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-   -   Water suckers (http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suckers-5285.html)

Gabe15 06-13-2009 11:47 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sunfish (Post 73961)
Is it possible water suckers are developing of the root system,runners,and sword pups develop right off the corm.

Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

proletariatcsp 06-14-2009 12:12 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
I third the sticky.


I have a problem with the swords theories. The pictures seem to tell all, but I wonder if there is an exception to the rules now and again?

My first Ice Cream pup sprang out 6" in circumference and grew to over 7ft in just four months. I would say its a good sucker, but also because its 4th leaf was its first true one.

But then came the second pup, it emerged slower than the previous and its second leaf was its first true. Normally, my sword pups grow 4-5 sword leaves before the full leaf, so I thought this one was a water. But now it is already over 4ft tall and very thick.

The other questionable trait is in regard to the distance from the parent plant. I have a pup coming up now that is farthest from the parent by about 2ft. Its coming off the parent plant, I'm sure, but its 8" tall and still has no leaf. It is also twice the diameter of any pup that's grown before it.

I haven't given my nanner any fertilizer since late Feb or early March. That was an all purpose slow-release granular 8-4-8. I have put down sulfur and sprayed foliar nutritional w/ minors only. There are seven pups now and I believe they are all swords except, perhaps, the one I mentioned above.

Thanks for the thread and the great info!

proletariatcsp 06-14-2009 12:15 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15 (Post 79971)
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

As Tog pointed out, water suckers form from bits of corm and from chopped down plants because the shoots need to immediately start photosynthesizing themselves instead of acquiring photosynthate from the rest of the plant which has leaves. Water suckers can also form from old established mats, I suppose they occur from a complex coincidence of certain anatomical and environmental circumstances (such as how old the corm section its coming off of is, or how exposed to the sun it is etc..)

Keep in mind that whether or not a sucker is sword or water, they are genetically identical and one is not going to be overall better than another, there just may be some growth differences initially when young. Some studies have found differences in the first fruit bunch, and some have found none, I think it really depends on cultivar and environment, as do most results of this sort. TC plants are the ultimate water suckers, and they grow up just fine, in some cases outgrowing field separated suckers initially, but again, after the first generation is doesn't matter how they plant was propagated.

Thanks for this excellent update Gabe! I thought so. I have watched a group of nanners for about a year now. I dont know what they are but at the time I first started watching them, there were about 10 plants on one mat. Last summer, there were 3 huge bunches growing at the same time. They eventually ripened but unfortunately the wind and the birds destroyed them. I think depending on the species, that even many pseudos on one mat can still produce large bunches?

alexizhere19 06-14-2009 10:07 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks for the sticky Gabe.

Alex

alexizhere19 06-24-2009 12:51 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
I just had a basjoo throw a sword sucker from a old corm. no leaves or any p-stem, it has produced water suckers like crazy off it but all of sudden here comes this nice looking sword sucker. Amazing.

alex

ewitte 07-03-2009 04:57 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15 (Post 79971)
Roots never form suckers, they only come from the corm.

I think he means pulling the nutrients off the mother corm opposed to developing much on its own.

sirmoebly 07-11-2009 07:53 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
[IMG][/IMG]

This was one of three water suckers stuck together I saved. It was a little chuck of corm about the size of a dime with little plants growing off of it. Now look at it after 5 months, the other 2 are in pots and growing fine.(sdc)

[IMG][/IMG]

Now these are dc swords that are almost 2 months old and growing fast. I think both grow good. I have a monster corm of a Orinoco with a sword and it's as big as my two year old dc.... (mother corm makes a difference)

TommyMacLuckie 08-01-2009 09:04 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
For those of you who do not have the DVD they do show the difference but it's somewhat quick. This thread is considerably more informative in that, well, like the one of the two different suckers on the pavement, I can take my time to look and see the obviousness.

It's quite funny in a way. I've only ever removed suckers, period, that were in the way of something (path, building). I've often seen the sword suckers and thought that they were just some bizarreness going on.

Now I know the difference.

I can't remember if I've removed water suckers and planted them elsewhere. I'm quite sure I have. They all have grown the same as any other bananas.

But now that I know I will choose otherwise and put the water suckers on the periphery of the yard and swords where I want the best plants.

Also, just to be sure, is this the case for all suckering bananas or just the ones that make edible fruit? Anyone know?

Great thread. I swear I learn something here every day. Like how I thought, ha ha, Orinoco were possibly and probably cavendish ha ha ha ha....

TommyMacLuckie 08-01-2009 11:07 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Took a short walk and noticed that all of the suckers on my bananas (ornata, bordelon, saba and orinoco - the zebrina doesn't have any yet) are all sword suckers.

Funny what a little bit of knowledge can do eh?! Now I know what to look for. And I guess I answered my own question of do they all do that? I'm leaning on the side of yes. Then I thought well why wouldn't they? Hey, you never know.

Ironically, in Bananas You Can Grow, they do talk about sword and water suckers but there is no visible example. So if you don't know what to look for...and this thread certainly helped with that, along with the DVD.

So I'll probably set up a run of water suckers eventually and plant the sword suckers, if I do remove them, where I want nice plants. This should eventually be an interesting experiment.

figafita 08-10-2009 05:36 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.

Jack Daw 08-10-2009 05:59 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by figafita (Post 90215)
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.

It was on page 1 of this thread. ;)
http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suck...html#post46506

adrift 08-10-2009 06:04 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by figafita (Post 90215)
Can somebody post a picture of a water sucker and a sword one for new folks to see ?
Thanks.

You can look in my gallery, there are photos of both there.

or

You can see them posted in the other sucker thread: http://www.bananas.org/f311/removing...kers-8716.html

adrift 08-10-2009 06:06 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Daw (Post 90226)
It was on page 1 of this thread. ;)
http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suck...html#post46506

Or that!

TommyMacLuckie 08-12-2009 10:59 AM

Re: Water suckers
 
Since things are backwards here it's not on page one but the highest number being the 'first' page, so it's the last page.

Why is that anyway? That's very bizarre and confusing sometimes.

Jack Daw 08-12-2009 03:00 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyMacLuckie (Post 90719)
Since things are backwards here it's not on page one but the highest number being the 'first' page, so it's the last page.

Why is that anyway? That's very bizarre and confusing sometimes.

You know that you can set it to standard, first post fist page view? ;)

hilashes 08-17-2009 11:11 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thanks everyone for their input in this thread; amazing and informative! I can't believe how much I've learned in the last year on this forum and now I even know how to set first post first page view...thanks Jack! lol


Heidi :bananas_b

Richard 08-17-2009 11:54 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Water suckers and sword suckers: after transplanting into a 5+ gallon pots and feeding them through irrigation for 3 months ... mine are indistiguishable. I am using 100ppm nitrogen, 25ppm phosphate, and 150ppm potash.

cvining 10-07-2009 10:15 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Thank you for the post in this thread, they are very helpful.

fredos417 10-09-2009 10:18 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
Why do Banana Water Suckers Lack Vigor?

The key word of interest here is "vigor."

Is a sucker from a water sucker always a water sucker? Is a meristem clone from a sword / water sucker always a sword / water sucker? Does musa coccinea which naturally clumps like a canna have sword and water suckers?

From what I understand...

Water suckers have less vigor because they have a much smaller root system. Genetically, water suckers and sword leaf suckers are the same. Water suckers are generally suckers formed from the root system of a harvested or dead trunk. Sword leaf suckers are formed from the root system of an actively growing mother trunk. The mother trunk is able to supply the baby sucker with lots more energy that is used to grow a substantial root system.

A water sucker can be used to grow a perfectly normal plant, but a sword leaf sucker just has a big head start. Both will result in the same plant eventually. Sword leaf suckers are strongly preferred in commercial production because they establish much faster and much more reliably.

I don't know specifically about musa coccinea suckers, but don't see any reason they would be significantly different than

TommyMacLuckie 10-12-2009 01:07 PM

Re: Water suckers
 
You mean, by making it work differently, if there are three pages then page 3 is the most recent? I'll have to figure that one out.

Water suckers. Well, I think in the interest of growing, and we all love our bananas to grow as fast as possible, the sword suckers are the ones to put where you really want something.

Alas, I have transplanted both. There is a difference for quite some time. The swords don't tend to bunch their fronds, they stay more spread out space wise on the p-stem. However, what's funny about the water suckers is they are, for lack of a better word, cute. They do grow a lot slower. I'm going to experiment with both though (shade, half sun and full sun) and will have more conclusive results by May or something of Twenty Ten. I'm sure this thread will still be going and if not, well, I'll do something.


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