Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring - Page 2

Olafhenny · 07-17-2013, 11:00 AM

Not even close. It is like saying that a salamander is equivalent of a crocodile.

pniksch · 07-17-2013, 04:34 PM

Ramanon,
Where's your sense of creativity? This is an an awesome project for those engineers among us that also like plants. Have you ever built a plant stand or lean-to greenhouse or anything? It's done for the challenge, fun and sense of accomplishment. I like it!

Ramanon · 07-17-2013, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pniksch

Ramanon,
Where's your sense of creativity? This is an an awesome project for those engineers among us that also like plants. Have you ever built a plant stand or lean-to greenhouse or anything? It's done for the challenge, fun and sense of accomplishment. I like it!

I guess I have none,

Wasn't trying to insult, just didn't get it. Insulation factor from styrofoam?

Olafhenny · 07-17-2013, 11:29 PM

Okay, Ramanon, no insult taken.

Here are however a few figures which might help point out the difference between my shelter
and a contractor's vinyl bag:

Okay, Styrofoam (polystyrene), one inch thick has an r-value of 4. Two layers of that in my
shelters have an r-value of 8. Add to that the glass fibre filler I intent to add in fall, with a
nominal r-value of 9 for the three inches and you get a total of 17.

Admittedly stuffing glass fibre between the polystyrene layers will not quite achieve that, so
let us assume a final r-value of 15 total. That would be the equivalent of a twelve inch stack
of plywood. Since frost here only goes a few inches deep at most, I consider my shelter
sufficient in keeping the content frost free.

Certainly it will be superior to the leaf mulch I have employed successfully in past winters,
especially since the pyramid shape is relatively open to the warm soil below.

Oh yes, you need a concrete wall of more than 7.5 feet thickness to achieve r = 15

Note: r = resistance to temperature penetration.

Nate74 · 09-07-2013, 11:02 AM

Interesting design, I look forward to seeing your results this winter. Do you have space at the bottom for lights on a Thermo cube if necessary?

PR-Giants · 09-07-2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Okay, Ramanon, no insult taken.

Here are however a few figures which might help point out the difference between my shelter
and a contractor's vinyl bag:

Okay, Styrofoam (polystyrene), one inch thick has an r-value of 4. Two layers of that in my
shelters have an r-value of 8. Add to that the glass fibre filler I intent to add in fall, with a
nominal r-value of 9 for the three inches and you get a total of 17.

Admittedly stuffing glass fibre between the polystyrene layers will not quite achieve that, so
let us assume a final r-value of 15 total. That would be the equivalent of a twelve inch stack
of plywood. Since frost here only goes a few inches deep at most, I consider my shelter
sufficient in keeping the content frost free.

Certainly it will be superior to the leaf mulch I have employed successfully in past winters,
especially since the pyramid shape is relatively open to the warm soil below.

Oh yes, you need a concrete wall of more than 7.5 feet thickness to achieve r = 15

Note: r = resistance to temperature penetration.

In the tropics concrete walls and roofs are nice, cool during the day, warm and cozy at night.

Olafhenny · 09-07-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate74

Interesting design, I look forward to seeing your results this winter. Do you have space at the bottom for lights on a Thermo cube if necessary?

No, based on my previous experience with leaf mulch, this is a much more promising approach
and should keep the temperature well above freezing.

For the Maurelii I have devised a “passive heating system” – just a fancy name for permitting
warmer air from the lower strata to rise up into the shelter. The permanent temperature “down
there” is about 8^C in our region. I am trying to tap into that.

I will write more about that, when I have some results on my ”non-destructive propagation
experiment”, as the installation of the heating duct ties into that.

bananarama2 · 11-12-2013, 06:06 PM

Any ideas that will produce the desired result of successfully overwintering bananas in temperate climates immediately catch my interest. I think your intention to tap into the temperature of the earth has significant merit. I've previously posted picture of a simple device I've used to kickstart my plants in the spring, using otherwise discarded nursery pots. Going further with your idea, I might hammer two or three lengths of metal conduit into the soil inside the walls of my towers to tap into that latent heat. Additional to the whole conversation......there is no such thing as cold, per se, rather, the abscence of heat (sometimes a great abscence to be sure , lol), so the idea of insulation only has merit if trying to keep heat in, it will have less importance to keeping cold out (effective sealing is the trick here). So, maintaining and keeping a source of heat inside the enclosure certainly makes a lot of sense. Keep thinking, experimenting and sharing. We're all in this together..................

Olafhenny · 11-12-2013, 10:57 PM

Hi Rik,

it is good to see, that somebody is still looking at this. It is even better if he picks it up
and expands on it

Your idea of hammering metal conduits may have merit, but won’t
work for me. Our property is located on an old riverbed from the time, when the Thompson
River was still flowing through the Okanagan into the Columbia, instead of the Frazer. That
means, once you go 2 to 4 feet down, you hit river-run boulders. They would stop any
metal rod dead.

That little shelter has other advantages, I had originally not thought of, but later mentioned
in other threads:

Typically it is considered save in our area to plant tomatoes (and with that bananas) outside
around May 15. With some reliance on weather forecasts I usually do that sometime
between May 5 & 10. That misses a lot of nice, warm days in March and April. With this
shelter I can even start the uncovering in February for a few days and more in March and
April. It is easy to put the lid back on in seconds when frost threatens. And because the
PS will hopefully start growing during that time and poke over the top, you can just place
first a bucket and later a tomato cage upside-down on top and hang an old quilt or blanket
over it. Any frost during that time will be short and light. Thus you might gain a month or
more growing season. Daylight hours and light conditions are in late March similar to mid
September. That is not so easy to do with leaf mulch or stacked hay/straw bales.

I have now packed all my bananas away, that last one 3 days ago, and am anxiously
looking forward to how that will all play out in spring.

On a different note, in a previous post (Two of my posts down)I stated:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Admittedly stuffing glass fibre between the polystyrene layers will not quite achieve that, so
let us assume a final r-value of 15 total. That would be the equivalent of a twelve inch stack
of plywood. Since frost here only goes a few inches deep at most, I consider my shelter
sufficient in keeping the content frost free.

That was before I bought the Fiberglass insulation, which turned out to have a stated
R-value of 12 and after installing it I feel confident, that it filled in well enough to retain
that R-value fully. Overkill? – Probably

Best,
Olaf

bananarama2 · 11-13-2013, 02:44 AM

I think that is one of the more interesting parts of this site, in that everyone's situation, challenges and solutions can be very different. Occasionally there is a nugget of useful information that comes along that addresses many problems. For instance, I am essentially frost free most years, but have to give serious consideration to keeping dormant plants from excessive moisture and resulting rot here on Vancouver Island. But often the solutions are not too far removed from someone dealing with cold and snow for example. My Ensete A has gotten too big for overwintering in my workshop as it has for the last two years (cool, barely heated, dim light most of the time), so I'm interested in your successes this winter. I will definitely follow your progress. Thanks again!

Olafhenny · 11-13-2013, 01:25 PM

Hi Rik,

since you appear to be open to experimentation, here is a quote from a post from another thread on
‘bananas.org’ on a different subject:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

I have tried to make a case for Fortunella japonica (Thunberg) Swingle, a very attractive, cold hardy
citrus suitable for pot raising here: Seeds for Quất, possibly the most attractive and hardy citrus…

The problem with them is, that they have to go into the ground very soon after they are harvested,
as, I believe now, applies to all citrus. As a result only the first badge planted germinated and my plan
to spread out the seeding process over time, even years, failed.

I believe they have to go into the soil within three or four weeks after leaving the fruit. (Being spat
out

)

I will head again to Vietnam this winter and will certainly bring more seeds back for myself. Here
in Canada I am okay to bring back up to 500g of them, but in the US there is probably a problem.

I have no problem sending some there, though

Best,
Olaf

These citrus are from all appearances quite suitable for indoor growing, but should be hardy enough
for survival outdoors in your area.

The trick is to have not just one or two keepers, but a few extras to experiment with. Thus if the cold
hardiness claims are exaggerated and you lose one outdoors you still have not lost all.

The reason, why I am approaching you now and not wait until I return with them is, that they have to
be sown almost immediately after they leave the fruit. In other words I would have to send them to you
right after my return and you would also have to soak them right away and subsequently get them into
the soil quickly.

Thus look through the thread in the quote and, if interested, send me your mailing address before
x-mas.

Best,
Olaf

bananarama2 · 11-14-2013, 02:32 AM

Olaf, your follow up almost made me laugh out loud, as just last week I purchased a Kumquat from a local nursery at a very good discount. So, there is already a bit of an interest in citrus going on here! I had some sort of orange as a houseplant years ago, but haven't had anything of the sort since. The flowers and scent of citrus imitators (mexican orange and mock orange) are a component of my summer garden, and the kumquat is right on the edge for outdoor survival here. As such, I am toying with the idea of finding a choice spot for it. One bad winter could end that dream however, so for the present, it will grace a choice spot near the patio doors. Past attempts at citrus from seed have been hit and miss, and I don't recall any getting more than a foot or two tall before succumbing. But much more thought and investigation required before I go that route. But, oh the realities we create in the dark recesses of our fertile minds! More to follow, I'm sure!

Olafhenny · 11-15-2013, 12:44 AM

Well, you can take your time looking through that thread. There are still almost 6 weeks ‘til
Christmas to make up your mind.

Olaf

Montgg · 11-17-2013, 07:30 PM

very nice i will look into building t his type of structure. Looks a heck of alot better then just mulch.

Olafhenny · 04-26-2014, 06:41 PM

Now, that all my shelters have been opened up, I think it is a good time to assess their
performance;

Shelter #1,
which housed the E. Maurelii was a bomb. That plant was clearly dead, and it now looks as if
there won’t be any pups from the stump either. It is not entirely clear, what killed it. It could
have been the cold or it could have been, that it was kept in complete darkness for almost 6
months. Unfortunately I had only one min/max thermometer, when I put those bananas to sleep
last fall and I used that for monitoring the cold hardiness of a quat and an oleander in our
neighbour’s sunroom. The quat (rated hardy to -10^C) survived the min. temperature in the
sunroom of -8^C without blinking, while the oleander succumbed.

Accordingly I have no idea, how cold it got inside the shelter during the winter.
________________________________________________________________ __

The second shelter housed a basjoo, which suffered greatly during dormancy, but I have reason
to believe, that it was not necessarily due to frost. If you look at the picture below, you will be
able to see, that there was a mysterious kind of rot going down near the centre of the PS. Frost
would have presumably killed the PS from the outside in. This rot happened to develop in the
centre of the PS.

In the above picture you see the remaining stump of the PS in the centre, while I arraigned
the slices as I have cut them off from the top, starting from the top left clockwise.

The stump now shows some sign of growth (only ¼ inch so far), but it will clearly survive.
________________________________________________________________ __

The third shelter, the big one in the family of three, housing my main pad of basjoo, was obviously
a success.
You can clearly see in the below photo, that new growth started, right where I sliced the PSs off
in fall. There was no freeze-back as those same plants have suffered in previous winters.

To the left you can see one of the 4 min/max thermometers, which I am now using to monitor
the overnight temps and which I will enclose with the stumps next winter, to see how cold it
gets inside the shelter during the winter.

Pancrazio · 04-26-2014, 07:07 PM

I'm following your experience with your shelters with great attention, even if I don't reply. I'm wondering if they can be adapted/used to help those of use who are willing to try the growth of edible cultivars on a less than ideal environment.

Olafhenny · 04-26-2014, 09:17 PM

Hi Pancrazio (do you have a first name or something more convenient to call you by?),

I cannot say anything about your edible cultivars, because I don’t know anything about them and
how they would be able to take the lack of light. You would have to figure that for yourself, but
in HZ 8b to 9 you should not have to deal with severe frost, and a shelter like this one might not
be necessary. Just build a scaffolding like the one shown here:

You can easily assemble it with ¾ inch irrigation pipe. Just stick it together and when you no
longer need it, take it apart and bundle the pieces for easy storage.

You can cover it with polyethylene sheeting and when cold nights are forecast toss an old quilt
over it (can you spell Sally Ann?).

On very cold nights you can augment that with a string of (outdoor) x-mas lights or similar and
on borderline nights you can toss a 1 gallon milk jug filled with hot water in it. That will give
you more room than my banana shelters, lets light in, when the quilt is not applied and should do
with most of your plants. Just make sure, that you will include some sort of a gable, for a flat
roof will let rain water pool and make a mess of it.

Good luck,
Olaf

Pancrazio · 05-05-2014, 08:27 PM

Hi there Olaf,
You can call me Pan, my Italian name would sound exotic and hard-to-remember anyway.

Although I live in what is basically considerable by a Z8-9 by the average minimum temperature of the coldest nights, what i see around me tells another story. We, in fact, have cold and damp winter, and while they don't have any "spike cold" as some people experience in SC or in KY they don't get much sun either, and temperature, even if don't get very cold, stay relatively cold for months (it's almost impossible to have anything hotter than 55-60F between December and March). So our local flora doesn't even remember the one you can see in z9 if you go in florida for istance: too much wetness, which doesn't goes well with bananas and other stuff. Maybe a good approximation of my winter can be Vancouver or Virginia Beach. To help with this, since it is almost impossible to get a drier environment, i was thinking about raising the temperatures which may help the bananas during the winter months. I must admit that i haven't tried any "outside overwintering" yet so i don't know how they would react to the climate but as i can tell by people from california, i suppose that banana wouldn't like to have cold wet feet for several months in a row.

Olafhenny · 05-05-2014, 10:45 PM

Hi Pan,

I cannot see how moisture or wetness in you region can be a detriment to outside wintering.
Bananas like humidity and wet “feet” have never bothered them, although during the winter
dormant period, you may want to prevent them from getting too soggy.
See: What root rot?

The shelter I proposed here will do that, but is probably not be necessary in your climate
If you want to use just leaf mulch just place a “skirt” of plastic sheeting over top of your
mulch, sloping away from the base of the plant.

There is a lot of advice available in the “Cold hardy bananas” forum.

Good luck,
Olaf

Pancrazio · 05-06-2014, 06:27 PM

I agree with you bananas love to stay wet, the problem is, that when they get most water (in winter) they are already stressed and unable to resist to disease using the method that bananas use against most soil parasitic disease: growing over it.
I have tried three times with a cavendish to overwinter it in a reasonably dry environment (i mean potted in a unheated greenhouse with the strict amount of water needed to maintain dampness, in a sandy soil) and in every attempt the pstem and the roots rotted without any regard towards my efforts. I think that the problem is: once they are actively growing, no amount of water can damage them: but when dormant, they prefer a drier environment. This seems to keep true for every banana which is very stressed by low temperature.
I have found this hardly surprising because it seems pretty much the standard behaviour of every tropical plant i grow. Also my soil has a fair amount of clay and during extendend rainy periods i think my soil can become also depleted in oxigen, i think.
Basjoo are everywhere around here and are an exception to this rule. The fact is, basjoos are pretty far from dying when the water falling from the sky is still liquid, so they aren't really stressed by cold rain.

However in next years I'll try to experiment with DO and DN to see what happens. So far the Goldfinger i overwintered outside in a dry spot behaved very well.

07-17-2013, 11:00 AM	#21 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Not even close. It is like saying that a salamander is equivalent of a crocodile. __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

07-17-2013, 04:34 PM	#22 (permalink)
pniksch Find me on the map! Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 60 BananaBucks : 9,350 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 5 Times Was Thanked 46 Times in 29 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 21 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Ramanon, Where's your sense of creativity? This is an an awesome project for those engineers among us that also like plants. Have you ever built a plant stand or lean-to greenhouse or anything? It's done for the challenge, fun and sense of accomplishment. I like it!

07-17-2013, 11:29 PM	#24 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Okay, Ramanon, no insult taken. Here are however a few figures which might help point out the difference between my shelter and a contractor's vinyl bag: Okay, Styrofoam (polystyrene), one inch thick has an r-value of 4. Two layers of that in my shelters have an r-value of 8. Add to that the glass fibre filler I intent to add in fall, with a nominal r-value of 9 for the three inches and you get a total of 17. Admittedly stuffing glass fibre between the polystyrene layers will not quite achieve that, so let us assume a final r-value of 15 total. That would be the equivalent of a twelve inch stack of plywood. Since frost here only goes a few inches deep at most, I consider my shelter sufficient in keeping the content frost free. Certainly it will be superior to the leaf mulch I have employed successfully in past winters, especially since the pyramid shape is relatively open to the warm soil below. Oh yes, you need a concrete wall of more than 7.5 feet thickness to achieve r = 15 Note: r = resistance to temperature penetration. __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

09-07-2013, 11:02 AM	#25 (permalink)
Nate74 Location: Abbotsford BC Find me on the map! Zone: 8B Elevation 133m/436ft Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 84 BananaBucks : 41,402 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 113 Times Was Thanked 243 Times in 60 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 91 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Interesting design, I look forward to seeing your results this winter. Do you have space at the bottom for lights on a Thermo cube if necessary? __________________

11-12-2013, 06:06 PM	#28 (permalink)
bananarama2 bananarama2's Photo Gallery Location: The drier, sunny East Coast of the West Coast, on Vancouver Island Find me on the map! Zone: 8a to 8b (?) Name: Rik Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 165 BananaBucks : 15,469 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 102 Times Was Thanked 221 Times in 96 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 25 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Any ideas that will produce the desired result of successfully overwintering bananas in temperate climates immediately catch my interest. I think your intention to tap into the temperature of the earth has significant merit. I've previously posted picture of a simple device I've used to kickstart my plants in the spring, using otherwise discarded nursery pots. Going further with your idea, I might hammer two or three lengths of metal conduit into the soil inside the walls of my towers to tap into that latent heat. Additional to the whole conversation......there is no such thing as cold, per se, rather, the abscence of heat (sometimes a great abscence to be sure , lol), so the idea of insulation only has merit if trying to keep heat in, it will have less importance to keeping cold out (effective sealing is the trick here). So, maintaining and keeping a source of heat inside the enclosure certainly makes a lot of sense. Keep thinking, experimenting and sharing. We're all in this together.................. __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

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11-13-2013, 02:44 AM	#30 (permalink)
bananarama2 bananarama2's Photo Gallery Location: The drier, sunny East Coast of the West Coast, on Vancouver Island Find me on the map! Zone: 8a to 8b (?) Name: Rik Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 165 BananaBucks : 15,469 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 102 Times Was Thanked 221 Times in 96 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 25 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring I think that is one of the more interesting parts of this site, in that everyone's situation, challenges and solutions can be very different. Occasionally there is a nugget of useful information that comes along that addresses many problems. For instance, I am essentially frost free most years, but have to give serious consideration to keeping dormant plants from excessive moisture and resulting rot here on Vancouver Island. But often the solutions are not too far removed from someone dealing with cold and snow for example. My Ensete A has gotten too big for overwintering in my workshop as it has for the last two years (cool, barely heated, dim light most of the time), so I'm interested in your successes this winter. I will definitely follow your progress. Thanks again! __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Last edited by bananarama2 : 11-13-2013 at 02:45 AM. Reason: spelling correction

11-14-2013, 02:32 AM	#32 (permalink)
bananarama2 bananarama2's Photo Gallery Location: The drier, sunny East Coast of the West Coast, on Vancouver Island Find me on the map! Zone: 8a to 8b (?) Name: Rik Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 165 BananaBucks : 15,469 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 102 Times Was Thanked 221 Times in 96 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 25 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Olaf, your follow up almost made me laugh out loud, as just last week I purchased a Kumquat from a local nursery at a very good discount. So, there is already a bit of an interest in citrus going on here! I had some sort of orange as a houseplant years ago, but haven't had anything of the sort since. The flowers and scent of citrus imitators (mexican orange and mock orange) are a component of my summer garden, and the kumquat is right on the edge for outdoor survival here. As such, I am toying with the idea of finding a choice spot for it. One bad winter could end that dream however, so for the present, it will grace a choice spot near the patio doors. Past attempts at citrus from seed have been hit and miss, and I don't recall any getting more than a foot or two tall before succumbing. But much more thought and investigation required before I go that route. But, oh the realities we create in the dark recesses of our fertile minds! More to follow, I'm sure! __________________ If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

11-15-2013, 12:44 AM	#33 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Well, you can take your time looking through that thread. There are still almost 6 weeks ‘til Christmas to make up your mind. Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

11-17-2013, 07:30 PM	#34 (permalink)
Montgg Location: Edmonton, Alberta Zone: 3b-4a Name: Monty Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 24 BananaBucks : 9,386 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 3 Times Was Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring very nice i will look into building t his type of structure. Looks a heck of alot better then just mulch.

04-26-2014, 06:41 PM	#35 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Now, that all my shelters have been opened up, I think it is a good time to assess their performance; Shelter #1, which housed the E. Maurelii was a bomb. That plant was clearly dead, and it now looks as if there won’t be any pups from the stump either. It is not entirely clear, what killed it. It could have been the cold or it could have been, that it was kept in complete darkness for almost 6 months. Unfortunately I had only one min/max thermometer, when I put those bananas to sleep last fall and I used that for monitoring the cold hardiness of a quat and an oleander in our neighbour’s sunroom. The quat (rated hardy to -10^C) survived the min. temperature in the sunroom of -8^C without blinking, while the oleander succumbed. Accordingly I have no idea, how cold it got inside the shelter during the winter. ________________________________________________________________ __ The second shelter housed a basjoo, which suffered greatly during dormancy, but I have reason to believe, that it was not necessarily due to frost. If you look at the picture below, you will be able to see, that there was a mysterious kind of rot going down near the centre of the PS. Frost would have presumably killed the PS from the outside in. This rot happened to develop in the centre of the PS. In the above picture you see the remaining stump of the PS in the centre, while I arraigned the slices as I have cut them off from the top, starting from the top left clockwise. The stump now shows some sign of growth (only ¼ inch so far), but it will clearly survive. ________________________________________________________________ __ The third shelter, the big one in the family of three, housing my main pad of basjoo, was obviously a success. You can clearly see in the below photo, that new growth started, right where I sliced the PSs off in fall. There was no freeze-back as those same plants have suffered in previous winters. To the left you can see one of the 4 min/max thermometers, which I am now using to monitor the overnight temps and which I will enclose with the stumps next winter, to see how cold it gets inside the shelter during the winter. __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

04-26-2014, 07:07 PM	#36 (permalink)
Pancrazio Location: Florence, Italy Find me on the map! Zone: 8b-9a Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 201 BananaBucks : 77,323 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 187 Times Was Thanked 258 Times in 107 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 11 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring I'm following your experience with your shelters with great attention, even if I don't reply. I'm wondering if they can be adapted/used to help those of use who are willing to try the growth of edible cultivars on a less than ideal environment. __________________ Italian fruit forum

04-26-2014, 09:17 PM	#37 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Hi Pancrazio (do you have a first name or something more convenient to call you by?), I cannot say anything about your edible cultivars, because I don’t know anything about them and how they would be able to take the lack of light. You would have to figure that for yourself, but in HZ 8b to 9 you should not have to deal with severe frost, and a shelter like this one might not be necessary. Just build a scaffolding like the one shown here: You can easily assemble it with ¾ inch irrigation pipe. Just stick it together and when you no longer need it, take it apart and bundle the pieces for easy storage. You can cover it with polyethylene sheeting and when cold nights are forecast toss an old quilt over it (can you spell Sally Ann?). On very cold nights you can augment that with a string of (outdoor) x-mas lights or similar and on borderline nights you can toss a 1 gallon milk jug filled with hot water in it. That will give you more room than my banana shelters, lets light in, when the quilt is not applied and should do with most of your plants. Just make sure, that you will include some sort of a gable, for a flat roof will let rain water pool and make a mess of it. Good luck, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

05-05-2014, 08:27 PM	#38 (permalink)
Pancrazio Location: Florence, Italy Find me on the map! Zone: 8b-9a Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 201 BananaBucks : 77,323 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 187 Times Was Thanked 258 Times in 107 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 11 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Hi there Olaf, You can call me Pan, my Italian name would sound exotic and hard-to-remember anyway. Although I live in what is basically considerable by a Z8-9 by the average minimum temperature of the coldest nights, what i see around me tells another story. We, in fact, have cold and damp winter, and while they don't have any "spike cold" as some people experience in SC or in KY they don't get much sun either, and temperature, even if don't get very cold, stay relatively cold for months (it's almost impossible to have anything hotter than 55-60F between December and March). So our local flora doesn't even remember the one you can see in z9 if you go in florida for istance: too much wetness, which doesn't goes well with bananas and other stuff. Maybe a good approximation of my winter can be Vancouver or Virginia Beach. To help with this, since it is almost impossible to get a drier environment, i was thinking about raising the temperatures which may help the bananas during the winter months. I must admit that i haven't tried any "outside overwintering" yet so i don't know how they would react to the climate but as i can tell by people from california, i suppose that banana wouldn't like to have cold wet feet for several months in a row. __________________ Italian fruit forum

05-05-2014, 10:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 296,833 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring Hi Pan, I cannot see how moisture or wetness in you region can be a detriment to outside wintering. Bananas like humidity and wet “feet” have never bothered them, although during the winter dormant period, you may want to prevent them from getting too soggy. See: What root rot? The shelter I proposed here will do that, but is probably not be necessary in your climate If you want to use just leaf mulch just place a “skirt” of plastic sheeting over top of your mulch, sloping away from the base of the plant. There is a lot of advice available in the “Cold hardy bananas” forum. Good luck, Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

05-06-2014, 06:27 PM	#40 (permalink)
Pancrazio Location: Florence, Italy Find me on the map! Zone: 8b-9a Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 201 BananaBucks : 77,323 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 187 Times Was Thanked 258 Times in 107 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 11 Times	Re: Permanent banana shelter for winter and spring I agree with you bananas love to stay wet, the problem is, that when they get most water (in winter) they are already stressed and unable to resist to disease using the method that bananas use against most soil parasitic disease: growing over it. I have tried three times with a cavendish to overwinter it in a reasonably dry environment (i mean potted in a unheated greenhouse with the strict amount of water needed to maintain dampness, in a sandy soil) and in every attempt the pstem and the roots rotted without any regard towards my efforts. I think that the problem is: once they are actively growing, no amount of water can damage them: but when dormant, they prefer a drier environment. This seems to keep true for every banana which is very stressed by low temperature. I have found this hardly surprising because it seems pretty much the standard behaviour of every tropical plant i grow. Also my soil has a fair amount of clay and during extendend rainy periods i think my soil can become also depleted in oxigen, i think. Basjoo are everywhere around here and are an exception to this rule. The fact is, basjoos are pretty far from dying when the water falling from the sky is still liquid, so they aren't really stressed by cold rain. However in next years I'll try to experiment with DO and DN to see what happens. So far the Goldfinger i overwintered outside in a dry spot behaved very well. __________________ Italian fruit forum Last edited by Pancrazio : 05-06-2014 at 06:38 PM. Reason: typo

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