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Main Banana Discussion This is where we discuss our banana collections; tips on growing bananas, tips on harvesting bananas, sharing our banana photos and stories.


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Old 11-25-2023, 07:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

It still looks healthy and the leaf burn looks normal for an AeAe in sun. I bet it will grow well this winter if kept warm. Still sending good wishes for it to grow to a giant size.
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Old 11-26-2023, 08:46 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Now that you have more experience do you still think the problem was nematodes or could it have been just poor soil aeration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff zone 8 N.C. View Post
I asked if that is your 1st because I have killed several. I am guessing Savannah is the same as eastern N.C. where I grow. I would not leave it in ground over winter. They do not like cold soil. I lost all (or as far as I know) of my AeAe to nematodes. The best and largest which grew huge were ground planted. Whether ground planted or in pots watch for eventual deterioration of the plant and be ready to act to save it. It will begin with lack of growth, then loss of leaves, then you find the corm rotting. This is nematodes. to fix that you dig the corm, clean the dead tissue off, as much as possible then heat water to 130F, in a large pot (large enough to hold corm) and then dip the corm in the hot water. The books say for 20 to 30 mins. This kills the nematodes and you can recover the corm as long as it goes back into nematode free soil. That water is too hot to keep your hands in so I worried it would cook the corm. It did not. It worked to save it. Still that high heat scared me so next time I used 125F water and left the corm till the water cooled. That seemed to work too. There are other methods you can use too. The key is to act fast and not wait thinking it will recover soon. My way is from a scholarly book called "Bananas" by M.W. Simmonds as best as my memory serves me. Some others may chime in here with their own methods or dispute mine, which is ok, so watch this thread. Oh and by the way if you sell pups put me on your list. Been itching to kill another one haha.
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Old 11-26-2023, 08:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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Originally Posted by RROBBINS53 View Post

Sometimes I just do the hot water soak.
The cold water soak works a lot better.
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Old 11-26-2023, 08:55 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Next time you clean off the rhizome post a photo of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbertico18 View Post
Attachment 3969

Made the call about three weeks ago to dig her up put her back in the front where there’s more wintertime sun. The roots seemed fine but I still soaked in 130°F water for a while and removed as much of the old soil that I could and then repotted with fresh soil and sand.

At first all of the leaves got bad sunburn and some had to be removed. I figured this would happen as it was in a very shaded spot between the canopy of a blue Java and Thai black.

Oddly enough I noticed it had a sucker coming up while it was dug up so hopefully it’ll sprout up over the winter as long as we don’t get too cold
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Old 11-26-2023, 01:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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Originally Posted by PR-Giants View Post
Now that you have more experience do you still think the problem was nematodes or could it have been just poor soil aeration?
No. If it were nematodes I think the plant would have deteriorated farther than it has. My experience is a rapid decline with nematodes.
The cold water soak is something I have never heard of. Can you elaborate on length of soak. Do you use pure water?
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Old 11-26-2023, 09:16 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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My experience is a rapid decline with nematodes.
I wouldn't associate the symptoms you described with a nematode problem and nematodes would cause a gradual decline in the plants' health possibly resulting with a lower than expected yield. I've seen many nematode problems and they were always associated with poor cultural practices.

How did you confirm that you had a nematode problem?
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Old 11-26-2023, 10:59 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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I wouldn't associate the symptoms you described with a nematode problem and nematodes would cause a gradual decline in the plants' health possibly resulting with a lower than expected yield. I've seen many nematode problems and they were always associated with poor cultural practices.

How did you confirm that you had a nematode problem?
I took a corm from a potted plant that was doing poorly and was in very well draining soil, to my county Agricultural Extension Agent. He examined a sample of tissue under a microscope and saw and showed me the nematodes. I did this because I easily grew other banana types, with no problems at all. I could not figure out why my AeAe plants would always begin to fail after growing strong for some time. They would suddenly deteriorate and I could not stop it. I had tried everything grow wise and nothing worked. After seeing the nematodes I gave all my remaining plants a hot water bath and potted them in a sterile mix. They all recovered and grew well. Even then I eventually lost them all, over some years to various problems. I now am trying again, with AeAe and Florida and so far so good. I have them potted in a very well draining mix, as you suggest, because I also think that even though I had used well draining mixes before, they did not drain as well as your mix. I am also keeping them off the ground at least until I get backup offsets.
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff zone 8 N.C. View Post
I took a corm from a potted plant that was doing poorly and was in very well draining soil, to my county Agricultural Extension Agent. He examined a sample of tissue under a microscope and saw and showed me the nematodes. I did this because I easily grew other banana types, with no problems at all. I could not figure out why my AeAe plants would always begin to fail after growing strong for some time. They would suddenly deteriorate and I could not stop it. I had tried everything grow wise and nothing worked. After seeing the nematodes I gave all my remaining plants a hot water bath and potted them in a sterile mix. They all recovered and grew well. Even then I eventually lost them all, over some years to various problems. I now am trying again, with AeAe and Florida and so far so good. I have them potted in a very well draining mix, as you suggest, because I also think that even though I had used well draining mixes before, they did not drain as well as your mix. I am also keeping them off the ground at least until I get backup offsets.
You're using a lot of anecdotal evidence to support cause and effect.

Everything you've written is also commonly caused by poor soil aeration.

When I inspect a corm from a potted plant that was doing poorly I would expect to see many different opportunistic insects that had nothing to do with causing the problem.

I think it's clear that we're discussing two different nematodes and I'm only aware of one that causes a problem for bananas and it's easily identified upon a visual inspection. They also affect the subgroups differently, hence the term "nematode resistant bananas".

"Symptoms

The most distinctive symptom of Meloidogyne infestation is the appearance of galls on primary and secondary roots, which become swollen and distorted with heavy infestations. Galls vary in size, reaching up to 15 mm in diameter. In bananas, M. incognita infection typically result in the formation of small galls on the roots or fine dilations in thicker fleshy roots. Different Meloidogyne species can occupy the same gall, as well as colonize the outer layers of the rhizome, where reddish-brown patches appear in the conducting vessels. Observation of longitudinal sections of infected root material with the naked eye can reveal females at various stages of maturation, together with associated blackened haloes known as “female’s chamber”. "




"The majority of soil nematodes are beneficial to soil health and the environment.

Nematodes are often talked about in a quiet fearful voice. The image of the small microscopic worms can bring grown men to their knees. Unfortunately like many things in our world, a few “bad” apples have ruined the entire bushel. Attention has been given extensively to a small segment of the nematode population that negatively impacts crops but those nematodes are a very small percent of the nematode population. The larger percentage of the population benefit agriculture and the environment especially soil health.

Nematodes enhance soil quality in four major areas: regulate the populations of other soil organisms, mineralize nutrients into plant-available forms, provide a food source for other soil organisms and consume disease-causing organisms.

Nematodes are considered grazers. They move through the soil profile devouring smaller organisms as well as distributing any bacteria or fungi that are on them as well as any that are in their digestive system. If the nematode population is low, they will stimulate the growth rate of prey populations. If the nematode population is high, they have the potential to have negative impact on soil health by devouring too much of their prey especially micorrhizal fungi. There are also predatory nematodes that balance the population of other nematodes

Nematodes are important nutrient mineralizers. When nematodes consume bacteria or fungi they release excess ammonium (NH4+). Bacteria and fungi both have more ammonium than what the nematode needs so the extra is released in a plant available form.

Nematodes are not the highest organism in the soil food web. Soil microarthropds and insects as well as bacteria and fungi feed on nematodes. As stated earlier there are also predatory nematodes in the soil that consume nematodes.

A major function of soil nematodes is that they are biocontrol agents, meaning they can be used to eliminate disease causing nematodes and other organisms. This trait causes predatory nematodes to be a great resource in the battle against soil borne diseases."
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Old 11-27-2023, 10:35 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

I see what you are saying. It makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up. Can you elaborate on the timing for a cold water dip and when it might be needed.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Giants View Post
You're using a lot of anecdotal evidence to support cause and effect.

Everything you've written is also commonly caused by poor soil aeration.

When I inspect a corm from a potted plant that was doing poorly I would expect to see many different opportunistic insects that had nothing to do with causing the problem.

I think it's clear that we're discussing two different nematodes and I'm only aware of one that causes a problem for bananas and it's easily identified upon a visual inspection. They also affect the subgroups differently, hence the term "nematode resistant bananas".

"Symptoms

The most distinctive symptom of Meloidogyne infestation is the appearance of galls on primary and secondary roots, which become swollen and distorted with heavy infestations. Galls vary in size, reaching up to 15 mm in diameter. In bananas, M. incognita infection typically result in the formation of small galls on the roots or fine dilations in thicker fleshy roots. Different Meloidogyne species can occupy the same gall, as well as colonize the outer layers of the rhizome, where reddish-brown patches appear in the conducting vessels. Observation of longitudinal sections of infected root material with the naked eye can reveal females at various stages of maturation, together with associated blackened haloes known as “female’s chamber”. "




"The majority of soil nematodes are beneficial to soil health and the environment.

Nematodes are often talked about in a quiet fearful voice. The image of the small microscopic worms can bring grown men to their knees. Unfortunately like many things in our world, a few “bad” apples have ruined the entire bushel. Attention has been given extensively to a small segment of the nematode population that negatively impacts crops but those nematodes are a very small percent of the nematode population. The larger percentage of the population benefit agriculture and the environment especially soil health.

Nematodes enhance soil quality in four major areas: regulate the populations of other soil organisms, mineralize nutrients into plant-available forms, provide a food source for other soil organisms and consume disease-causing organisms.

Nematodes are considered grazers. They move through the soil profile devouring smaller organisms as well as distributing any bacteria or fungi that are on them as well as any that are in their digestive system. If the nematode population is low, they will stimulate the growth rate of prey populations. If the nematode population is high, they have the potential to have negative impact on soil health by devouring too much of their prey especially micorrhizal fungi. There are also predatory nematodes that balance the population of other nematodes

Nematodes are important nutrient mineralizers. When nematodes consume bacteria or fungi they release excess ammonium (NH4+). Bacteria and fungi both have more ammonium than what the nematode needs so the extra is released in a plant available form.

Nematodes are not the highest organism in the soil food web. Soil microarthropds and insects as well as bacteria and fungi feed on nematodes. As stated earlier there are also predatory nematodes in the soil that consume nematodes.

A major function of soil nematodes is that they are biocontrol agents, meaning they can be used to eliminate disease causing nematodes and other organisms. This trait causes predatory nematodes to be a great resource in the battle against soil borne diseases."
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Old 11-27-2023, 12:40 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff zone 8 N.C. View Post

Can you elaborate on the timing for a cold water dip and when it might be needed.
That was in response to a post about weevils.

If a weevil infested potted banana or rhizome is placed in water the adult weevils will climb out of water and can easily be collected. The larvae will drown and if there is a concern about the eggs then check a life cycle chart and repeat after the eggs hatch.

Breaking the life cycle is a common technique for pest control.

Regardless to the amount of damage done to the stored nutrients, as long as the growing point was undamaged the plant will recover.

The plant will continue to grow as normal during the treatment.
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Old 11-27-2023, 02:40 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Oh ok, I have done that method before. I have used it to rid bananas and other plants of whatever bug soil life is in their pots. Mostly I do it on the rare occasion when I want to bring a plant into my house from outside and only then for rare plants. Most everything stays in my greenhouse for the winter where I think most soil life is beneficial.
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Old 11-29-2023, 12:58 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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I have done that method before.
Yeah, all of the basic farming techniques have been in practice long before we've been working the soil and who invented it or when is much less important than who's using it. The most important technique that I attribute my success to was first used by humans 2 million years ago.
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Old 11-29-2023, 01:48 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

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commonly caused by poor soil aeration.
Many of the problems a newbie encounters when growing the a'ea'e are commonly caused by poor soil aeration and it's not that many of them plan to fail, it's that many of them fail to plan.

Once a plant is in situ it's difficult to increase soil aeration but it's very easy to reduce it. By using a substrate with high aeration many of those common problems can be avoided and the new focus could go towards maximizing growth.

Air is an important part of a plants' environment and it's often not focused on enough.
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:11 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Agreed. Even though I am not a newbie I'm still learning after nearly 50 years of growing and hoping your advice works out for me and others here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PR-Giants View Post
Many of the problems a newbie encounters when growing the a'ea'e are commonly caused by poor soil aeration and it's not that many of them plan to fail, it's that many of them fail to plan.

Once a plant is in situ it's difficult to increase soil aeration but it's very easy to reduce it. By using a substrate with high aeration many of those common problems can be avoided and the new focus could go towards maximizing growth.

Air is an important part of a plants' environment and it's often not focused on enough.
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Old 02-19-2024, 12:12 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbertico18 View Post
Attachment 3969

Made the call about three weeks ago to dig her up put her back in the front where there’s more wintertime sun. The roots seemed fine but I still soaked in 130°F water for a while and removed as much of the old soil that I could and then repotted with fresh soil and sand.

At first all of the leaves got bad sunburn and some had to be removed. I figured this would happen as it was in a very shaded spot between the canopy of a blue Java and Thai black.

Oddly enough I noticed it had a sucker coming up while it was dug up so hopefully it’ll sprout up over the winter as long as we don’t get too cold
On the coast here in N.C. we have had a fairly warm winter so I know you must have too. Just wondering how your AeAe is doing. Hope it recovered well.
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Old 02-28-2024, 08:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Hey yeah sorry for the delayed response, the site has still been pretty buggy for me.

I think it’s made three or four leaves since it’s been potted, but they would get fried by the cool nights. The sucker I saw while repotting it still has yet to emerge, and it’s currently shooting out a new cigar!
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Old 02-28-2024, 10:20 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Well if you have kept an AeAe alive outside over winter you can count that as "You have done good". Glad to hear that. It should be about ready to show some better growth. Hoping you have a better summer for it this year.
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Old 03-01-2024, 11:04 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: Stunted Ae'Ae ?

Once your plant gets past the winter hump it will fare much better.
My plants pull back when indoors too.

We had a mild winter too which helped many tender plants.
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