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natedogg1026 07-20-2008 10:49 PM

Water suckers
 
Give me your take on water suckers. Do you chop em off or let em grow. Do you think there is a big difference in water as apposed to a sword. I've always just saved all the pups I can for me or to give away. I've never deliberately chopped one back but maybe I should. Do you think it really slows mama's growth rate? What's your thoughts?-Thanx N advance-Nate:03:

Richard 07-20-2008 11:01 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
What do they look like?

:pics: :D

natedogg1026 07-20-2008 11:05 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I was just reading where they said to cut em off. I know what they look like, just wanna know if I should start choppin em off and not waste my time with them. Thanx-Nate

austinl01 07-20-2008 11:06 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I wonder what the difference is between a water sucker and sword sucker? A pic showing the two would be very helpful for beginners learning about bananas.

natedogg1026 07-20-2008 11:14 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
A water sucker looks more like a midget plant and is said to be a small fruit bearer and a weak plant. A sword sucker has thin pointy leaves and is said to be what you should save for propagation or as a replacement for mom.

pitangadiego 07-20-2008 11:20 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
They tend to grow well and look nice as small plants because they get true leaves earlier than the sword suckers, but have less well developed root systems and seem to lack vigor throughout their life cycle, in my experience. Remove them and use as ornamentals, but not for fruit production. These are both about 6-8" tall - one obviously looks like a little banana plant (water sucker), and the other will be much taller before it has any true leaves (sword).


thebes11 07-21-2008 07:31 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks for the pics! Now I know all the pups around my plants are swords and should be good for fruit. Now the dilemma of letting them just grow naturally and creating a thick banana patch, or relocating them to different places.

snc 07-22-2008 02:31 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
great question,

I was getting ready to discard the swords on my mysores, saba and basjoos. guess will wait till they are decent height and transplant.

do the suckers hinder the moms growth?

Dean W. 07-22-2008 03:20 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Great thread, I would like to follow it.

heynow 07-22-2008 05:30 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Praying Hands sword suckers:02::woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner:

Dean W. 07-22-2008 05:33 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Awsome pups!:woohoonaner:

heynow 07-22-2008 05:42 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Praying Hands sword suckers:02::woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner:

austinl01 07-22-2008 05:55 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks for the pictures, guys. That really helps distinguish between the two.

mskitty38583 07-22-2008 08:11 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by heynow (Post 45824)
Praying Hands sword suckers:02::woohoonaner::woohoonaner::woohoonaner:

what no corona? LOL!
nice looking nanas!

pitangadiego 07-26-2008 11:51 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Here is an example of the huge difference in root development and corm size between water and sword suckers. Both are Goldfinger pups removed at the same time from the same parent plant.


Dean W. 07-26-2008 11:57 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks for posting that.

Dean W. 07-26-2008 11:59 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Is it possible to grow water suckers and have them form sword suckers?

bencelest 07-27-2008 06:50 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Good question Dean. My dwarf Cav seems like all it gives are water suckers.

austinl01 07-27-2008 07:08 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Wow, the difference is amazing. That picture really shows it all very well. Water suckers must be so weak.

natedogg1026 07-27-2008 01:29 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Excellent pics Pitanga! Thanx for illustrating what I was trying to explain.

Taylor 07-27-2008 01:44 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
One of my Orinoco sends out all sword. The other (the mother died) sends out all water suckers. The thing is...why? I think with a healthy mom, the pups can be sent out with more vigor because of a healthy root system of the mom and lots of solar intake. Make sense?

natedogg1026 07-27-2008 01:59 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Yea it does. Can't explain that T.

MediaHound 08-03-2008 04:32 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Here's a couple pictures I just took of one sword pup and two water suckers on a stand of Jamaican Red that I have.
The water suckers are closer to where the last pseudostem was to bloom. I imagine they are attached to the remains of that pseudostem rather than this mother pseudostem that persists.





It's a strange angle to take a picture from, so you can't really tell, but the water suckers, or "umbrella pups", are only perhaps 8" tall while the sword is a couple feet already and still without a wide leaf.

Simply Bananas 08-03-2008 05:49 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I guess they are called 'water' suckers for a reason.
Broad leaves have more surface area transpire more water, thus using(sucking) more water.

JCDerrick 09-15-2008 10:01 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
This thread has really taught me a lot about this subject, and the photo by pitangadiego was fantastic (and amazing to see the difference).

So I set out to try and ID my sword versus water suckers. And so far I'm having more trouble than I expected with IDing the sword leaves on all of my Basjoo; the Cavendish bananas are much easier. Some pups on the Basjoo are what appear to be obvious sword suckers, but others - like in this photo below - well I have no idea which are which. They are all so close to the parent they look like water suckers, but some resemble the sword leaves. What's the better indicated in basjoo? The shape of the leaves or of the p-stem itself? Help!


JCDerrick 09-15-2008 10:06 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Here's another, circled in red. At first glance I'd say it's sword. But I can't tell with the Basjoo pups.


bepah 09-15-2008 10:07 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
It seems to me that the 'water suckers' are suffering from a lack of nutrition rather than some aberrant behavior of the mother plant. I would guess that if the NPK balance was adjusted to enhance root development that the 'water sucker' problem would disappear.

For those of you who get them, how often do you fertilize, feed? Maybe there is a clue there. If you feed, what do you feed? If it is strictly a high nitrogen application, it makes sense (to me at least) that water suckers would be the result.

Just some thoughts.....

Bob 09-15-2008 11:45 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Big thanks to all who posted here and especially the pics. Pitangadiego's were especially helpfull since they are showing the roots. Since I'm somewhat new at this I'd have assumed the water suckers were the better candidates for propagation. Thanks again to all.

momoese 09-15-2008 12:09 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
My water suckers generally emerge a greater distance from the mother than the sword pups, and like Jarred, I believe they may be coming from a plant that was cut down long time ago, not the current mother plant. I have a Pisang Klotek water sucker right now that's about 2 feet from the mother. It must be growing from something I cut down long ago. Does anyone get them on first generation plants? I don't think I have.

MSmith 05-04-2009 09:24 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I suppose there is no way to know if that plant your buying from the store is a sword or water unless they mark the container?

sunfish 05-04-2009 11:53 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Is it possible water suckers are developing of the root system,runners,and sword pups develop right off the corm.

Magilla Gorilla 05-04-2009 11:58 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by natedogg1026 (Post 46540)
Excellent pics Pitanga! Thanx for illustrating what I was trying to explain.

Great thread. I thought I was the only one confused! This is just one example of how cool the forum is!

Thank you!

sunfish 05-05-2009 12:26 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Sometimes suckers from old, deteriorating corms have broad leaves from the outset. These are called "water" suckers, are insubstantial, with very little vigor, and are not desirable propagating material. "

ArchAngeL01 05-07-2009 09:36 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
so whats a water sucker? the ones that grow off the mother corm? or the ones that shoot up from the roots and underground corm?

Jack Daw 05-09-2009 08:53 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
I was just curious, if I got a water sucker from my friend and wanted to have a banana plant, that would be primarily supposed just to give fruit...
Could I do it so:
Have the water pup from a little bit, then, if it has sword pups, remove sword pup to another pot/ground and let it grow...

Water pups can have sword pups, right?
Thanks...

sunfish 05-09-2009 10:08 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
From what I have read a water sucker will fruit. The thing with sward pups is they grow faster and will give a bigger bunch than water suckers. I don't see why a water sucker would not get sward pups. All the tc plants have broad leaves hardly any corm and they fruit and make sword suckers.

Jack Daw 05-09-2009 10:10 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sunfish (Post 74672)
From what I have read a water sucker will fruit. The thing with sward pups is they grow faster and will give a bigger bunch than water suckers. I don't see why a water sucker would not get sward pups. All the tc plants have broad leaves hardly any corm and they fruit and make sword suckers.

Thought so, just wanted to make sure. Thanks to you, pal...

Tog Tan 05-09-2009 11:37 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Layman's theory again; as most of these water suckers are from split or pieces of corms, I guess they tend to generate biggish leaves for photosynthesis from the start as an instinct to survival being not fed from the mother plant.

I have the bad habit of picking up these fellas as they look cute like a lil 'naner. I can always get it here after a fruiting plant has been cut off and no one cares for them. When I grow them, they will be very slow to start off. However once they have developed a good root system and are able to fend for themselves and with me giving them fert, they will grow like an ordinary pup. So far over here, it takes as least 7 mths or so for them to get the strength to grow well. In the meantime, they do pup like any normal plant after the 5 mth. I have yet to fruit any, but I let will let you guys know when they do.

I picked this ipod size corm flake which was embedded in about 2inches of soil. That was 3 weeks ago and now it is has put out many new leaves already. This is a DC aka Pisang Serendah.

Worm_Farmer 05-09-2009 04:14 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I think we should make this a sticky.

alexizhere19 06-13-2009 11:08 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
second the sticky

Gabe15 06-13-2009 11:47 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sunfish (Post 73961)
Is it possible water suckers are developing of the root system,runners,and sword pups develop right off the corm.

Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

proletariatcsp 06-14-2009 12:12 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
I third the sticky.


I have a problem with the swords theories. The pictures seem to tell all, but I wonder if there is an exception to the rules now and again?

My first Ice Cream pup sprang out 6" in circumference and grew to over 7ft in just four months. I would say its a good sucker, but also because its 4th leaf was its first true one.

But then came the second pup, it emerged slower than the previous and its second leaf was its first true. Normally, my sword pups grow 4-5 sword leaves before the full leaf, so I thought this one was a water. But now it is already over 4ft tall and very thick.

The other questionable trait is in regard to the distance from the parent plant. I have a pup coming up now that is farthest from the parent by about 2ft. Its coming off the parent plant, I'm sure, but its 8" tall and still has no leaf. It is also twice the diameter of any pup that's grown before it.

I haven't given my nanner any fertilizer since late Feb or early March. That was an all purpose slow-release granular 8-4-8. I have put down sulfur and sprayed foliar nutritional w/ minors only. There are seven pups now and I believe they are all swords except, perhaps, the one I mentioned above.

Thanks for the thread and the great info!

proletariatcsp 06-14-2009 12:15 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15 (Post 79971)
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

Thanks for this excellent update Gabe! I thought so. I have watched a group of nanners for about a year now. I dont know what they are but at the time I first started watching them, there were about 10 plants on one mat. Last summer, there were 3 huge bunches growing at the same time. They eventually ripened but unfortunately the wind and the birds destroyed them. I think depending on the species, that even many pseudos on one mat can still produce large bunches?

alexizhere19 06-14-2009 10:07 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks for the sticky Gabe.

Alex

alexizhere19 06-24-2009 12:51 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I just had a basjoo throw a sword sucker from a old corm. no leaves or any p-stem, it has produced water suckers like crazy off it but all of sudden here comes this nice looking sword sucker. Amazing.

alex

ewitte 07-03-2009 04:57 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15 (Post 79971)
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

I think he means pulling the nutrients off the mother corm opposed to developing much on its own.

sirmoebly 07-11-2009 07:53 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
[IMG][/IMG]

This was one of three water suckers stuck together I saved. It was a little chuck of corm about the size of a dime with little plants growing off of it. Now look at it after 5 months, the other 2 are in pots and growing fine.(sdc)

[IMG][/IMG]

Now these are dc swords that are almost 2 months old and growing fast. I think both grow good. I have a monster corm of a Orinoco with a sword and it's as big as my two year old dc.... (mother corm makes a difference)

TommyMacLuckie 08-01-2009 09:04 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
For those of you who do not have the DVD they do show the difference but it's somewhat quick. This thread is considerably more informative in that, well, like the one of the two different suckers on the pavement, I can take my time to look and see the obviousness.

It's quite funny in a way. I've only ever removed suckers, period, that were in the way of something (path, building). I've often seen the sword suckers and thought that they were just some bizarreness going on.

Now I know the difference.

I can't remember if I've removed water suckers and planted them elsewhere. I'm quite sure I have. They all have grown the same as any other bananas.

But now that I know I will choose otherwise and put the water suckers on the periphery of the yard and swords where I want the best plants.

Also, just to be sure, is this the case for all suckering bananas or just the ones that make edible fruit? Anyone know?

Great thread. I swear I learn something here every day. Like how I thought, ha ha, Orinoco were possibly and probably cavendish ha ha ha ha....

TommyMacLuckie 08-01-2009 11:07 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Took a short walk and noticed that all of the suckers on my bananas (ornata, bordelon, saba and orinoco - the zebrina doesn't have any yet) are all sword suckers.

Funny what a little bit of knowledge can do eh?! Now I know what to look for. And I guess I answered my own question of do they all do that? I'm leaning on the side of yes. Then I thought well why wouldn't they? Hey, you never know.

Ironically, in Bananas You Can Grow, they do talk about sword and water suckers but there is no visible example. So if you don't know what to look for...and this thread certainly helped with that, along with the DVD.

So I'll probably set up a run of water suckers eventually and plant the sword suckers, if I do remove them, where I want nice plants. This should eventually be an interesting experiment.

figafita 08-10-2009 05:36 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.


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