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Old 07-16-2010, 12:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Hello,

I know a banana matt in Athens that has been growing for years and have always enjoyed passing by it but always thinking it as a Musa basjoo. However,when i saw a photo of Musa basjoo flower here on the .org,i knew i had never seen one!!!! All the banana matts i have seen in flower in Greece had deep purple inflorescence bracts which rules out M. basjoo. So it turns out the most commonly grown banana in Greece(which still you dont see often)is probably some kind of edible banana.
The banana matt i was telling you about,i have seen it in flower and fruit before and i know it has deep purple bracts too so its definately not a M. basjoo. Seeing photos of Orinoco,i can say it looks pretty close to identical and as i dont have one,i am interested in getting a pup of it. But first,i want to know if its the Tall or the Dwarf form as i am only interested in the Tall,original forms. This matt grows at the edge of pine canopy with some stems in shade and some in full sun. The ones growing in shade are easily 3meters(maybe 4 but i am not sure,i will have to check next time i pass by to hopefully get a pup)and still havent flowered or flaged with pretty huge leafs,about 2m or more in length. The ones growing in sun and particularly a stem that is currently fruiting,is shorter,possibly 2 but maybe even 3meters. I dont know if this stem had any misfortune that cause it to be that short but the others in full sun are also that short,only not flagging or flowering yet.
The pseudostem of these plants is yellowish,as is the leaf midrib when seem from below. It has some white powder on the underside of the leafs,not too thick but enough to make them greyish green.
Anyway,i am sure its hard to id without a photo so i would like to know what is the minimum pseudostem height a full sun grown,established for years but not too big mat of ''Orinoco'' may have and still be the Tall Orinoco,what is the max height it can attain and under what conditions only and also,what is the maximum height a ''Dwarf Orinoco'' may attain under any growing conditions? What is the minimum height at which the plant is considered a Tall Orinoco? Is there any Orinoco variety inbetween the dwarf and the tall/regular,in height?

Thank you very much in advance!
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:09 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Haha j/k.. lol A dwarf Orinoco might be lucky if the tallest leaf reaches 3 meters when its still a cigar.. :^) p-stem is 2 meters or less (roughly). With all the Orinoco pic's posted lately it shouldn't be a tough one.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Wiki says 5 t0 8' for dwarf,16 to 20 for tall.Both my tall are fruiting about 12'

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Old 07-16-2010, 02:41 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Konstantinos,

If you want a chance at ending up with an Orinoco with some height, I would get a pup from a mat of tall plants. From what I have seen it is just too varable in height. I can show you a couple established mats here that are flowering at 7'-9'. Some in full sun, some in partial shade. They aren't Dwarf Orinoco either.
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Thank you very much all of you for your replys and info!


I know,i need to take some pictures and post here but i hope to get a pup on the first chance i pass by so pictures and pup will probably come together!
Its good to hear about the height it can reach,thank you very much Michael! Indeed,the photos posted lately help a lot and i am going to check the flowers next time too!


Thanks for the info Tony! I read that on the wiki but i dont know if these are absolute maximums and under what conditions these heights are achievable.
I will look better next time and try to judge heights better,the sizes i gave are very rough and conservative estimates from what i remember.
16-20ft would be awesome but 12ft are surely something too!


Thank you very much for the info Dave!
How do you distinguish Orinoco from Dwarf Orinoco at that marginal flowering height? Does something else change too apart from mature pseudostem height?
There are possibly loads of mutations of the Orinoco then...
The banana mat i am talking about is the tallest one i have seen in Greece. The full sun plants of it are shorter than others i have seen but the shade ones are the tallest i have seen!


I will take a good look at them again,make a better height estimate and if it satisfys me as a mature height,i will get a pup from the huge pseudostems growing in shade...

Does anybody have an Orinoco at 16 to 20ft tall? I think i have never seen a picture of one that tall!

Thank you very much in advance!
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Make sure you get a sword sucker. The difference between that and a water sucker with Orinoco is quite astounding in terms of growth. It's basically 98 to 2.
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Konstantinos - I had both types of Orinoco and found that the Dwarf Orinoco flower with a stem height of 6ft or less, whereas the tall Orinocos flower with a stem height of at least 16ft and the pseudostems are massive - nearly as big around as Saba. I agree with Tommy - make sure you get a vigorous sword pup and good luck!
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Old 07-17-2010, 02:15 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kostas View Post
I know,i need to take some pictures and post here but i hope to get a pup on the first chance i pass by so pictures and pup will probably come together!
Haha, banana guerilla!!

I like that
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Old 07-19-2010, 05:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Thank you very much all of you for your replys!

Thank you very much for the tip Tommy,i will try to follow it depending on what is availiable/i can take!

Island Cassie,
Thank you very much for the info,its great to hear your Dwarf flowers that short and your normal that tall! I hope this clump actually reaches higher that i said here,i will try to make a better guess before taking a pup! Your 16ft tall clump certainly is ideal and must be a beauty!!!

Thanks Ante! I hope to pass by that clump tomorrow and see...
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:59 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Today i stopped by the mat i was telling you about with my phone's camera on hand and a shovel in my bag
Here are the pictures i took of that mat:





Trying to catch people passing by for size reference...but i didnt catched them at the exact place needed for perfect size reference...You get an idea though compensating for the size difference due to people or the mat being closer/further away in the photos






The only pseudostem flowering at the moment which also happens to be one of the shortest mature stems of the mat. In the pictures below,the actual flowering pseudostem is obstructed from view by another of about the same height but more upright. If you try,you can make out the leaning pseudostem behind that one and see where that pseudostem ends but its not the easiest thing. That peudostem was about 2,5 to 3(?)m in length but leaning a good deal. You can see the inflorescence and the tiny bananas in the picture which are few in number and quite small




So what do you think it is? Do i have good chances to have a very tall Orinoco by taking a pup from that mat?

Unfortunately this time only the camera was put to work,the shovel returned home unused as the pups availiable from the inner,tall part of the clump were quite big to just take one(1,5m) and also because i wanted to see how much more these big pseudostems will grow before flowering! Hopefully more pups will be produced and i can take a smaller one when i return from my vacations!

Thank you very much in advance!
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

That is not the 'Dwarf Orinoco', it is the tall. With different management it can be even taller.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:01 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Talking Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Great pic's Kostas.. I bet your shovel looked small compared to the Orinoco's as well... lol :^)

Ok, Gabe.. what's the secret to getting a bigger banana? :^) (Everyone wants to know how to manage that)
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Hi Kosta,

if you could dig up a pup for me as well, I would be delighted!
But unfortunately you won't be able to bring it to Skiathos next week. We could have planted it together right away!

See you next week!

Bernd

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Old 07-22-2010, 11:59 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

All the Orinocos around here this summer have bloomed 7-8 foot seems to be more blooms than normal iv seen 8 bloomed within 14 miles form my house.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Thank you very much all of you for your replys!

Thank you very much Gabe,thats great to hear!
How should i manage a pup i will get from that mat to grow even taller? Having an even taller Orinoco mat would be awesome!

Thanks Michael,i am glad you liked them!
My shovel would be hard to notice next to this clump,it was a portable,folding shovel anyway although still,the handle was sticking out of my bag quite a bit....
Shame i didnt put it to work....

Hi Bernd!

Unfortunately i didnt take any pup this time and so i dont have any to bring with me unfortunately...It would sure be fun planting it in the ground together! With all the preparation work i have to do before going on vacations,it will be difficult to go there again and dig up a pup but i will try...

See you next week on the Island!


Thanks for sharing that Shannon,good to hear there are so many bananas in bloom that far north!
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:31 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Hello!

The tallest pseudostem seen in my previous pictures had flowered when i returned from my vacation and so i took a few pictures of it for you to see its mature height and flowers.

Here they are!
















These pictures are about a month old and now this stem is holding a nice bunch of bananas and has already produced some rows of male flowers. I will get some updated ones and post here soon as well!

I still havent gotten a pup from it but i will be working in the building complex it resides in for the next 3 months starting from October so...i will get to enjoy the whole mat dailly! And who knows,maybe a banana hand as well
As for the pup i want,i now plan on taking it early next spring as i am sure it will be safer and grow faster on the clump than with me in Melissia...This mat never loses its leafs in winter while Melissia see snow annually....
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:11 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

A few new pictures of the bunch I took today!






So,is it now confirmed it's a Tall Orinoco?

I hope you liked it!
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:47 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Keep in mind that although Orinoco's tend to max out at 16 to 20 feet that is not always the case. I've seen shorter bloom and I've seen taller bloom.

There is one that's in a pecan stump that has bloomed (it suffered through the '010 freeze but did not die and has bloomed at the height of approx. 6 feet) and the fruit is almost ready. I'll be uploading pictures of various bananas and yards I take care of soon and I'll be updating my photos at some point - I'll be sure to make it obvious for those that want to see.
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Old 09-25-2010, 05:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Thank you very much for your reply Tommy!

I hope mine gets to be of the extraordinary Tall ones!!! I love tall plants!

Looking forward to seeing your pictures! :-)
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: ''Orinoco'' and ''Dwarf Orinoco'' mature height

Here are a couple of photos from Monday! If you look carefully and closely in the photos,you will see there is some yellowish/brownish/blackish discoloration at the attachment point of the bananas. This started developing soon after they were produced but it keeps progressing instead of stopping. What is that and why is it happening? Is it a nutritional issue or from a pathogen?




Thank you very much in advance!
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