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Old 02-09-2008, 03:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Richard:
It looks like alfalfa and sheep is the first choice and horse manure and cow the second best. Now I can decide which is the cheapest. Thanks for all the good info guys.
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Old 02-10-2008, 10:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
The following data might be helpful:

Manure, Guano, etc. N - P - K
(composted)
Cow 0.2 - 0.1 - 0.2
Steer 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.4
Horse 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.6
Sheep 0.7 - 0.3 - 0.9
Sea Bird 1 - 10 - 1
Chicken 1.1 - 0.8 - 0.5
Shredded Alfalfa 2 - 0 - 3
Rabbit 2.4 - 1.4 - 0.6
Desert Bat 8 - 4 - 1
High-Nitrogen Sea Bird 13 – 12 - 2

Of these, "Sea Bird" and "Chicken" have the worst profiles for banana plants.

Source: http://www.frostconcepts.com/horticu...d_all_that.pdf
According to your chart, chicken manure has more N, but also more P and K, but not that much more of each compared to rabbit, bat, and hi-nitro sea bird poop. I don't understand why it is the worst profile...

Chicken manure also has less accumulated salts than steer manure. Regular sea bird poop (not hi-nitro) seems to be a good profile for phosphorus and not too much nitrogen.

None of them are perfectly balanced. To bring up the low K numbers you can add more kelp meal (fast release), wood ashes (a little slower), or greensand, or crushed granite (very slow release...like 5-10 years). For more P numbers, you can add bone meal, rock phosphate, or the sea bird poop (not hi-nitro).

Kelp meal (from cold water kelp) will also have all the trace minerals and elements. Warm water kelp meal may contain mercury so be aware.

All these numbers are estimates and the actual material you use may have more or less than the above stated graph. Go to 10 websites to compare and you'll find 10 different N,P, and K numbers for the materials listed. A good soil analysis will tell you what it is you're lacking.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:23 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Richard:
It looks like alfalfa and sheep is the first choice and horse manure and cow the second best. Now I can decide which is the cheapest. Thanks for all the good info guys.
Is it really the cheapest and more effective? Looks to me like going through all the math and all the effort to mix and match manure stuff, I would have thought that waiting for a sale on MiracleGro or MirAcid from the local Home Depot, Lowe's, or local garden supply store(MiracleGro-$9.49/10 lbs. on Sale, $14.99 Reg.; Vigoro $6.99/10lbs. on Sale, $9.99 Reg.) would be a lot more cost effective and convenient. Unless, of course, you're into this organic gardening stuff. And I wouldn't want to stop anyone from wanting to use organic stuff. But for economic and logistical issues, unless you have an unlimited source for the manure, I would question the practicality of going through the exercise of figuring which one is better to use, if you in fact will still have to buy and haul the stuff. And the mess!

It's a different thing is you have a convenient source at your disposal. If so, looking at the composition of the various manure products, one thing that stands out is that all of them are extremely lacking in Potassium. So, you'd still have to augment the material with it. If this were back home where I was growing up, all we'd do is burn a lot of leaves and grass and mix the ashes with the manure. Ah-h-h-h, but burning grass and leaves is no longer legal anywhere in this country, unless under certain conditions, but which still require a burn permit.
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Old 02-10-2008, 11:53 PM   #44 (permalink)
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According to your chart, chicken manure has more N, but also more P and K, but not that much more of each compared to rabbit, bat, and hi-nitro sea bird poop. I don't understand why it is the worst profile...
An ideal ratio would be 16-1-24. Chicken manure is too high in P and too low in K by comparison.

Reading the directions on Miracle-Gro, it needs to be applied on a regular basis. Last I checked it was $20 to $35 per pound of Nitrogen depending on which version you buy. The price of the bag is far less important than the percentage of fertilizer per dollar.

Interesting fact about Miracle-Gro, it is manufactured by the same company and at the same factories as Scotts, Vigoro, Grow-More, Spectrum, Dyna-Grow, and several more. The company? Ray-O-Vac.
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:54 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Latest news:
I finally spread my soil. I just approximate the bark, sand, 1/4" rock , compost and clay (native soil) and mixed it with shovel. I will then compute and put the fertilizer later on good for bananas and for citrus. Meanwhile I'll let the soil settle and come Spring time, it's planting time. Thank you so much for a lot of input guys. I am learning a lot here. The ultimate decision will be mine of course depending on the availability of the materials and go on from there. Thanks guys.



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Old 02-11-2008, 01:25 AM   #46 (permalink)
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..............
Reading the directions on Miracle-Gro, it needs to be applied on a regular basis. Last I checked it was $20 to $35 per pound of Nitrogen depending on which version you buy. The price of the bag is far less important than the percentage of fertilizer per dollar.
MiracleGro(24-8-16) on Sale @$9.49/10 lbs would have 2.4 lbs. of N per 10 lb. box, this would translate to $9.49/2.4 lbs. = $3.95 per pound N. Vigoro(12-5-8) on Sale @$6.99/20lbs. (Not 10 lbs as I earlier quoted. I just checked the remaining bags I have from L.A. I brought these when I had a project there, and placed them in my luggage. Home Depot doesn't sell them here in Seattle). Therefore, a bag would also have 2.4 lbs. of N per bag, which calculates to $6.99/2.4 = $2.91 per pound of N. Did I figure that correctly?

You will just have to decide for yourself, if the cost, hauling and mixing, and time and equipment is worth it, even if the cost of the fertilizer itself is cheaper than the above.

The application of the Vigoro is once every two months, since it's mixed with the soil. MiracleGro is a soluble material and is applied once every two weeks in the growing season and once a month during the cold season.

Quote:
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Interesting fact about Miracle-Gro, it is manufactured by the same company and at the same factories as Scotts, Vigoro, Grow-More, Spectrum, Dyna-Grow, and several more. The company? Ray-O-Vac.
This is a surprise to me. I had seen labels and/or articles that said that Bayer-Pursell manufactured Vigoro, and Scott Company made MiracleGro and Shultz products. While certain lawn and garden products, including insecticides, with the labels: NuGro, Vigoro, Shultz, Bandini, Peters, etc. are made by a company under United Industries. Maybe Ray-O-Vac owns United Industries. I know that if you Google Vigoro, several of the above companies will appear on the main menu, most notably, Bandini.
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:42 AM   #47 (permalink)
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MiracleGro(24-8-16) ... Vigoro(12-5-8) ... Did I figure that correctly?
Yes, you've made my day as a math professor. That particular formulation of Miracle Gro I haven't seen. My issue with the Brand is the labeling on the back often leads to the fact the formulation is weaker than actually stated on the front.

A larger issue with these products for bananas is the disproportionate amounts of Nitrogen to Potash. You'd like the percentages reversed! There is also extra Phosphorus which will largely be ignored by the plant and if buffered by acidic soil will eventually go "downhill".

Quote:
Originally Posted by chong View Post
I know that if you Google Vigoro, several of the above companies will appear on the main menu, most notably, Bandini.
Bandini's claim to fame is the long-term contracts at several metropolitan sewage treatment centers, notably Los Angeles.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:57 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Good job, Benny. I think for your lowest cost fertilizer, stick with Joe's recipe and the K-Mag you got from me. I can get N products more readily than the K-Mag if I have enough advance notice so let me know if you're in the area.

You mention running a gas line eventually. I am in the same boat as you but my long term plan is to eventually heat with buried pipe and circulating hot water. This takes care of the cold soil problems Richard mentioned earlier as well. The supplier I sent you other information on preivously sells tubing that I mgiht consider for this purpose but I don't think I'll get around to that until this summer.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:18 AM   #49 (permalink)
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[quote=bencelest;29182]Latest news:
The ultimate decision will be mine of course depending on the availability of the materials and go on from there. Thanks guys.

Harvey:
Yes, I am leaning heavily towards using the fertilizer Joe and I got from you because I got them now and available and besides it is the cheapest and premium fertilizer that I can get anywhere. The proportion is different if I will use it for citrus and bananas but I already got the tripple 16 except the nitrate that Joe suggested as an additive for a perfect fertilizer.
But I am anxious to learn more and I have an open mind to the lively discussion being hold here from these intelligent fellows. It is very promising to listen. And I am learning a lot and compiling them on my permanent notebook.
And I thank you for picking up the pisang Klotek and the kenandrian and lacatan down South. Once I got the 2nd pup of I forgot the ones you mentioned it will be yours.
I am also will wait till this Summer maybe Autumn to initiate the gas lines and pipings . My main concern now is to plant my bananas and citrus and to protect them from the elements.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:27 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Thanks, Benny. The Khandarin pup of mine died, maybe I over-watered it. My indoor growing room was a bit crowded, to say the least, and I was not always able to check moisture very well when watering. I think I should get them moved into my greenhouse by the end of the week after I have it heated and have functional vents.

By the way, my small Ae Ae is putting out its second new leaf right now since your visit and my second largest one has put out a huge new leaf. Still waiting on the largest one.

I still can't get over the size of that Ppisang Klotek "pup" Mitchel gave you in that contest!
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:31 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Yeah, me too. And the lacatan from Jon, and the enano gigante from Joe........
Oh, well......Life is wonderful........
BTW I just emailed Going Bananas nursery in Florida and ask for the viente cohol if available and can be shipped to California.
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:51 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Benny, this has been a lively discussion ... which I'll verify happens almost every day at the nursery!

The cheapest approach for bananas is one cup per month of Spectrum brand Triple 16 along with a 1/4 cup of K-Mag or similar ~(0-0-24). The Spectrum product is buffered, so there is less salt build up. You have plenty of drainage, so it's not an issue. I would also add a careful amount seaweed extract three times per year to keep the micronutrients going. The labeling on the Grow-More product is excellent. This works out to about $3 per plant per year.

There are folks who react quite strongly to the idea of "chemically refined" nutrients. The answer for their banana plants is 3.5 cubic feet of well-composted horse manure and a gallon or so of wood ash per year. Horse manure is usually available free at stables that offer horse riding lessons. When you explain to them that seaweed extract is made by the same equipment used to produce olive oil, they'll usually go along with that as a micronutrient supplement. If you count gasoline costs and do your own labor, this is around $5 per plant.

For those who are willing to invest in premium fertilizers, there are a few manufacturers with products containing a full spectrum of nutrients in well-thought proportions, plus humic acids and often mycorrhizal fungus spores. Most brands are granulars but some are liquid. The brands Gro-Power and Dr. Earth are examples in the western U.S. For commercial agriculture, Gro-Power is available by the truckload at $5 to $7 per tree per year. For us lowly consumers, you'll likely find it at what works out to be $12 to $14 per tree per year.

I have observed all three approaches over the years: at my residence(s), other home gardens, and commercial agriculture. When good agricultural practices are in place, the first two approaches will produce healthy, fruitful plants/trees and the third will produce remarkably healthy and productive plants that most people never see.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:12 PM   #53 (permalink)
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An ideal ratio would be 16-1-24. Chicken manure is too high in P and too low in K by comparison.
And I thought a balanced (15-15-15) was s'posed to be ideal. Man, where'd I get my information? Wouldn't you want a higher number than 1 for your P ammendments even if not all the way to 15?

I believe one material is not perfect and I always blend many nutrients into my beds. I use bat, chicken, steer, horse and worm poop, compost, kelp meal, blood meal, bone meal, wood ashes, alfalfa, and the trub, yeast, and grains from my brewery. I have yet to bring home the greensand, but I do have some decomposed granite instead that'll go in this year. Oh, and don't forget the crushed oyster shells and gypsum treatments already in...

Quote:
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(snip)unless you have an unlimited source for the manure, (snip)
Meet Pete!

If you look closly, you'll see his by-proucts under the bananas...

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There is no excuse for still having grass. I haven't mowed in 20 years. With all that space, I could plant another 100 bananas.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:58 PM   #54 (permalink)
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... Wouldn't you want a higher number than 1 for your P ammendments even if not all the way to 15?
Inkcube gave us the low-down in the thread on Fertilization. It's just the agronomic info I'd been scouring the literature for! Here's the link: Fertilization:
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Old 02-12-2008, 12:47 AM   #55 (permalink)
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And I thought a balanced (15-15-15) was s'posed to be ideal. Man, where'd I get my information? Wouldn't you want a higher number than 1 for your P ammendments even if not all the way to 15?

I believe one material is not perfect and I always blend many nutrients into my beds. I use bat, chicken, steer, horse and worm poop, compost, kelp meal, blood meal, bone meal, wood ashes, alfalfa, and the trub, yeast, and grains from my brewery. I have yet to bring home the greensand, but I do have some decomposed granite instead that'll go in this year. Oh, and don't forget the crushed oyster shells and gypsum treatments already in...



Meet Pete!

If you look closly, you'll see his by-proucts under the bananas...

There are a lot of gardeners that advocate a balanced fertilizer ratio, i.e., 10-10-10, 5-5-5, etc. If you use a weaker solution than what's on the label, you can be sure to get pretty reasonable results, without burning your plants. But because the P component is relatively high, there is a risk of over fertilizing many plants because they normally do not require as much of the P as say, roses. Chrysanthemums for one, require very high K than N, and even less of the P component. I bought over 150 lbs. of 'Mums special mix by Peters(14-8-27) to use for my bananas and other fruit bearing plants. Last year, I had my daughter water my plants via my E-Z Flo thru the hose automatic plant feeder. When I came back from CA after three months, I found my green house plants with almost all yellow leaves, with the yard plants not too far behind on the yellow leaves. I then started using my old bucket system using MirAcid (30-10-10) and within a little over a week or so, the leaves turned green to almost 90%. My prized Joy Perfume plants started to show buds again.

Some time ago(before the internet was invented by Al Gore), I read something that stuck to my mind, where the iideal ratio for bananas was 2-1-4. I looked and I looked and found that most citrus and avocado formutions were close to this. Then one day, I was checking out the Mellinger catalog from OH, and there it was - a formula for hydroponics: 12-8-21. They guaranteed it will not burn any plant.

Well, I can't argue with Pete. As a kid, again, this was what we used to feed roses. I remember that, as embarrassing as it was, we had to collect road apples along a 10 block radius around our house for my Mom's roses. And we didn't even have to compost them. We just gaged how much to put on each plant. And you should see the size of them roses. Even though, roses are hard to grow in the Philippines because it is too hot!

You see, up until the late mid-60's, the more popular mode of transportation at my Mom's hometown, where I went to high school 225 miles south of Manila, was horse drawn carriage, that we call the "Calesa" or the "Carritela" (2 different styles of carriages). They usually have a sack to catch the poop, but the drivers don't bother to empty them until they go home. So, throughout the day, they overflow all over the place. Picking them up then, in retrospect, was our contribution to community service, since we were minimizing street litter. Though we did not collect the mashed ones (LOL).

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Old 02-12-2008, 10:06 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Nice story Chong. 225 miles from Manila must be one of the islands then. You have to cross the sea. But riding the ferry is a wonderful experience seeing on your journey thousands of coconuts and bananas waving on the shore. And seeing the virgin white sand on the beach wish you to jump and wade to reach the beach. But you have another 7,000 more islands to cross.

I am letting the soil settle down and 'conditioned' before I transplant my citrus and bananas at my plat. Meanwhile I will use it as a temporary refuge for my plants.







And to simplify Inkcube's recipe:


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Default Re: Fertilization:
I figured it out differently:
N=10 cups
P= 1 cup
K= 13 cups
Thanks Inkcube for a very important lesson.
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:23 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Inkcube gave us the low-down in the thread on Fertilization. It's just the agronomic info I'd been scouring the literature for! Here's the link: Fertilization:
Thanks Richard (and Inkcube...). I've been using the wrong information all along. This year, I'll have to adjust my ferts accordingly.
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Old 02-12-2008, 10:40 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bencelest View Post
(snip) I am letting the soil settle down and 'conditioned' before I transplant my citrus and bananas at my plat. Meanwhile I will use it as a temporary refuge for my plants.


And to simplify Inkcube's recipe:

N=10 cups
P= 1 cup
K= 13 cups
Thanks Inkcube for a very important lesson.
Looking good, Benny!! I'm looking forward to seeing the finished project!

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(snip) Well, I can't argue with Pete. As a kid, again, this was what we used to feed roses. I remember that, as embarrassing as it was, we had to collect road apples along a 10 block radius around our house for my Mom's roses. And we didn't even have to compost them. We just gaged how much to put on each plant. And you should see the size of them roses. Even though, roses are hard to grow in the Philippines because it is too hot!

You see, up until the late mid-60's, the more popular mode of transportation at my Mom's hometown, where I went to high school 225 miles south of Manila, was horse drawn carriage, that we call the "Calesa" or the "Carritela" (2 different styles of carriages). They usually have a sack to catch the poop, but the drivers don't bother to empty them until they go home. So, throughout the day, they overflow all over the place. Picking them up then, in retrospect, was our contribution to community service, since we were minimizing street litter. Though we did not collect the mashed ones (LOL).

Great story Chong!! I can't blame you for passing on the squashed ones...:2780:
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There is no excuse for still having grass. I haven't mowed in 20 years. With all that space, I could plant another 100 bananas.
My new hero...


Last edited by microfarmer : 02-12-2008 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 02-12-2008, 03:59 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Nice story Chong. 225 miles from Manila must be one of the islands then. You have to cross the sea. But riding the ferry is a wonderful experience seeing on your journey thousands of coconuts and bananas waving on the shore. And seeing the virgin white sand on the beach wish you to jump and wade to reach the beach. But you have another 7,000 more islands to cross.

I am letting the soil settle down and 'conditioned' before I transplant my citrus and bananas at my plat. Meanwhile I will use it as a temporary refuge for my plants.
No, Benny it's not quite one of the islands. Just the southernmost area of Luzon (well, I guess it's still an island). It's in Naga City, Camarines Sur. The closest beaches around have black sand, unfortunately. But just so as not to be off-topic, the roads to the beaches from the city are lined with all kinds of bananas. At least 50% of them are Saba and Sabang-Dikit(Praying hands). This is because the Saba has greater commercial use for small land owners. As you may know, Saba is used to make banana-que and chips. Also, in Bicol the have a dish called "linupak", a combination of mashed green Saba, 3/4 ripe coconut, and brown sugar or panocha. The appearance is like poi, only a lot more sticky and firm. So, you're wearing dentures - beware!

If you really want paper white sands, they are in the Batanes Islands, way up north of Luzon.

An interesting thing about "linupak" is that the boiled banana pulp is is mashed in a mortar and pestle made of wood. The same one used for pounding on dried out rice to remove the hull. Wow! That's another whole lot of stories there from when I was a kid.
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:16 PM   #60 (permalink)
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No, Benny it's not quite one of the islands. Just the southernmost area of Luzon (well, I guess it's still an island). It's in Naga City, Camarines Sur. The closest beaches around have black sand, unfortunately. But just so as not to be off-topic, the roads to the beaches from the city are lined with all kinds of bananas. At least 50% of them are Saba and Sabang-Dikit(Praying hands). This is because the Saba has greater commercial use for small land owners. As you may know, Saba is used to make banana-que and chips. Also, in Bicol the have a dish called "linupak", a combination of mashed green Saba, 3/4 ripe coconut, and brown sugar or panocha. The appearance is like poi, only a lot more sticky and firm. So, you're wearing dentures - beware!

If you really want paper white sands, they are in the Batanes Islands, way up north of Luzon.

An interesting thing about "linupak" is that the boiled banana pulp is is mashed in a mortar and pestle made of wood. The same one used for pounding on dried out rice to remove the hull. Wow! That's another whole lot of stories there from when I was a kid.
[IMG][/IMG]
Thanks for correcting me. I did not know that. And yes, I think I tasted linupac before but in one of the islands I went to. Cagayan de Oro.
And also I smiled when you mentioned the one ingredient of linupak. It appears to me that it has different meaning here but I am not sure.

I am going to get more compost today because I think the mix needs more of it.
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