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Old 11-27-2006, 03:37 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Hi WIM,
Sorry for the delay, I just got your post. Good thing, Mark's(Steelviper) on the ball though. The link he posted is the place I ordered my pads. The product comes from South Africa, so you might be able to get it from other sources in Europe, or even directly from South Africa.

I've had great success with these pads, particularly with older seeds that I have kept for over 2 years. Normally, if I drop several old seeds in a cup of water and drop to the bottom after a while, then there's a good chance that they're still viable. I then soak them for 24-72 hrs in the Cape Germination Primer. I had 5 miniature coconut palm seeds (not the cocos nociferous type) that were over 4 years old, and even those sprouted after 2 months.

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Chong,

What is "cape seed germination primer pad" ?
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Old 11-27-2006, 04:26 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

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Originally Posted by mrbungalow View Post
From what I have heard, Gibberilic Acid can also do harm if you use it in wrong amounts. Plants can grow thin and weakly in strange directions and forms. When GA was first observed in rice-plants, the asians referred to it as "Foolish rice".
I don't know how it affects bananas though. And I am all for experimenting.

As far as I am concerned with growing musa from seed, a large amount of seed and fluctuating temps seem to be fine to produce many plants.

Erlend
Erlend and Helen,
I don't know if I missed something here because somehow the issue of GA followed WIM's question on what the Cape Seed Germination Primer Pad was. I have some experience with GA in regards to plants and seed germination and I agree with Erland's observations/comments. That being said, if you were of the impression though, that the Cape pad has GA, it does not. The pad is soaked in a water that has been "smoked" from burning fynbos plant materials. It appears that seeds from plants of the fynbos family has much higher germination rate when soaked in this smoked water. Fynbos family include Proteas, Erikas, etc. So, it's all natural, if not outright organic.

I ordered several packets(1/4 tsp. to 1/3 tsp ea.) of GA over 10 years ago. I opened 1 and used some of it to germinate some very difficult seeds, e.g. cananga odorata. These seeds can take up to 7 months to sprout, according to growers. Well, nothing sprouted of the canangas (maybe because it's just difficult, though I've had some luck with the Cape pad). But a few of the others plants did sprout. Since I just dipped the half of the tip of a Q-Tip into the GA for each soaking, I still have some left over in that 1st packet. The rest are still unopend. Goes to show just how cautious I am regarding the use of GA.

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Old 11-27-2006, 04:45 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Oops! I'm so sorry, Erlend and Helen, for barging in, in re:GA. Indeed, I missed Helen's earlier post. I just went back the posts 1 by 1 and just now saw the earlier post. It's 1:35 AM here, and my eyes are not as good as they used to be to begin with.

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Old 11-27-2006, 04:59 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

The smoked water theory sounds interesting. Please keep us posted!
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Old 11-27-2006, 08:27 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Chong,

Have you experimented and had good results only with palms or also with Musa?

I am a carnivorous plant hobbyist, and it's common to use this smoke water to get certain seeds to germinate. But normally it only applies to seed from plants that grow in places where there are periodic fires (South-Africa, Australia). Does that happen also in area's where bananas grow? I'd say it's too wet and humid in their natural areas to have those periodic fires. But I probably have a very unfunded and mainly romantic idea of the locations where bananas naturally grow...

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I've had great success with these pads, particularly with older seeds that I have kept for over 2 years. Normally, if I drop several old seeds in a cup of water and drop to the bottom after a while, then there's a good chance that they're still viable. I then soak them for 24-72 hrs in the Cape Germination Primer. I had 5 miniature coconut palm seeds (not the cocos nociferous type) that were over 4 years old, and even those sprouted after 2 months.
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:54 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Hi WIM,
I've used the Germination Primer on other seeds, e.g. psidium guajava(guava), cananga odorata, averrhoa bilimbi, various syzygium species, etc. With psidium and bilimbi, I had excellent results last year. 90% of the psidium and 100% of the bilimbi sprouted. Last month, together with some bilimbi and cananga, I tried the 2 year old seeds of the M. Glauca, some rollinia, some chili peppers. I've never sprouted cananga before, but this time after 25 days, 2 out of 72 sprouted. You might think that that's a low number. But considering that normally, this seed has a 40-45% germination rate, and can take up to seven months to sprout, I think I'm doing pretty well. Just have to wait another 6 months. (LOL) The Rollinia is not showing any signs yet. The M. Glauca, 2 out of 8 came up as I reported earlier. The chili peppers, 30 of 48 are coming up and 1 or 2 more coming up daily. On the same tray as the chili's, I sowed some "fresh" Cuban Scotch Bonnet chili's that were not soaked in the primer pad. The Cubans aren't showing any signs yet.

You are correct in your observation in the natural habitat of the fynbos genera and the banana habitat. But there must be a self-preservating ingredient (DNA, enzyme, or chemical) in the burned plant material that triggers the fynbos family seeds to come to life when the surviving seeds, after a forest fire, subsequently gets rain. I believe the governement of South Africa was the one that did a study that resulted in the discovery and development of the seed primer idea. The study was originally to determine how to increase the germination rate of the fynbos family seeds in order to prevent them from extinction. Those seeds, without smoke primer treatment, have very, very low germination rate - close to none.

As it turns out, the same ingredient(s) in the fynbos smoke also breaks down the dormancy in other types of hard to germinate seeds, esp. if they've been kept for a long time. This is apparently true for hard to germinate banana and palm seeds. I've read that they work for heliconia and ginger type seeds as well.

Here are a couple of links that might be useful:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l4535q11q752r0w5/
http://finebushpeople.co.za/smoke_primer.html

I read several posts that "finebushpeople" are great to work with.

Hope this helps.

Chong


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Chong,

Have you experimented and had good results only with palms or also with Musa?

I am a carnivorous plant hobbyist, and it's common to use this smoke water to get certain seeds to germinate. But normally it only applies to seed from plants that grow in places where there are periodic fires (South-Africa, Australia). Does that happen also in area's where bananas grow? I'd say it's too wet and humid in their natural areas to have those periodic fires. But I probably have a very unfunded and mainly romantic idea of the locations where bananas naturally grow...
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Old 11-28-2006, 02:52 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Thankyou Chong for the links. I have now ordered from the Fine Bush People. I am looking forward to giving these smoke-mats a try!

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Old 11-28-2006, 03:06 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Wink Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Hi Chong. I've ordered a small amount of GA from seedman as well as the cape smoke discs in their current sale. I'll set up a small test with some seeds soaked in water, some in GA and some in smoke water.

Then, use the 30C-8C temperature fluctuation approach to see what happens.

Thanks for the info on how the smoke water works. So I guess popping seeds into my home smoker with hickory chips won't work then? ;-)

How long does the smoke water last once it's been mixed? Should it be used once and quickly, or can it be re-used?
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:24 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Drummer Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

So this is what the band "Deep Purple" mean with their classic song "Smoke on the water"...!
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:42 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

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So this is what the band "Deep Purple" mean with their classic song "Smoke on the water"...!

Makes sense!
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:51 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Does anyone know how you use these things? I am hoping dearly they come with instructions...
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Old 11-28-2006, 04:29 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Quote:
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Hi Chong. I've ordered a small amount of GA from seedman as well as the cape smoke discs in their current sale. I'll set up a small test with some seeds soaked in water, some in GA and some in smoke water.

Then, use the 30C-8C temperature fluctuation approach to see what happens.

Thanks for the info on how the smoke water works. So I guess popping seeds into my home smoker with hickory chips won't work then? ;-)

How long does the smoke water last once it's been mixed? Should it be used once and quickly, or can it be re-used?
Hi Helen,
From what I've read in the Rare Palms website comments pages regarding banana seeds, and in particular the M. Glauca, most of the posts favor temperature flactuations, although a few just set them at temperatures from 75F(24C) to 85F(29C). On my Glauca seeds, the t-stat of the bottom heater is set at 85F(29C).

If you read the article on the link I listed earlier (http://www.springerlink.com/content/l4535q11q752r0w5/), you will note that they did not use smoke from fynbos plant material. They suggest use of any dry or green plant material. Although, smoking seeds with hickory chips may coat them with oil, and thus, slow down or prevent water absobtion, when you soak them. Or, you just might have "popped"-whatever-seeds you're smokin'.

In terms on how long I've used them, I'm cheap. I use them over and over, from one batch of seeds to another, until the solution can no longer hold any seeds, i.e., without adding any more water, all in the same period. All this is done immediately after preparing the soaking solution. Although I don't see why you can't keep the leftover solution for a while in a bottle with an air tight lid. Just shake it vigorously before opening the bottle the next time you use it. This will dissolve any volatile compounds that may have evaporated during storage.

Talk about cheap, I forgot about the supplier at http://finebushpeople.co.za/smoke_primer.html charges less than half what Seedman charges. Although you'd have to buy at least 2 of them to break even in the US due to postage. However, Seedman sells them only in quantities of five anyway.
================

Erlend,

They come with instructions. And I think Deep Purple was refering to smoke from a different plant, not even the "Manila hemp" (M. Abaca).

Regards,
Chong

Last edited by chong : 11-28-2006 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Corrected typo
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Old 12-01-2006, 01:39 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Hey guys/ and gals,

i received some Musa acuminata Seeds today. About 30. I'm going to give it a shot and try to germinate them. Any tips on getting these little guys to germinate? I've germinated ginger and Heliconia seeds before, so im no stranger to hard to germinate seeds. What about fluctuating temps with these guys? Thanks.

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Old 12-02-2006, 08:46 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Try fluctuating temps. Works for most species of banana. But for some reason, these are a bit harder for me to germinate than others. I have not gotten high percentages with this one.

Musa acuminata has no more to do with "dwarf cavendish" than for example "gran naine" or "Williams hybrid". Musa Acuminata is a species, not a cultivar. And musa acuminata is one of the "Ingredients" in edible cultivars.

Seed-vendours calling musa acuminata "dwarf cavendish" are therefore wrong.
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Old 12-03-2006, 04:12 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Talking Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Well, after a few days of fluctuating temperatures, my first ever banana germination is happening!

They are monkey fingers, and 4 of them appear to have white growths emanating from the seeds.

I think I may have cracked it at last.....
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Old 12-03-2006, 06:30 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Hi Mustang,
concratulations on the germinations! For reference, seed being sold as 'Monkey Fingers' is most likely Musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa, it is much better to use this name because it is scientifically correct and also there is a edible cultivar with the name 'Monkey Fingers' (also know as 'Pisang Jari Buaya', there are a few froms in the group) and it would be bad to get these 2 different plants confused. The edible variety is descended rather closely from the wild species you have, however keeping thier names seperate is a very good practice.
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Old 12-03-2006, 08:13 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Back to basics... sorry if this has been covered before:

I understand that all Musa Acuminata types are inedible, is that correct? So what is the scienific name for the Cavendish bananas? Are all Cavendish types edible? Is Cavendish not a cultivar of Acuminata? (Joe is reeeeaally lost today) I'm not sure even is Cavendish is a species or cultivar...

As you all certainly noticed I'm quite confused with what is being said in Erlend and Gabe's recent posts.

Again, my apologies if this is covered elsewhere,

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Old 12-03-2006, 09:13 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

Here's a link that might be helpful, Joe.

http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Musa.html

When you get there, click "control F" and enter "cavendish" in the Find window.
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Old 12-04-2006, 04:03 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

You're right Chong. My musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa have germinated.
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Old 12-04-2006, 06:35 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Default Re: What seeds have germinated for you?

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You're right Chong. My musa acuminata ssp. microcarpa have germinated.
WOW! CONGRATULATIONS HELEN! You see? . . . . "Patience is a Virtue!" (I guess, so is Hope? . . .LOL)
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