Nain here but not Williams. I was hoping they were different, maybe someone will have some info on why they have different names or if there are subtle differences.
We have a ban on importing banana plants so my approach is convince the government to introduce new commercially viable varieties (for growers rather than nurseries). I am looking at others like the Raja Puri for its fast time to maturity, Ice Cream based on excellent taste and Williams. High yeild, wind resistant (small to medium height), disease free and great taste are my criteria. If you have any suggestions let me know.
Also I am glad you mentioned Sunshine and Agristarts as those are to two TC producers I have contacted already. They sound like good places to deal with.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Gabe that is good news. The pics are useful. I was hoping you might have some insight for me. Do the fruit taste similar? I have read Williams is very common in Australia as a commercial crop so it may work out for us in Bermuda. I take it the height of the Williams is similar to Gran Nain 7-8 ft? Also what would be the typical time to maturity?
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Old 09-02-2011, 04:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

So Gabe, then this one at Quail Gardens in Encinitas, CA, which is labelled "Williams Hybrid" is incorrectly labelled? Given that it has persistent bracts and male flowers.

[IMG][/IMG]

It wouldn't be the only one they have mislabelled and would explain why Pitangadiego says their Williams is different from the others he's grown.
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturabananas View Post
So Gabe, then this one at Quail Gardens in Encinitas, CA, which is labelled "Williams Hybrid" is incorrectly labelled? Given that it has persistent bracts and male flowers.

[IMG][/IMG]

It wouldn't be the only one they have mislabelled and would explain why Pitangadiego says their Williams is different from the others he's grown.
Oh great so maybe I still don't have the true Blue Java ?
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Old 09-02-2011, 06:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

No, that one they have right. Those bananas really are blue on their plants. Some of their others... well, nobody's perfect!
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Good information. I'm supposed to have a Williams so I guess I'll just wait till I get a bloom to see.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy0225 View Post
i wouldn't be surprised if they are both the same as dwarf cavendish.
Definitely not the same Sandy. Not just the flowers but the leaves, leaf spacing and height are much different then the dwarf. But cavendish just the same....
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

So how about the fruit? Which produces more and is there a difference in flavor? I am still waiting for my Gran Nain to flower and we don't have any Williams here ...yet.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
They are very similar, but they are distinct cultivars. 'Williams' is a shorter tall Cavendish variety, and 'Gran Nain' is taller dwarf Cavendish. The fruit size and bunch size are very similar, and the fruit pretty much indistinguishable.

When they fruit, you can tell because 'Gran Nain' has persistent or semi-persistent male flowers and bracts, and 'Williams' has non-persistent male flowers and bracts.

'Gran Nain'




'Williams'
I'm unfamiliar with the term "persistent male flowers." I tried googling and did not find anything helpful.

It seems like it should mean something like, "the male flowers persistently keep hanging on rather than quickly dropping off." But that definition would contradict your examples, since the plant you've labeled 'Williams' is the one that still has male flowers and the Gran Nains are the ones without them. [I'm calling the underdeveloped/aborted fruit hanging below the bunch in your 3rd pic the male flowers. Is this correct?]

So does "persistent male flowers" mean the opposite of what I guessed? What exactly does "persistent male flowers" mean in this context?

I'm asking this to anyone who knows, so if any of you know what persistent male flowers are and can point out how those pictures illustrate them, please help me out
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturabananas View Post
So Gabe, then this one at Quail Gardens in Encinitas, CA, which is labelled "Williams Hybrid" is incorrectly labelled? Given that it has persistent bracts and male flowers.

[IMG][/IMG]

It wouldn't be the only one they have mislabelled and would explain why Pitangadiego says their Williams is different from the others he's grown.
Isn't that more similar to Gabe's 3rd pic (Williams) than his 2nd (GN)?

What am I missing?
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFin View Post
Isn't that more similar to Gabe's 3rd pic (Williams) than his 2nd (GN)?

What am I missing?
To me it is most similar to the 1st one he had under Grain Nain, and yes, not at all like the 2nd.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:47 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFin View Post
I'm unfamiliar with the term "persistent male flowers." I tried googling and did not find anything helpful.

It seems like it should mean something like, "the male flowers persistently keep hanging on rather than quickly dropping off." But that definition would contradict your examples, since the plant you've labeled 'Williams' is the one that still has male flowers and the Gran Nains are the ones without them. [I'm calling the underdeveloped/aborted fruit hanging below the bunch in your 3rd pic the male flowers. Is this correct?]
Yes, that is basically correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFin View Post
So does "persistent male flowers" mean the opposite of what I guessed? What exactly does "persistent male flowers" mean in this context?
In the context of the photos above, you must look at the flowers directly above the male bud. The ones in the third photo of 'Williams' right after the last fruits are not really the male flowers, they are transitional and are often persistent on any cultivar.

If you take a look at the first photo, it clearly has totally persistent flowers all along the rachis. In the the second photo, the rachis is mostly clean, but right above the bud, there are dried persistent bracts and flowers, they have obviously been falling off, but they are still semi-persistent. Sometimes environmental conditions can change the degree to which the flower and bract persistence is expressed.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:50 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturabananas View Post
So Gabe, then this one at Quail Gardens in Encinitas, CA, which is labelled "Williams Hybrid" is incorrectly labelled? Given that it has persistent bracts and male flowers.

[IMG][/IMG]

It wouldn't be the only one they have mislabelled and would explain why Pitangadiego says their Williams is different from the others he's grown.
This one looks like 'Grand Nain' or 'Dwarf Cavendish', a little hard to tell for sure without seeing it up close. 'Grand Nain' is essentially a large 'Dwarf Cavendish', and 'Williams' a somewhat shorter tall Cavendish. If you translate directly from the French, "Grand Nain" means "giant dwarf".
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:11 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Yes, that is basically correct.



In the context of the photos above, you must look at the flowers directly above the male bud. The ones in the third photo of 'Williams' right after the last fruits are not really the male flowers, they are transitional and are often persistent on any cultivar.

If you take a look at the first photo, it clearly has totally persistent flowers all along the rachis. In the the second photo, the rachis is mostly clean, but right above the bud, there are dried persistent bracts and flowers, they have obviously been falling off, but they are still semi-persistent. Sometimes environmental conditions can change the degree to which the flower and bract persistence is expressed.
Thanks for the fast reply and good explanation. I see what you're talking about now.
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Old 02-14-2012, 11:54 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Williams Hybrid vs Gran Nain

I noticed in the Wiki that the 'Gran Nain' says the male flowers are non-persistent. That needs a-fixin, since it is opposite what Gabe says (and I ain't gonna contradict him )
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