the flying dutchman

I wonder if there is any place to find the correct scientific names of
bananas. I mean, is it the correct name if bioversity lists it or has it to be
published in a journal or scientific work. As many bananas have synoniems in
different countries how do we know wich name is scientificaly correct or
accepted.
Look at Musa Nanica and Nanicao 2 names for the same banana I assume and
both names used by official institutes(just google them). Then it comes out it
is actual some kind of Giant cavendish, or according to Bioversity(Musa AAA Cavendish cv 'Nanica') so now we have 4 names for the same banana.
Is musa Siam Ruby an unofficial banana?
I assume scientists use the correct names and all the other names for the
same banana are synoniems but how do they know?
What is the reference???



Ron

Gabe15

Only wild species have official names. For all of the edible types, there is no entity that defines what is "correct", they are not published and documented like wild plants are. Since many of the same varieties grow in many parts of the world with different languages, there are many different names for each variety. The best way to keep track of the edible cultivars is to keep lists of synonyms and descriptors, which is precisely what Bioversity Intl.'s MGIS database is working on. And as for ornamental varieties (that are not pure wild species), they will most likely never have that kind of work done with them because edible bananas take the research priority.

So the answer the question directly, for edible banana names, nothing makes them official. There are just those that are more widely used and associated with specific varieties in different regions.

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Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.

the flying dutchman

Thanks Gabe, that is a clear answer.




Ron

JoeReal

There are many ways the above general statements could be wrong.
Unless of course if Gabe is defined as the official namer...

One big clue to the mistake is again the definition of what is edible.

JoeReal

I have mentioned in earlier posts as to the reasons why banana naming became chaotic tin a way similar to citruses. It blurs the definition of what a species supposedly is, especially when you have complex hybrids of more than one ploidy level and whose major means of natural propagation is asexual (bananas) or nucellar (citruses).

Fortunately with citruses, research money have been well spent to sort out major species parentage of various cultivars, and I was surprised that there's only three major species and their hybrids that formed most of todays accepted cultivars. Lemons and grapefruits for example are not pure species but hybrids. Today's wrong species name of these supposedly distinct species has stuck with us and will be so for ages.

Wish they could do genetic analysis of different banana cultivars. Especially when the west panicked in several reports that there is only one dessert banana type in the stores! Yes, there is only one dessert cavendish type exported to the west, and we know very well there are more than 1,000 species that are literally edible.

the flying dutchman

Unless of course if Gabe is defined as the official namer...


He is for Bananas.org Joe and I follow his advices about how to name
things and also how to add and name the different bananas in the WIKI.
Ofcourse anyone is free to discuss this and give his/her opinion and to tell us
if we make mistakes, but at the end, at least for bananas.org we follow
Gabes instructions.



Ron

Lard Greystoke

Lard Greystoke replies:

The traditional method for initial classification of any organism is for a single individual, the TYPE SPECIMEN, to be selected, labelled and preserved. In the case of a plant, a herbarium specimen containing as much as practical of leaves, flower and fruit is obtained along with information regarding time and place of collection. The type specimen is then examined by a (presumably) qualified researcher with regard to its place within the taxonomic framework. A binomial name is then issued. If two specimens of the same species are obtained and studied by different individuals, the binomial first published in a recognized journal is recognized as the "official" form, and the specimen upon which the description is based is the type specimen. The ICBN (International Code of Botanical Nomenclature) is the accepted forum for defining processes and hammering out differences.

The concept of the "type specimen" was reached at a time when species were thought to be immutable, before the idea of evolution and before the importance of variability was understood. It is no longer thought that any individual can represent the range of variation of a whole species, and therefore an "official name" which applies perfectly well to one specimen pressed between glass plates applies with increasing ambiguity to large and varied populations, isolated populations, and hybrids. It is not always possible to clearly distinguish species, subspecies, races, hybrids, etc.

Since scientific names can be regulated by the international rules of nomenclature, they will be the same in all countries. Common names are not subject to any formal regulation.

One advantage of identifying bananas is that most cultivated forms are asexually reproduced, i.e. clones very limited in variation. The lack of variation means that the name of a clone should apply pretty exactly to any member of that clone without the ambiguity you can find in members of wild populations.

microfarmer

I love it when it gets technical...

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My new hero...

Gabe15

Although this is true for wild species (and many cultivated plants as well), it does not really apply to bananas. Bananas are grouped by their genetic composition, those are fairly well kept and there has been lots of work in DNA analysis and grouping. Within each group there are multiple varieties, all very similar, but in someway different, and the names for these clones vary with region, but important part is knowing what group it is in. They are characterized by a really long list of things that is standardized and may will apply to any banana variety. The naming is different from other plants and made especially for bananas (similar naming systems may have been applied to other plants, but I have not seen it). The way bananas are named is (for example, I will use Dwarf Cavendish) Musa (AAA Group(you may designate Cavendish as well)) 'Dwarf Cavendish'. That is the most official way to name a banana, however the last part will change by region, the important part is that you have the correct genome (AA,AAA, AAB, ABB, AAAB, AABB, ABBB.... there are a few more random ones as well), and if you want to get specific, you can name the subgroup within the genome. This method was developed especially for edible bananas since it was realized they are not species, they are a myriad of combination between interspecific hybrids, intersubspecific hybrids, mutations, hybrids between wild plants and previously formed cultivated varieties. So one of the easiest ways to make any sense out of names was to state its genetic composition and clone name in lieu of classic latin binomials.

__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.