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Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
I got tired of collecting loads of leaves each fall and trying to get rid of them in spring. I have
therefore decided to “construct” permanent shelters for my bananas, to be used next winter, but also for the last few frosty nights this spring. It is entirely made of 1 inch Styrofoam. The two layers are separated with the help of 3” spacers and the gaps will be filled in fall with glass fibre batting. Three 4x8 sheets of the stuff got me two shelters 24 inches high for single pseudo stems and one 36 inches high for my pad of 4 (plus some pups). I will still have to do some leaf mulching around the bottom, to keep the cold from intruding at the bottom of the shelter, but I won't have the mulching piled up to 3 feet high and to worry about settling. The concept behind the ‘truncated pyramid’ design is that the ground, when protected from frost will deliver some warmth though the wide bottom opening, to keep the then truncated PS passively heated from below and “cozy”. This picture shows the basic structure of the single PS unit. No fibre glass stuffing yet, that will come in the fall and is for the light spring frost unnecessary This photo shows the lid from its underside. The little square, glued in the centre, fits into the inner housing. The lid extends an inch beyond the outside walls and is grooved to have rain and melt water drip off rather than travel along the bottom of the lid into the shelter. I will also devise a washer, either from thin foam or from felt. This last photo show the finished job before painting. I have reinforced the joints of this extremely light contraption with high quality duct tape. Four bamboo sticks and some weight on top will secure it from being blown away and make it easy to take the thing off during warm spring days and stick it back on, when late frost threatens. If there is sufficient interest, I can draw up the lay out plans on the 4x8 sheets again, the ones I have been using are pretty mangled and give detailed “how to” instructions. But that would be quite a bit of work. Best, Olaf |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Simply awesome!!!
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
You might just re-think the business of opening the box up when you have a warm day, as you just might goose a dormant plant into thinking it's time to start making leaves. It's best to keep plants away from an up-and-down season...just go out yourself and enjoy that nice day...leave the plants alone until the season really changes.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Very nice DIY work! I hope it works out well for you.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
What a incredible bit of planning/engineering! (If you do this all winter, what do your plants do for light?)
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
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a few years now and the plants have thanked me with getting a head start on the season. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
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the purpose of this contraption is not to keep the bananas growing throughout the winter, but to keep them from freezing, while they are dormant. It is just a replacement for piling up a lot of mulch and it is hopefully a lot more effective, because it is even all around, lets warmth in from the ground below and not subject to settling and displacement as leaf mulch is. Thus no light is necessary Best, Olaf |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Here is the Big one for the whole pad painted and beside the one you have seen below:: And this is the whole famn damily, all dressed up in a coat of paint, ready for a Sunday afternoon stroll down the promenade.:) |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Nice project !!
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Now all you need are some nice banana tree graphics on the sides of the covers, so you can enjoy them year 'round! lol:08:
Paul |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Great advice, but I am uniquely untalented when it comes to drawing free hand. The last time
I tried to draw a dog, an observer said: "But cars have round wheels, not sticks." I gave up joining Rubens and Michealangelo on the list of famous painters right then :) |
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what a great idea. I like that you painted them. did you just use a latex outdoor paint? Id be interested in the layout of the cuts but I think from your pics I can draw it out on paper.
thanks Mike |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Hi Mike,
this is the second request for more information. I had already one by PM. If I get one more, I'll draw up the cutting scheme. There are two tricks to this: 1. First is the efficient use of the Styrofoam sheets. One sheet is neither enough for the big one, nor enough for the two small one. I needed a third sheet to make up the difference and then I had to paste pieces together for the lids. 2. You need a good sharp cutting knife with a full (long) blade, so you can hold it at a flat angle for a clean cut. The cuts need to be vertical for good contact between the parts. If you have that, then the glued joints are stronger then the Styrofoam. I used a four feet long plastic carpenter’s level to get some vertical guidance as well as for straight lines.. If I get one more request, I will post detailed guidance accompanied by photos next week. This week I am busier than a one-armed paper hanger.. There is no rush now anyway. You won’t get it ready for spring protection, because the glue will have to set preferably over night for the various stages. So it will take longer to assemble as any need for frost protection Good luck, Olaf PS: I actually used some left over solid stain for outdoors, mixed with some acrylic paint to cheer up the colour a bit :) |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
thanks for the tips Olaf. I wont need something like this until this fall anyways so no rush for me to make them.
great job! Mike |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
List of tools:
1. Cutting schematic for two single pseudo stem shelters and one pad shelter (works out well on three sheets of Styrofoam) 2. Three 4 x 8’ sheets of 1” Styrofoam 3. One cutting knife with complete blade 4. One roll of masking tape 5. One bullet point felt marker 6. One roll of prime grade Duct Tape (not the inferior Duck Tape or such) 7. One 4 feet long cutting guide, preferably a carpenter’s level 8. One large right angle guide 9. One tape measure 10. One large card board cutting base ( may be a cut open and flattened box) 11. Weldbond glue, at least 12 Fl oz. (~340 ml) Optional: • .Paint • A coupling for white PVC irrigation pipe, 1½ or 2 inches diameter. Cutting the parts: A good base of corrugated cardboard will last you through the whole job. Mark the Styrofoam sheets as shown in the schematic: When cutting it is important to hold the cutting knife vertical and flat in the direction of the cut, to ensure it to be clean and smooth. If the cuts are not reasonably vertical you will not get good contacts when you assemble the parts later. A carpenter’s level is thick and will thus also provide you with some vertical guidance for the cut, which a simple flat straight edge will not. The parts on the schematic are labelled OP for outer panel and IP for inner panel. KFL stands for "keep for lid". Assembling the shelters: When you stick two panels together, place one flat on the floor, attach masking tape strips underneath and then apply a generous bead of glue along the edge. As shown in this picture: It helps to get the proper right angle, because SF is rather rigid stuff and not easy to correct later I did that by brazing the panels in the inside with a rectangular ruler and then span masking tape across to hold it in place as shown here: While that glue is setting, you may want to stick the other two panels together. With the second two panel set it is important, that you make sure, that the flat panel to edge sequence can follow continuously in the same direction, not as shown in this photo: The panel at the bottom of this photo should have butted with its edge to the flat of the right panel. I was lucky to make that error with the first shelter, thus I was able to stick those for second one together in a manner to achieve the proper sequence for both :) Once you have both, the inside and the outside shell assembled and the glue has properly set, you will want to glue in the 3” spacers. You do not want to make them too high, so they won’t get in the way when stuffing in the glass fibre insulation later. I made mine a bit less that 3” high (7 cm). Use the smallest leftovers, which will suffice, since you will need the larger ones for the lid. This photo only shows the top spacers, you want to stick others in the bottom the same way. I.e., you want 8 ea. 3” x 2½ ” spacers for each shelter If you make the same number of shelters from 3 sheets as I did, you will have to glue some of the larger pieces together for the lid as shown here: Gluing the foam edge to edge is not a problem, because it will break before the glue will come apart. I have cut the lid two inches larger than the outside of the top of the shelter walls to achieve a 1 inch overhang. Cut a square for each of the shelters to fit into the inner walls, 5“ square for the single stem ones and 12 inches square for the whole pad shelter and glue them to the centre of the lids, as shown here: Grooving the bottom of the lid with a triangular file about ¼ inch from the edge as you may be able to see here, will prevent any water from traveling along the bottom into the shelter. The photo below shows the use of Duct Tape to reinforce the joints and top and bottom edges, as well as the positioning of the shelter “in the field”, held in place by 4 bamboo poles and weighed down with a rock, so it cannot blow away, That allows for easy repeated removal and replacement in spring according to weather conditions: Optionals Here is the whole group all decked out in a brand new paint job, which is actually not required, as Styrofoam is as weather resistant as any paint, but the latter looks better. The other optional is actually just a tip. I am using couplings for PVC irrigation pipe to keep the glue flowing toward the ‘exit’. To stick the bottle upside down into one after each use saves a lot of time and aggravation :) Ah yes, because I do not always (want to) close the top, it sometimes drips. Over the years the paper toweling I placed below as drip catcher has formed with the glue a solid bottom. :ha: I use the same method with a few couplings in the fridge for ketchup and salad dressing etc. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Great thread Olaf.
I don't know if this would work as well, but if someone wanted to make it using one sheet, they can divide a sheet into three 32 x 48 inch pieces. Make a diagonal cut in one of the pieces and then make one cut in each of those two pieces to form 2 isosceles triangles that have a pair of 48 inch sides, for a total of 5 cuts. For extra strength it could be glued to a sheet of plywood and maybe hinges could be added to the top so it can be folded flat for storage. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Sorry, K J, I do not quite grasp, what you mean. Are you suggesting a pyramid with a triangular base?
I that case you would have problems with contact at the joints, as two pieces would not match at the same plane, but I am really at a loss at visualizing your concept. Would the plywood sheet be at the bottom? In that case it would cut off the warming effect of the ground below. Also a door would be unnecessary, as in winter it would only let cold air in and in warm weather the whole structure, weighing only a couple of pounds can easily be lifted off. But I am just tapping in the dark, because I do not understand your proposed configuration. :( |
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The 2 large pieces would be the roof and the 2 isosceles triangles the gable.
I would glue the styrofoam to the plywood and cut them both together. #2 or #3 plywood shouldn't be too heavy. Sorry, but I don't understand the part about a door. 6. One roll of prime grade Duct Tape (not the inferior Duck Tape or such) Gorilla Tape works great. Gorilla Glue - Home |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Well,,,as they say in the south,,,well I'll just be dogged gone. Like that idea you have,,great job.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
What is the point? just asking.
I mean a contractor/construction bag would do the same or even garbage can sounds about the same. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Not even close. It is like saying that a salamander is equivalent of a crocodile.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Ramanon,
Where's your sense of creativity? This is an an awesome project for those engineers among us that also like plants. Have you ever built a plant stand or lean-to greenhouse or anything? It's done for the challenge, fun and sense of accomplishment. I like it! |
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Wasn't trying to insult, just didn't get it. Insulation factor from styrofoam? |
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Okay, Ramanon, no insult taken.
Here are however a few figures which might help point out the difference between my shelter and a contractor's vinyl bag: Okay, Styrofoam (polystyrene), one inch thick has an r-value of 4. Two layers of that in my shelters have an r-value of 8. Add to that the glass fibre filler I intent to add in fall, with a nominal r-value of 9 for the three inches and you get a total of 17. Admittedly stuffing glass fibre between the polystyrene layers will not quite achieve that, so let us assume a final r-value of 15 total. That would be the equivalent of a twelve inch stack of plywood. Since frost here only goes a few inches deep at most, I consider my shelter sufficient in keeping the content frost free. :) Certainly it will be superior to the leaf mulch I have employed successfully in past winters, especially since the pyramid shape is relatively open to the warm soil below. Oh yes, you need a concrete wall of more than 7.5 feet thickness to achieve r = 15 :ha: Note: r = resistance to temperature penetration. |
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Interesting design, I look forward to seeing your results this winter. Do you have space at the bottom for lights on a Thermo cube if necessary?
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In the tropics concrete walls and roofs are nice, cool during the day, warm and cozy at night. :waving: |
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and should keep the temperature well above freezing. For the Maurelii I have devised a “passive heating system” – just a fancy name for permitting warmer air from the lower strata to rise up into the shelter. The permanent temperature “down there” is about 8^C in our region. I am trying to tap into that. I will write more about that, when I have some results on my ”non-destructive propagation experiment”, as the installation of the heating duct ties into that. |
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Any ideas that will produce the desired result of successfully overwintering bananas in temperate climates immediately catch my interest. I think your intention to tap into the temperature of the earth has significant merit. I've previously posted picture of a simple device I've used to kickstart my plants in the spring, using otherwise discarded nursery pots. Going further with your idea, I might hammer two or three lengths of metal conduit into the soil inside the walls of my towers to tap into that latent heat. Additional to the whole conversation......there is no such thing as cold, per se, rather, the abscence of heat (sometimes a great abscence to be sure , lol), so the idea of insulation only has merit if trying to keep heat in, it will have less importance to keeping cold out (effective sealing is the trick here). So, maintaining and keeping a source of heat inside the enclosure certainly makes a lot of sense. Keep thinking, experimenting and sharing. We're all in this together..................:bed:
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Hi Rik,
it is good to see, that somebody is still looking at this. It is even better if he picks it up and expands on it :) Your idea of hammering metal conduits may have merit, but won’t work for me. Our property is located on an old riverbed from the time, when the Thompson River was still flowing through the Okanagan into the Columbia, instead of the Frazer. That means, once you go 2 to 4 feet down, you hit river-run boulders. They would stop any metal rod dead. :( That little shelter has other advantages, I had originally not thought of, but later mentioned in other threads: Typically it is considered save in our area to plant tomatoes (and with that bananas) outside around May 15. With some reliance on weather forecasts I usually do that sometime between May 5 & 10. That misses a lot of nice, warm days in March and April. With this shelter I can even start the uncovering in February for a few days and more in March and April. It is easy to put the lid back on in seconds when frost threatens. And because the PS will hopefully start growing during that time and poke over the top, you can just place first a bucket and later a tomato cage upside-down on top and hang an old quilt or blanket over it. Any frost during that time will be short and light. Thus you might gain a month or more growing season. Daylight hours and light conditions are in late March similar to mid September. That is not so easy to do with leaf mulch or stacked hay/straw bales. I have now packed all my bananas away, that last one 3 days ago, and am anxiously looking forward to how that will all play out in spring. On a different note, in a previous post (Two of my posts down)I stated: Quote:
R-value of 12 and after installing it I feel confident, that it filled in well enough to retain that R-value fully. Overkill? – Probably :) Best, Olaf |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
I think that is one of the more interesting parts of this site, in that everyone's situation, challenges and solutions can be very different. Occasionally there is a nugget of useful information that comes along that addresses many problems. For instance, I am essentially frost free most years, but have to give serious consideration to keeping dormant plants from excessive moisture and resulting rot here on Vancouver Island. But often the solutions are not too far removed from someone dealing with cold and snow for example. My Ensete A has gotten too big for overwintering in my workshop as it has for the last two years (cool, barely heated, dim light most of the time), so I'm interested in your successes this winter. I will definitely follow your progress. Thanks again!:08:
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Hi Rik,
since you appear to be open to experimentation, here is a quote from a post from another thread on ‘bananas.org’ on a different subject: Quote:
for survival outdoors in your area. The trick is to have not just one or two keepers, but a few extras to experiment with. Thus if the cold hardiness claims are exaggerated and you lose one outdoors you still have not lost all. The reason, why I am approaching you now and not wait until I return with them is, that they have to be sown almost immediately after they leave the fruit. In other words I would have to send them to you right after my return and you would also have to soak them right away and subsequently get them into the soil quickly. Thus look through the thread in the quote and, if interested, send me your mailing address before x-mas. Best, Olaf |
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Olaf, your follow up almost made me laugh out loud, as just last week I purchased a Kumquat from a local nursery at a very good discount. So, there is already a bit of an interest in citrus going on here! I had some sort of orange as a houseplant years ago, but haven't had anything of the sort since. The flowers and scent of citrus imitators (mexican orange and mock orange) are a component of my summer garden, and the kumquat is right on the edge for outdoor survival here. As such, I am toying with the idea of finding a choice spot for it. One bad winter could end that dream however, so for the present, it will grace a choice spot near the patio doors. Past attempts at citrus from seed have been hit and miss, and I don't recall any getting more than a foot or two tall before succumbing. But much more thought and investigation required before I go that route. But, oh the realities we create in the dark recesses of our fertile minds! More to follow, I'm sure!:2738:
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Well, you can take your time looking through that thread. There are still almost 6 weeks ‘til
Christmas to make up your mind. :) Olaf |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
very nice i will look into building t his type of structure. Looks a heck of alot better then just mulch.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Now, that all my shelters have been opened up, I think it is a good time to assess their
performance; Shelter #1, which housed the E. Maurelii was a bomb. That plant was clearly dead, and it now looks as if there won’t be any pups from the stump either. It is not entirely clear, what killed it. It could have been the cold or it could have been, that it was kept in complete darkness for almost 6 months. Unfortunately I had only one min/max thermometer, when I put those bananas to sleep last fall and I used that for monitoring the cold hardiness of a quat and an oleander in our neighbour’s sunroom. The quat (rated hardy to -10^C) survived the min. temperature in the sunroom of -8^C without blinking, while the oleander succumbed. Accordingly I have no idea, how cold it got inside the shelter during the winter. ________________________________________________________________ __ The second shelter housed a basjoo, which suffered greatly during dormancy, but I have reason to believe, that it was not necessarily due to frost. If you look at the picture below, you will be able to see, that there was a mysterious kind of rot going down near the centre of the PS. Frost would have presumably killed the PS from the outside in. This rot happened to develop in the centre of the PS.  In the above picture you see the remaining stump of the PS in the centre, while I arraigned the slices as I have cut them off from the top, starting from the top left clockwise. The stump now shows some sign of growth (only ¼ inch so far), but it will clearly survive. ________________________________________________________________ __ The third shelter, the big one in the family of three, housing my main pad of basjoo, was obviously a success. You can clearly see in the below photo, that new growth started, right where I sliced the PSs off in fall. There was no freeze-back as those same plants have suffered in previous winters.  To the left you can see one of the 4 min/max thermometers, which I am now using to monitor the overnight temps and which I will enclose with the stumps next winter, to see how cold it gets inside the shelter during the winter. |
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I'm following your experience with your shelters with great attention, even if I don't reply. I'm wondering if they can be adapted/used to help those of use who are willing to try the growth of edible cultivars on a less than ideal environment.
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Hi Pancrazio (do you have a first name or something more convenient to call you by?),
I cannot say anything about your edible cultivars, because I don’t know anything about them and how they would be able to take the lack of light. You would have to figure that for yourself, but in HZ 8b to 9 you should not have to deal with severe frost, and a shelter like this one might not be necessary. Just build a scaffolding like the one shown here: You can easily assemble it with ¾ inch irrigation pipe. Just stick it together and when you no longer need it, take it apart and bundle the pieces for easy storage. You can cover it with polyethylene sheeting and when cold nights are forecast toss an old quilt over it (can you spell Sally Ann?). On very cold nights you can augment that with a string of (outdoor) x-mas lights or similar and on borderline nights you can toss a 1 gallon milk jug filled with hot water in it. That will give you more room than my banana shelters, lets light in, when the quilt is not applied and should do with most of your plants. Just make sure, that you will include some sort of a gable, for a flat roof will let rain water pool and make a mess of it. Good luck, Olaf |
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Hi there Olaf,
You can call me Pan, my Italian name would sound exotic and hard-to-remember anyway. :) Although I live in what is basically considerable by a Z8-9 by the average minimum temperature of the coldest nights, what i see around me tells another story. We, in fact, have cold and damp winter, and while they don't have any "spike cold" as some people experience in SC or in KY they don't get much sun either, and temperature, even if don't get very cold, stay relatively cold for months (it's almost impossible to have anything hotter than 55-60F between December and March). So our local flora doesn't even remember the one you can see in z9 if you go in florida for istance: too much wetness, which doesn't goes well with bananas and other stuff. Maybe a good approximation of my winter can be Vancouver or Virginia Beach. To help with this, since it is almost impossible to get a drier environment, i was thinking about raising the temperatures which may help the bananas during the winter months. I must admit that i haven't tried any "outside overwintering" yet so i don't know how they would react to the climate but as i can tell by people from california, i suppose that banana wouldn't like to have cold wet feet for several months in a row. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Hi Pan,
I cannot see how moisture or wetness in you region can be a detriment to outside wintering. Bananas like humidity and wet “feet” have never bothered them, although during the winter dormant period, you may want to prevent them from getting too soggy. See: http://www.bananas.org/f10/what-root-rot-19716.html The shelter I proposed here will do that, but is probably not be necessary in your climate If you want to use just leaf mulch just place a “skirt” of plastic sheeting over top of your mulch, sloping away from the base of the plant. There is a lot of advice available in the “Cold hardy bananas” forum. Good luck, Olaf |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
I agree with you bananas love to stay wet, the problem is, that when they get most water (in winter) they are already stressed and unable to resist to disease using the method that bananas use against most soil parasitic disease: growing over it.
I have tried three times with a cavendish to overwinter it in a reasonably dry environment (i mean potted in a unheated greenhouse with the strict amount of water needed to maintain dampness, in a sandy soil) and in every attempt the pstem and the roots rotted without any regard towards my efforts. I think that the problem is: once they are actively growing, no amount of water can damage them: but when dormant, they prefer a drier environment. This seems to keep true for every banana which is very stressed by low temperature. I have found this hardly surprising because it seems pretty much the standard behaviour of every tropical plant i grow. Also my soil has a fair amount of clay and during extendend rainy periods i think my soil can become also depleted in oxigen, i think. Basjoo are everywhere around here and are an exception to this rule. The fact is, basjoos are pretty far from dying when the water falling from the sky is still liquid, so they aren't really stressed by cold rain. However in next years I'll try to experiment with DO and DN to see what happens. So far the Goldfinger i overwintered outside in a dry spot behaved very well. |
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Now that I have removed the large shelter, it is clearly visible, that all the larger PSs
contained therein have been well preserved and started re-growing right from where I sliced them off at an angle last fall. During the last few winters I had to cut the stems much shorter, since there is a limit at how hight you can pile the leaves around them and they froze/rotted back from there. Instead of starting from 6 to 10 inch high stumps, they now start 30 to 32 inches high That is a lot of plant mass, which will not have to be replaced this season and the remaining stems are also healthier  Want to preserve more of the stems, - build a higher shelter. In other words: The shelter will probably protect your PS from frost to any height you can fit into it, at least in HZ6. My large shelter was 36 inches high, the plug in the lid was 4 inches deep and I set the whole thing in a little grove at the bottom. • The E. Maurelii was a low prospect experiment, which did not pan out. • In the other small shelter appeared to have been problems with a mysterious rot from inside the stem. • But the large one clearly worked as it was designed to. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
After seeing that digging up a banana and keeping it overwintered indoors takes it back too far to allow for flowering or producing fruit... Would you say that the increased preservation of stems and root structure with this type of shelter would help a plant to get a better start, and perhaps flower the next year?
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Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
It definitely would. The plants do not need any time to recover. New growth can
be detected within a couple of days, although the loss of stem height is a setback. Alternately uprooted plants will have to first adpt to the new location, establish new roots, then replenish the lost moisture before they can resume growth. If it is enough to get your plants to bloom in your short season, would probably depend on how much of the stem you can preserve. I have so far not achieved bloom here in HZ 6. |
Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring
Olafhenny,
Did you find the temporary greenhouse structure above effective? How much of a temperature difference was there between the outside and interior? I like this structure since it can easily be removed at the end of the winter and put away and/or the PVC pipe can double as support for hanging fruit bunches. Pretty cool. Thanks! |
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