Re: Water suckers
 

It was on page 1 of this thread. ;)
http://www.bananas.org/f2/water-suck...html#post46506

Re: Water suckers
 

You can look in my gallery, there are photos of both there.

or

You can see them posted in the other sucker thread: http://www.bananas.org/f311/removing...kers-8716.html

Re: Water suckers
 

Or that!

Re: Water suckers
 

Since things are backwards here it's not on page one but the highest number being the 'first' page, so it's the last page.

Why is that anyway? That's very bizarre and confusing sometimes.

Re: Water suckers
 

You know that you can set it to standard, first post fist page view? ;)

Re: Water suckers
 

Thanks everyone for their input in this thread; amazing and informative! I can't believe how much I've learned in the last year on this forum and now I even know how to set first post first page view...thanks Jack! lol


Heidi :bananas_b

Re: Water suckers
 

Water suckers and sword suckers: after transplanting into a 5+ gallon pots and feeding them through irrigation for 3 months ... mine are indistiguishable. I am using 100ppm nitrogen, 25ppm phosphate, and 150ppm potash.

Re: Water suckers
 

Thank you for the post in this thread, they are very helpful.

Re: Water suckers
 

Why do Banana Water Suckers Lack Vigor?

The key word of interest here is "vigor."

Is a sucker from a water sucker always a water sucker? Is a meristem clone from a sword / water sucker always a sword / water sucker? Does musa coccinea which naturally clumps like a canna have sword and water suckers?

From what I understand...

Water suckers have less vigor because they have a much smaller root system. Genetically, water suckers and sword leaf suckers are the same. Water suckers are generally suckers formed from the root system of a harvested or dead trunk. Sword leaf suckers are formed from the root system of an actively growing mother trunk. The mother trunk is able to supply the baby sucker with lots more energy that is used to grow a substantial root system.

A water sucker can be used to grow a perfectly normal plant, but a sword leaf sucker just has a big head start. Both will result in the same plant eventually. Sword leaf suckers are strongly preferred in commercial production because they establish much faster and much more reliably.

I don't know specifically about musa coccinea suckers, but don't see any reason they would be significantly different than

Re: Water suckers
 

You mean, by making it work differently, if there are three pages then page 3 is the most recent? I'll have to figure that one out.

Water suckers. Well, I think in the interest of growing, and we all love our bananas to grow as fast as possible, the sword suckers are the ones to put where you really want something.

Alas, I have transplanted both. There is a difference for quite some time. The swords don't tend to bunch their fronds, they stay more spread out space wise on the p-stem. However, what's funny about the water suckers is they are, for lack of a better word, cute. They do grow a lot slower. I'm going to experiment with both though (shade, half sun and full sun) and will have more conclusive results by May or something of Twenty Ten. I'm sure this thread will still be going and if not, well, I'll do something.

Re: Water suckers
 

I am wondering if some soil or weakened condition causes them to appear to begin with.
I'd be curious how the water suckers do if you plant them in ideal conditions with plenty good soil and fertilizer if they then regain whatever vigor was lost and become just as productive as swords..

Re: Water suckers
 

I've been pulling water suckers out, just popping them out with my hand, no shovel, and have planted several just to see what they'll do. I've got sword suckers all over the place and I've been moving some of those lately at various jobs.

Re: Water suckers
 

here's my update..... all three came from michael andrew.... three little & can't say enough little plants the size of a dime.... on one chuck of growth.... Before I brought them in the house I chop the tops off, what you see is new growth... Michael if your reading I have a tall orinoco with your name on it........ Can't say enough of nice people on the org......... thank you all......SDC...........are awesome........

[IMG][/IMG]

Re: Water suckers
 

It's gotten quite easy to tell them apart as mature plants - swords and waters. All of the water suckers that have grown are quite thin, small and grow rather slow. They work fine as far as wanting to have something green, which is all I've kept them for in certain places where I want something to not get too tall quickly.

Re: Water suckers
 

Jeff, my experience here is that tho the water sucker itself is a very dwarf plant and won't do what a sword will do at maturity, the babies that appear around the parent water sucker do a lot better provided that the original was planted deep enough.

A water sucker is nothing more than a pup that has developed close to the soil surface and reaches the light when it isn't quite ready to start growing up. The swords pop out of the corm at least 6 inches below the soil surface. The deeper the better.

I like the idea of planting the little tykes into a pot and keeping them as potted little things until they have put out at least 10 leaves then taking them out of the pot and putting them in ground.

Aloha to all from the 'Big Island' of Hawai'i.

Kele

PS - Tho the water sucker won't be producing and looking like a sword at first, its followers/ratoons, will be normal sized and produce a normal weight bunch for that particular variety.

Re: Water suckers
 

very informational thread. thanks for posting pics for the newbies.

Re: Water suckers
 

Water sucker and sword growing side by side

Re: Water suckers
 

I am a plant hog, so I keep all bananas. LOL

Re: Water suckers
 

Very interesting discussion! I got ALL excited about seeing pups, completely forgetting that there are different kinds of pups.... (the only pupping bananas I have are basjoos, I'm told maureliis don't pup unless you "force" them...which I don't plan on!)

So, looking at my pics....I have 5 pups now (from two plants) and the only two that have leaves now, looks like they're water suckers. The first one is obvious, the other one only has one little leaf, but certainly doesn't look like a sword.

http://www.bananas.org/f2/more-pups-14304.html

But since I am growing these strictly for ornamental value...am I correct in assuming that I shouldn't worry too much about pulling the water suckers out, unless I'm getting more than I'd like? Or, can they damage my (young, still growing) parent plant, so should I consider trying to get them potted while still small, or would there not be enough of a root system there?

Completely forgot about the different kinds of pups, until I read this....now I'll be watching them to see what the rest turn out to be.

Re: Water suckers
 

Maybe it's best to wait till there bigger

Re: Water suckers
 

I just know that when my plants get water suckers I'm going to get rid of them.

Re: Water suckers
 

On my Goldfinger mat the third and fourth year old main pstem corms are producing water suckers. I dig them out for the compost pile. Waste of time to pot them.

Re: Water suckers
 

If the sheer number of pups leads to your having too many of them, then, by all means, don't keep them. But if that doesn't matter and you are like me..the thicker the planting the better I like it as such a 'wall' makes for a good windbreak plus if you have neighbors who are noisy, it will cut down that noise and provide some see-through-proof privacy! Living in town now on a small houselot instead of on 20 acres makes it necessary to not be able to see adjoining homes. Don't get me wrong. I have great neighbors but I only want to see them when I WANT to see them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrailGaiter (Post 172085) Very interesting discussion! I got ALL excited about seeing pups, completely forgetting that there are different kinds of pups.... (the only pupping bananas I have are basjoos, I'm told maureliis don't pup unless you "force" them...which I don't plan on!) So, looking at my pics....I have 5 pups now (from two plants) and the only two that have leaves now, looks like they're water suckers. The first one is obvious, the other one only has one little leaf, but certainly doesn't look like a sword. http://www.bananas.org/f2/more-pups-14304.html But since I am growing these strictly for ornamental value...am I correct in assuming that I shouldn't worry too much about pulling the water suckers out, unless I'm getting more than I'd like? Or, can they damage my (young, still growing) parent plant, so should I consider trying to get them potted while still small, or would there not be enough of a root system there? Completely forgot about the different kinds of pups, until I read this....now I'll be watching them to see what the rest turn out to be.

Re: Water suckers
 

I have just planted a Dwarf Cavendish water sucker in what one would describe as ideal conditions just outside my bedroom window. The leaves are laden with purple splotches and the plant is barely 8 inches in height. It will grow slowly, bear a relatively small bunch of fruit but the ratoons will be quite normal. I'll take a pic of it and put it into my own gallery here shortly.

Re: Water suckers
 

Nate, a great question. I haven't read any of the replies yet but I've often wondered the same thing. I'll follow this thread and probably learn a lot. Thanks again for this question.

Re: Water suckers
 

May you could sell or give away those pups on BANANAS.

Re: Water suckers
 

I don't know how I commented on a post from 2008, but I'm guilty. Anyway, it's a good post and I learned from it so maybe someone else will also.

Re: Water suckers
 

Here are 3 pups I removed from my original A'e a'e. The first two were sword suckers, and the last is a water sucker. The water sucker happens to have more green, which might account for why it is the most healthy of the 3 about 6 months after being removed from the mother plant.

Pup 3, sword sucker.

Pup 2, sword sucker.

Pup 3, water sucker. Picture doesn't do it justice, looks the most healthy in person. Looks smaller here given the angle of the picture.

For my dwarf Brazillians and most other that I have too many of, I just break off the water suckers. But with the A'e a'e there was no way I was going to give up when it had such obviously variegated young leaves. The water sucker is already creating pups of its own, while the two sword suckers have not yet.

Re: Water suckers
 

A beautiful plant to say the least! I'd give most anything to have one like it!

Re: Water suckers
 

Actually,
does not matter because this is a great thread for people to see. Also, give people a chance to comment on their beliefs on the differences between the two. I agree that the plants are same b/c of dna should be the same (besides possibly AeAe and other genetic mutation). So differences should be related to root system. I also believe that water suckers probably are pulling nutients from parent plant. This does not force root system to form early on. Plant gets big and mother plant cannot provide for the pup. This slows down the pup. Then people cut pup off giving it more shock and slowing down its growth for a while. Water suckers are fighting from the beginning. They are not about to get water and nutrients from soil. So they develop a good root system before they develop the leaf (this is true with non-bananas grown from seed). Once a plant gets a good root system, the leaves will have necessary nutrients to photosynthesize. We cut this off and it has everything it needs. It is not shocked as much when we cut it "umbilical" cord. Next thing is to figure out what causes the difference. I wish I knew. Probably, it is due to limited nutrients from the mother plant. I do believe that a water sucker can be as vigorus as a sword. But they take more time and may fruit before the have the time to completely catch up. This would explain the difference in size of the bunches. This all being said, other argument is that mother plant giving sword lots of nutrients so thats why they dont get leaves (dont need them). This could be true. My problem is why does it force roots. The I just like the other theory more. I think it is more like a plant growing from a seed. Now I not sure myself lol. But think first theory is best in my mind. But this is a great thread.

Re: Water suckers
 

That's what we do as commercial producers. Depending on the variety, we only leave one or two sword pups per parent and remove the rest, including the water suckers by gouging them out to the growing point.

Re: Water suckers
 

With slow growing tropicals I keep, whenever basal shoots pop up, it never saps the mother's growth. In my opinion, it actually may help. The leaves of the suckers conduct photosynthesis too, it's not just growing all off the mother. While it may slow it initially, it will soon pick up speed again and all the growing points will be growing at the same fast rate. On one of my plants, the mother vine and the two shoots were timing their leaf openings so that they would open at different times, then once the shoots got big enough, all were opening at the same time. So basically, I believe it only saps energy initially and no more after that.

Re: Water suckers
 

new to site not to growing bananas...arnt water suckers used by the mother plant to regulate water....dont water suckers act as water storage for mother plant????there if needed by mom incase of low water i.e less rain.. if not needed no problem???

Re: Water suckers
 

Here I have a new photo of a nice sword sucker in my greenhouse

Directupload.net - g2k9iu9w.jpg

Re: Water suckers
 

I've noticed that some suckers tend to be intermediates between sword and water suckers. A sucker that came right off of an old Mysore corm started out a sword sucker but quickly developed into a water sucker, but it still grows very vigorously.

Re: Water suckers
 

That's a swater sucker

Re: Water suckers
 

I just bought two petri-cultured plants online. they and about 8" tall and have broad leaves already. Does this mean they are water suckers? Why would someone sell petri-cultured water suckers? I bought them from Aloha Tropicals online... did I make a bad choice?

Thanks!

Re: Water suckers
 

No but you need to acclimate them.Keep them out of direct sun for now'

Re: Water suckers
 

No I don't think so. All the TC plants I have gotten, all from Aloha Tropicals, have been this way. TCs I have bought locally are similar, maybe a little more thick, but nothing like a true pup. They are quite different from sword suckers, but not as broad leaved as water suckers. All have gone in full sun in Hawaii right away, so for me, I've never tried to acclimate them. Maybe 2 of 12 died--1 from corm weevils (my fault), 1 arrived in sad shape (fault of transit most likely) and was replaced for free. The replacement is doing great. I'm now first transplanting to bigger pots where they are corm weevil safe until they get a bit bigger.

That said, my water sucker A'e A'e from an original plant is my healthiest and happiest of 3 transplanted pups. So even if you bought a water sucker, while generally not the best, I would think in the right conditions it could thrive. Just realized I posted in this thread 3 months ago with pictures. Wow, have these 3 taken off since then! The water sucker has 5 pups so far, the other two 3 and 2, and the water sucker is by far the thickest and tallest, although still a bit more green than the others. That said, it is all alone with no other banana competition, with the house as a windbreak, and virgin "soil" (probably no corm weevils and less nematodes). Which I think adds to the idea that if treated right, in a good spot, a water sucker can do fine. And if you spent $ for it, try that before you give up.

Re: Water suckers
 

You will have better luck with TC's if you plant first in small pots and let them get a good root system before you plant in ground.New TC plants exposed to direct sun will burn.

Re: Water suckers
 

Yeah, what he said! I started this banana thing with potted TC's picked up at Going Bananas in Homestead, Fl. They did great. Then I ordered more by mail and they were bareroot TCs. Half of them died quick. Learned to never order TCs during the winter. And I live in S Fla. Without a greenhouse they will damp off quick.

Re: Water suckers
 

All my Ice Cream has produced so far are water suckers. They come straight off of the mother plant and are well-attached to it. Meanwhile, my unknown and my Mysore are busy producing sword suckers. What would cause this?

Re: Water suckers
 

i feel so lost.. i hav3 always wanted a banana tree because i LOVE the looks of them. this year i moved to Florida and my son bought me some banana plants in gallon buckets from target. I replanted them and they are growing like crazy. One started to get yellow and look like it was dying and i noticed small plants popping up all around them. I decided to "google" it and i found this site and who would have known all this stuff. I just now feel lost and will try to re-read this thread to figure out what to do with the "babies" that could be many diff things!! i will be interested to see what this thread brings. any suggestions for basics for a beginner? THANKS in advance :)

Re: Water suckers
 

All my pups have been swords since the water sucker on my R Iholena withered away.. it has a sword on now.. :^)

Re: Water suckers
 

Leave the "babies" (suckers). Your plant produced them because the main stem was dying. Figure out why the main stem was giving up the ghost or the suckers will die, too.

Re: Water suckers
 

I purchased a number of TCs from Wellspring Gardens (in Central Florida). After contacting WSG about some initial problems I was having, Donovan, either an employee or the owner, told me their bananas are grown under 50% shade cloth.

Trying to expose newly acquired young plants to 100% sunlight will kill them right quick, especially with the thin strands of roots the plants are forced to work with.

Anyway, back on topic, I noticed that all my TCs resemble water suckers. Fortunately it only took about 3 weeks of 1g pot/dappled shade acclimation before they were tough enough to survive on their own in full sun with a bag of cheap box-store manure mixed into the florida sand.

3 months later, and the root systems aren't overly extensive, but the plants seem to be near-hybrids; not as tall as a bulbous-cormed nanas would be by now, but not as weak and susceptible to problems as a thin-rooted plant would lead you to believe.

Re: Water suckers
 

I had an Ice Cream push up a Water sucker but since died after the flowering and death of the main plant.. The Sword pup from the main plant is pushing up a sword pup now.. :^)

Re: Water suckers
 

Here's a nice sword sucker coming off of one of my unidentified plants.

Re: Water suckers
 

I think TC plants always resemble water suckers when young. They don't really have corms to speak of -- no stored energy.

Re: Water suckers
 

That is a very nice illustration, Caliboy!