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Last California Gold of the year!!!
I would hate to see someone unworthy end up with this Banana!!! Get it while it lasts, LAST ONE OF THE SEASON!!! Whoever gets it, let me know how it does!:banana_ba Equal hardiness as Basjoo??? I don't think so. But who knows, still a GREAT plant.
http://cgi.ebay.com/California-Gold-...QQcmdZViewItem |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Why would you say that?? I really don't think they say it's as cold hardy as a Basjoo?...."Unworthy" .....I don't understand what you mean by that? How many different Varieties of Bananas have you Raised?
Frank |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Not unworthy of having it, just not able to take care of it. I want it to be taken care of (sounds so stupid). I think all the people on Bananas.org are worthy, definately! But me, I don't know...I don't have any space to put it during the winter, or I might overwater, butall yall experts would have space, and probably would do great with the CG. On the page, it says has equal hardiness as the Basjoo:eek: .... PLMK what you think about that statement.
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Hmmm, let me reword this as the previous attempt I made came across as a bit rude. I'm a skeptic when it comes to undocumented claims - too many people are taken advantage of and lose a lot of money in hopes of finding their personal holy grail - in this case a cold hardy nanner - and the internet just magnifies that dilemna . The only documentation on CG that I've been able to find, even here: http://webebananas.com/bvar-C-D.html - is basically the seller's words. Except, of course, for other CG owners here on the forum kindly piping in with personal experiences with it, which indicates that it does have a decent level of cold hardiness - tho for Zone 8, jury is still out unless someone from that zone would please mention their experience with this nanner. So, lack of documentation excepting sales pitch and conflicting kinda threw a wrench in the works for me and raised a red flag, especially since it's such an obscure nanner. Indeed, "Texas Star" also claims extraordinary stem hardiness here in Texas - yet everyone I talked to that owned one indicated that it dies down to the ground every winter, contradicting the claim. So, on the internet, it pays to take things with a big grain of salt...
Nevetheless, Hass avocado's was a sport discovered by a man, as was the original sweet nanner which was a sport from a plantain field south of the border, IIRC. So, it's not unreasonable for this too to be a sport off a known cultivar that's a bit hardier and this fella got lucky and got the last one before the source dried up (I wonder how many others are out there growing). It's just that on face value, it meets the criteria of caution for me. Now that I've seen testamony from others who have purchased this nanner and experienced it's cold hardiness, that caution is a bit... lessened. As a Zone 8 resident, I'd like to hear from others in my zone about their experiences with this nanner vs perhaps the likes of orinoco, rajapuri and other cold resistant nanners... More hardiness means less effort for protecting in this zone, which here is always a win-win scenario and worth the $30+ or so... His is growing in a very protected area tho - which makes me wonder what micro-climates I can create here to increase some of my nanner's hardiness. I'm impressed by his macadamia nut tree!!!! Mine doesn't like the Texas heat so much, unfortunately, but now that it's cooling down there's finally more growth coming out. Cheers, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
I have basjoo and California Gold growing in pots and left them outside for the winter about three years ago. Potted plants are more susceptible to cold than when planted inground. Musa Basjoo died to the ground level and never came back while California Gold's stem remained intact and was among the first ones to sprout leaves during the late winter. Non-scientific tests. I bought about 85 known cultivars of bananas, spent around $2000 to collect them all, and when my wife booted me out of the third car garage, I left them all out in the cold winter, still potted. Only 24 plants survived that single non-replicated episode of non-scientific experiment. So without much ado, here's the result of my $2,000.00 worth of information:
Here's the listing of cold hardy bananas at their pseudostem during the winter. Arranged from the most reliable producer or cold hardiest to the milder ones, but all should be cold hardy at their pseudostems in most winters in zone 9. WARNING: Your mileage could vary depending on your microclimate arrangement in your yard. •California Gold •Thousand Fingers •Monkey Fingers •Orinoco •Brazilian •Golden Rhinohorn •Dwarf Orinoco •Dwarf Brazilian •Misi Luki •Mysore •Namwah •Rajah Puri (best tasting but often chokes) •Manzano •Ice Cream •Gold Finger •Dwarf Namwah •Sweetheart (FHIA 3, best tasting cavendish, cold hadiest among the cavendish types) •Namwah Pearl •Praying Hands •Saba •Cardaba •Williams •Belle •Valery |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Woah JoeReal,
That is VERY impressive. Ever gotten any fruit from CG? If so, was it as good as they claim? |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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I have 1.5 gallons of California Gold Wine Sherry aging. I can already see that it will be one awesome sherry wine. After all the filtering perhaps in two more months, I should net out about 4 bottles of California Gold Sherry wine. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Thanks JOE!! Very good Information!! I am still a Beginner Myself and love to read about Information by people like youself, who have "Real" experience raising our favorite Fruit!!
T H A N K S !!! :D Frank |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Cool. I have most of those, but would not dream of leaving them unprotected here in Zone 8. Tho surplus pups may be sacrificed just for curiosity's sake... I have an unidentified - perhaps a mysore - that took a 20F freeze in the greenhouse over the winter when the heater failed with nothing more than browned leaves. Lost all my vanilla to that failure tho my taro, cacao and coffee survived with little damage too, surprisingly. All free water was a solid block of ice in there that morning - I was horrified. But in the greenhouse you have a bit of latitude. A whole lot, as it turns out. Last year the same nanner resided in an unheated leanto greenhouse down in a pit that I'm converting into another greenhouse and it survived rather well down there too - just some leaf-edge damage, tho the winter was rather mild. I'm reticent about leaving it outside tho - greenhouses really add a lot to a plant's survivability by keeping air-flow down and humidity up...
And dang! That's horrible about all those nanners you lost! I hope you're able to regain your collection! Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Hi Joe- That is a great list and excellent information.
Thanks for sharing, Richard |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Hey Joe,
I'm a wine and port lover and never heard about making sherry from bananas. E-mail me if you would wiith some more info unless you want to go into it on here. Terry |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Once again, Joe comes through with some excellent info!
Thanks for posting the list! |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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http://www.bananas.org/forumdisplay.php?f=6 they're on page 2 at the moment |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Interesting post.... Especially since I am the one selling the CalGold on ebay.
I have a couple more plants doing some late summer pupping so I have 2 more than originally thought. First let me echo what Joe Real reported... CalGold may not be the best tasting banana out there it... is in my opinion better than store bought bananas.... but then again the best tasting bananas always die here in my zone 9 climate. So a good tasting banana that does well...is better than an excellent tasting banana that dies :P. The fact that I am regularly growing bananas for fruit production around here is in its self testament to its hardiness. I , like Joe tend to buy and try most any banana that claims to be hardy.... I also wasted about $2000 bucks on those trials and mostly errors. CalGold still outgrows and produces all of them.... even on those years where are winters are more like zone 8.... which seem to be happening more and more lately. The truth be known... I don't know the precise hereditary of this banana. It's fruit is generally angular ( but for some reason... not always ) and the tree is smaller than most bananas... though this can vary depending on the health of the plant and growing conditions. I once fruited one at only 4 ft .... some are as tall as 8 ft of trunk.... most are 6 to 7ft of trunk height. Anyway... In case anyone is interested... I have another for sale on ebay. Jeff ebay auction is at... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE%3AIT&rd=1 |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Terry,
The pre-fermentation steps are the same as making regular banana wine, but then there is a major difference when it comes to making sherry wine, but let me tell you what I did. Basically, I have the 6 gallon fermentation bucket, placed about 8 lbs of California Gold (combined from Mike [bananavilla] and my own CG fruits), then enough water to make 2.5 gallons, then 6 lbs of white sugar. Heat the sugar to near boling with 1 gallon water, 2 tsp citric acid, and pour over peeled and crushed California Gold bananas, wait 10 minutes and pour cool water to make total of 2.5 gallons. When temp has cooled down to 100 deg F or less, add pectic enzyme. When broth cools down to 90 deg F and less, then add the Flor Sherry yeast. cover the bucket and wait overnight. I then used an aquarium pump to blow tiny bubbles through a submerged stainless steel bubbler. the air is filtered as it comes out of the air pump, and is scrubbed by bubbling through a vodka solution. this is called the submerged method of making sherry wine. I bubble just about 0.2 liters of air per minute through the solution for one week. Of course, I used Sherry Flor yeast, and it makes very good aroma. After that, I transferred everything to glass gallon jugs and seal an airlock. The rest of the steps are done like you would for other wines. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
MikeVan in Texas,
You've piqued my curiosity! What kind of protection do you give your bananas in Zone 8? Are there other folks growing in Zone 9a or 9b without any protection? I have the following that I've planted out this year: Manzano, Goldfinger, Sweetheart, Raja Puri, Dwarf Orinoco, Dwarf Namwah, Misi Luki. Most are about 5 - 6 ft. tall and I've gotten rather attached to them! I originally was planning to dig them all up and cover with straw inside a tarp outside in the shade. While I'd rather leave them in the ground, I wouldn't want to lose any either. Our winter temperatures typically get down to 24 deg for about a week in Feb. Once the sun comes out, it'll quickly rise into the low 40's. Last year, it hit 21 deg one morning. It's true that at Joe's house, seeing is believing, but his situation is a little different than mine. He's got a some overhead cover with his incredible jungle of citrus. Some of his plants are against his house. Mine are out in the open at the bottom of a large hill (but as high up as our property permits). Any suggestions? |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Til this year, all I grew were a couple of unidentified dwarfs (or regular nanners that were just stunted by the containers) that resided in my greenhouse quite amicably. They did get a bit big and was a little bit of a squeeze but they didn't seem to mind tho sometimes the edges of their leaves would brown on me during nights that froze the condensation on the glazing.
This season I've gained quite a few more nanners - many that will get pretty tall like the Saba, Brazilian and Orinoco, so this will be the last nanner-greenhouse year for me, excepting for dwarfs and backup pups. I'm even raising the greenhouse up by 4' for a larger nanner of mine - all are still containerized. But I can only go so tall! This winter I'll be preparing their bed using sheet composting methods. Next Spring, all my babies are going in the ground - even the dwarfs. I'll keep backup pups and dwarfs in the greenhouse after that but I'm leaning to wrapping my trees with bubble-wrap and burlap over the winter. Shorter ones may make use of the hay insulating method too. As to what works and what doesn't - that's something I'll find out here in the next couple of years or so as I experiment... Nevertheless - I will get bananas without having to resort to the greenhouse to do so - running out of room with all my tender tropicals... The CG has gained my interest with all the glowing reports here and on Gardenweb - one of these years I may end up getting one and see just how it does here in Zone 8. Here, when an arctic front blows thru and it gets cold - which is infrequent - the nights get down to the low 20's and sometimes high teens. Days are almost always short-sleeve weather with few if any freezing days in the year. Sometimes the only freezing that ocurrs is a few nights. It's so warm during the winter that the few freezing nights really makes growing tropicals here infuriating! I'm hoping that by planting a lot of bamboo in my growing area I'll be able to create protected micro-climates to further help with protecting the nanners over the winter. I'm starting with Moso and Henon boo. I have an acre to play with until the wife lets me start playing on her half. "Gee honey, I didn't know that bamboo would spread so fast." :) I noticed that Jeff's nanners are up against his house too in a narrow alley twixt his house and his neighbor - a nice little micro-climate for certain. My nanners have both survived 20F in my greenhouse before, one year when the heater went out and last year in a temporary unheated leanto greenhouse in a pit I'm converting into a walipini - so protecting from wind and keeping humidity up is no doubt key to their survival during cold snaps. Both tank when exposed topside to the freezing cold unprotected. He's also, amazingly, growing a macadamia nut tree in his front yard! I have a yearling that's really hating the Texas heat. Sigh... What zone are you in? 9? You should require even less protection than me - perhaps the burlap-bubblewrap layering would work? When the leaves go, cover the top with a sturdy bag to keep moisture out. Zone 7 seems a popular zone to dig and store over the winter, but I don't think I can keep their storage reliably cool here and am afraid of rot because of that. Some experimentation is certainly in order - thankfully nanners pup fairly prolifically. :) Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Also, the size of the trunk would really affect survival in our area. Four of my nanners are currently unsheltered by anything except themselves: Dwarf Brazilian, California Gold, Rajah Puri, Manzano, Dwarf Orinoco, Misi Luki, Namwah.
The sheltered ones (just happened to be there) are Goldfinger, Williams Hybrid, Sweetheart, Cocos, Enano Gigante. And those that go indoors every winter are Mahoi, zebrina, Dwarf Lady Finger, Gran Nain, Namwah pearl (upcoming). I have more unlisted, and most of my other nanners I have given away to friends and they are on contract to give me a pup should I need one. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Joe... Your list on hardiness of bananas here in the valley is pretty much on par with my experiences here in Modesto....( I bet that I have spent at least 2k on experimenting as well.
My thoughts are ...plant a " Good tasting " banana that will fruit year after year... is much better than wasting money on an "excellent tasting" banana- plant that dies to the ground when the temps hit 30f Mike... I have the some of my bananas up against the house for wind protection.... much better presentation with out many shredded leaves, However the bulk of my banana growing is out in the open in lot about a mile from my house, where there is no windbreak... and the plants do just fine... though they look ratty in midwinter.... they are fully leafed out by april. BTW...If anyone is interested...I have another CalGold on ebay.... A couple of my plants are getting ready to blossum... they tend to send out a couple of pups at this time and I now have 2 extras. Jeff http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MESE%3AIT&rd=1 |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
I'd say that we're in a 9b zone. We're about 15 miles from the ocean so that moderates the winter lows. Of course, what we don't get is blistering summer heat. Most summer days start at 50 deg, get some morning cloudiness that burns off at 10:00. temps will rise to 80 and only infrequently into the 90's. Just 10 or so days over a 100. Really it's quite comfortable for living. But I don't get that explosive and sustained summer growth.
Next year, I'm going to paint my leaves each month and chart how each grows. So for me, it won't be just what survives the winter but how each grows in the cool spring and only luke-hot summer. Not that I don't believe you, Joe that my bananas will do fine this winter, I'm just a cautious type with plants I have some emotional attachment. And I don't know whether they're all thick enough for overwintering in place. I also was a bit overzealous in digging up pups to share that it might have slowed them a bit. Now, I've learned that you don't go ALL AROUND the mother plant severing pups 'cause the Mom can flop over. I think some I'll dig up and store, and the rest I'll wrap with this thick remay stuff, Agribon50 which I use to cover trees. And I guess I'll cover the top with some plastic as well. I may have the same problem as you, Mike in that we might be a bit warm for storage. But if I can get good ground contact (without moisture) it may be cold enough. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
I really think it's a bunch of BS that cg is some new variety.. California gold is just a dwarf ORINOCO. I personally wouldn't be duped into thinking it's some amazing magical variety. Members from other message boards attest to the fruit quality being identical to dwarf orinoco. Just like orinoco, cg has to be 100% ripe to be edible.
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Heck, Jeff, here in Texas with the winds, my nanners look ratty all year. I call it the Island Look (tm). :ha: I may try planting a CG up against the house - wife willing - to see how it does here in windy Zone 8 but here some sort of protection seems to be in order - I just don't trust our winters - unless Global Warming blesses me with even warmer winters. :) However, with lotsa bamboo going in soon, I hope they'll form a sufficient windbreak to allow a micro-climate to form to make it easier to winterize my nanners. Fingers crossed... At face value, I have to admit to some skepticism about CG, but with all the glowing reports from other growers here and on Gardenweb, I'm now more curious than anything. Perhaps it'll be on my list next year...
Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Why would you come here making "Statements" like the above without any Proof?? Where is your Proof that a CG is an "Orinoco" ??? How many years of testing have you conducted?? Frank |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Joe Real's observation is right on when he said..CG fruit tastes like Saba... Maybe Calif Gold is just a Dwarf Saba?... who knows. Jeff |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Take a look at the plant and fruit morphology of orinoco and the supposed california gold. If you make an honest comparison you will see they are the same plants.
Hey I gotta give the guy on ebay credit for successfully marketing orinoco as california gold and he has made some serious cash $$ over the past year. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Just how honest a comparison? Orinoco gets to around 10' in decent conditions, taller in more ideal conditions. BigDog's in Zone 7 were going past 9' - look at his nifty Winterizing Tutorial. This CG gets to 5-6', in the ground in a nice area according to the news-video coverage - with fruit you actually have to reach down to pick. Watch the video! Do I need to hold one eye closed, or spin around in circles rapidly to make them look more the same? You do know that you're talking to people who are banana-growers and collectors and enthusiasts, don't you? Some who do indeed grow both the CG and Orinoco.
And I don't see Jeff getting rich off this alledged scam of his that you seem to assert (could that be considered libel or slander?) - it's an aweful lot of work to dig up and sell pups, and he's only sold a handful. And, these claims are easy to debunk - if his turns to mush at 32F for instance - yet experienced and respected growers are indeed claiming higher hardiness in CG than their other nanners! I went thru the skeptic route and did the research. Results? I plan on buying one next year. It may be a pup from a known nanner - but as nanners have proven to be highly variable in their genetics, by the amount of growers out there who've put this one thru the cold test, this sport does indeed stand out. 142 buyers - not many when compared to other sellers and clearly not the amount you'd expect from a professional eBay seller, but with a glowing reputation and clearly positive feedback on a product that very rapidly demostrates its true nature the first time frost rolls around - the burden of proof is now on you... Please take more care in expressing your skeptisism. Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Mike- I don't think you know who you are talking to either. Have you seen Alton Brown's Good Eats Banana show? If you have, you have seen Jeff on the show. Its his yard they start off the show in. I have known Jeff through other forums for about 4 years now and he does know what he's talking about. Just a little more information. I don't know much on whether or not Cali Gold and Orinoco are or are not the same. Not trying to start a flame war or anything.
Zac |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
That's too cool! I totally missed that show - and Alton's my hero! Well... one of them. His show cracks me up! Wow - that's pretty neat. I'll need to start scanning the re-runs now for Jeff's debut to fame... :)
Oh, I was skeptical at first until I took the time to dig in for myself and it's the research thru this and other forums that has convinced me to bid on a CG next year (or beg for one if I lose). :) That Alton Brown bit tho - wow. Just plain Wow. Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
All I can say is LOVED that "Good Eats" episode. (Love AB, always!!!) That was so cool to see Jeff's plants, too! Especially the Pitago's!
I have my recently aquired CG, and now, two very small pups. My first banana was an Orinoco. Normal for these parts. :) I am anxiously awaiting the first bloom of my CG! |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Jeffrey, if you can come over to our place, you can dig up a pup of CG for free! I've been offering all my CG pups for free! Never have charged anyone nor will charge anyone if they come up and dig them up. However, the line right now is 3 years long. When their time has come, I email them, and if they show up, they can get the pup for free.
To tell you frankly, in order to break even, considering how my time is worth, I would be charging more than $300 for each pup that I dig. So I never sell my banana pups on eBay nor anywhere else. So I always delight in even exchange. At times, I have given away to some colleagues and friends in this forum, just a token of a price some other pups for $1 each, definitely not enough to pay for gas to the trip to the post office. Others I simply don't have the time to cash their checks that are refund for just the postage. Why I do it, sometimes, I just want to make people happy by hoping to share the passion. It is not money that will make you happy in this very short life here on earth. No I am not a rich man. Just passionate about this hobby. I have grown CG and orinocos side by side, literally, and it doesn't take a specially talented detective to see that there are obvious glaring differences between the two, from the plant leaf patterns to fruits, their ripening and their tastes, assuming that you have the genuine articles of each cultivar. Well, if you happen to have two orinocos being compared with just the difference in label, you are 100% correct in your own wisdom. I have posted several times the major differences between CG and dwarf Orinoco all over other forums and would hate to spoon feed the same information again. I have no intention of supporting Jeff and others in their claims about CG, but just stating my keen observations. I give them away for free, so absolutely, I have no intentions of enriching myself, just wanting to share for free what I found. And yes, I hate profit making companies and do love open source style of way of life, that is why I give away all my CG pups for free. Regards, Joe Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
BTW, with most bananas that I got, mislabeling have been a rampant problem, and it could happen to anyone, it happened to me, 25% of the time, and perhaps especially Jeffrey, in his quest for CG but got O instead...
Most mislabeling may not have really been intentional, especially when you have thousands of plants zipping by in tissue culture industries. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
If you want to compare sizes of plants, I think you didn't realize that orinoco has a dwarf form and large form. For you to say CG grows 5-6' and orinoco grows to 10' isn't a true statement. The orinoco dwarf form grows to - wow the same height as cg...hmm makes you wonder..
Bananas can grow stronger and healthier if they are planted in better soil and have better sun exposure. I can take some pictures of KRU bananas in my yard that are grown in cramped conditions and some that are planted out in the open in well fertilized soil. I can attest that bananas grown in poor soil, or otherwise poor growing conditions will taste (at some level) different than those in ideal growing conditions. I am sure that an orinoco (dwarf or tall form) would produce fruit of lessor quality if grown in poor conditions as well. Like I said before, CG is an orinoco... Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Hi Zac,
Here's the transcript (and some pics) from the show.. http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Seaso.../topbanana.htm I have been growing banana plants for over 20 years, and I think I have learned a couple things about bananas/plantains :0520: along the way.. :bananabeard: 20 years of growing bananas down here in zone 10 south florida is like 40 years of growing bananas up north. I used to go scuba diving with a friend from up north. He said he had 20 years of experience scuba diving, but the extent of his diving was maybe 5-10 trips during the summer. Diving down here is an all year type of thing, where one can obtain ALOT of experience. I probably dive 20+ times a year down here. The point I am getting at is experience is all relative. Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Joe I wasn't talking about you...I was referring to the guys on ebay selling them as if they are some unique banana species. Orinoco has been grown in California forever. I have several orinoco types in my yard - dwarf, tall orinoco, monthan, & bluggoe.. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
There is a little something called being specific. Dwarf Orinoco != Orinoco when discussing differences of variety and form to people who collect bananas. I have both. To me, they're different nanners. If a person means dwarf orinoco, I expect them to say, "dwarf orinoco". If I want to buy an orinoco, I do not expect to receive a dwarf, for instance. Communication - it's a challenge but worth mastering.
Do you grow the CG too? Have you taken the time and effort to compare them for yourself? If so, why did you not present this as a critique rather than jumping on board and very shortly and rudely slamming someone with no display of evidence? If not, why do you think you're an authority on what the CG is or is not? It is far easier to believe a person if he/she were to come on board and display their opinion backed by their experiences with something than just to basically dash in and tell everyone they're being duped and scammed. Be aware tho - I don't grow CG. However, I recognize the sporting tendancy of bananas, even among "clones". You're making a claim and at first fairly rudely so, without anything to substantiate it. Not a good way to convince people... I think the biggest problem is not your skeptisism which, in this world, is a healthy thing, but rather it's the rude way it was displayed. Questioning a source is no problem at all - no one should go into something blind. But coming out of the blue and saying "I think it's total outright BS. California gold is just an ORINOCO. Don't be duped." perhaps was not the best approach, especially in a forum of respected growers who indeed are growing CG and now feel that you're calling them gullable and "duped". Now, as to what the banana is or is not, Jeff himself has mentioned that he has little information on the genetic source of this particular plant - it was pretty much a mystery nanner when he first got it. He noted properties in it that he found desireable - a higher level of hardiness - that he now shares with others - and is by no means getting rich on it. JoeReal has grown both and himself noted that CG is hardier than both orinoco and dwarf orinoco (not to mention morphologically different). So - what if it is a sport of an orinoco? What's the problem with that? Within varieties of bananas there are genetic changes happening all the time. Momoese has a nanner that may be developing variegation. If Jeff has found what turns out to be a hardier orinoco from the regular orinoco, what problem do you see that he sells it? Most of the nanners we grow are fairly closely related and are sports. After all, dwarf is a short version and being sold seperately because, well, it's shorter - yet you yourself still call the dwarf by it's regular name unless prompted to specify. All in all - no one knows exactly where CG came from, and no one will know for certain the genetic lineage until someone puts forward the money for tests. That said, this is a nanner - Orinoco, Saba, whatever - that's seemingly gained a higher level of hardiness, as evidenced by not only Jeff, but many other growers too. If you have done some tests and have information to illuminate this sport in relation to what you feel to be it's twin - the Orinoco - sharing those results would be a nice way to discuss your skeptisism, methinks. Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Er, is that Jeff of CG fame, or Jeffrey who disputes CG? All these Jeff's are confusing the Dicken's out of me! Tho Alton is still my hero and I drool over Rachel Ray. :)
Cheers, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Mike- The Jeff I was referring to is jeffreyp ( Jeffrey Picazio). I will also say I have no opinion one way or the other on this debate. I don't grow any orinoco( dwarf or otherwise) or Cali Gold......Yet. :bananas_b
Zac |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Well, despite his... abrupt... entry into this forum, I still think that is way cool, all differences in opinion aside! :)
Be well, Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
My comments were never meant to be a slam or derogatory against you or anyone on this board - take a deep breath and relax.. It's my opinion that CG is an orinoco type. I agree communication can be challenging sometimes... When someone comes over and asks for a glass of water is that an endless conversation in your home? Would you like a tall glass or short glass? Was that mineral or sparkling water? Did you want it on ice or without ice...gotta be specific now...lol
I think it's not good economic to buy a CG on ebay often selling them for 40 - 60 dollars per plant when you can buy an orinoco for 10-20 dollars. Even If CG was a sport of orinoco, most people outside of those marginal growing areas in california wouldnt see a benefit to growing cg anyhow. Actually banana plants rarely sport. FHIA and other organizations often induce sporting in TC with chemicals or radiation because sporting is so uncommon with field grown plants. It's also why FHIA spends ALOT of time searching for seeds in their banana fruits they have manually pollinated. If sporting was a common occurance, this would be another way to obtain useful varieties. This is why there are huge problems with fungal diseases such as black sigatoka, panama disease, bacterial wilt, nematodes, etc. Take a look at these articles.. http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=1597 http://www.newscientist.com/article/...o-bananas.html Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Jeffrey,
Yes, sometimes people do get overboard, especially when it comes to selling. Unless genetic tests are run, nothing would really be conclusive aside from genetic tests. I myself have seen also variations in heights of CG, from 4 ft to 10 ft pseudostem fruiting height, from various friends and places, even from the same clump, yearly variations I observed in fruiting height, but is true with other bananas. I suspect that CG, Orinoco and Saba all are triploids composed of ABB genome. Bananas mutate a lot, especially CG when multiplied with TC methods, that is why it is unreliable when sold as TC'ed plants. So price remained high just like the Ae-ae which has the same TC problems. But techniques are improving, and prices will come down someday. I still wish for true genetic tests. Regards, Joe Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Then I guess I am a banana expert...( I am not ) My work with bananas grown in marginal climates has been featured on no less than 6 TV programs and 6 different newspapers and in the Journal of the California rare fruit growers. You whine ( ie " Its very questionable ) because I list Cal Gold for a friggin starting bid $29? Its in no way my fault if the bidding sometimes hits $50 or $60... Its supply and demand... I only sell less than ten a year. I am a honest backyard grower...Who has often spent more than $29 each on most of my mail order banana plants ( a little less for spindly TC plants.) My auction descriptions are truthful ... straight forward and honest. I list a brief history, a description of of the plant and how well it performs in my garden. Along with a video showing them being aired on live TV loaded with fruit...After a winter where our temps had dropped to 25f! no less) what more can you ask for? Others have shared with you similar results that I have. I have never heard anything other than good things about CalGold ( A big deal since many people who buy plants from me have such a brown thumb they can't even grow crabgrass ) So lets chill out. We are supposed to be sharing the knowledge we have ... not spouting off. At least you must have went back and reread my ebay auction. You'll see that I offer my opinion as to it being related to the orinoco, blugoe, Ice Cream family. I might also add... that it also resembles Saba and and Cardaba as well. And It is cold hardy! I will do this... If you want to run your own genetic tests.... I will provide you a free tissue sample... you can have it analyzed for your self if it would make you happy.... but to be honest. In side by side comparesons... They don't look exactly like any other banana I have grown. And they taste different as well. By the way... In my nearly thirty years of banana experimentation... I have seen banana mutation with my own eyes. It happens...I'm no scientist.. but I have seen it. Enough said from me. Jeff Earl |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Hey Jeff,
Check all of my posts..I personally have NEVER insinuated that being on good eats made me a banana expert. It was a fun show to participate in, and I am glad some on the board got a chance to see it and enjoy it. Nevertheless, I'm not sure how that related to your comment "We are supposed to be sharing the knowledge we have ... not spouting off." Hmm..I kinda missed your logic on that one..Anyhow.. I DO claim to know more than the average joe about banana plants since I have been growing many different varieties for over 20 years here in south florida. 20 years is like 40 years of growing bannas for those living in northern climates (we have twice the growing season). We can grow things year round outside and make observations on our plants year round. Those living up north have a short limited growing season and this limits your overall experience. Currently I have over 20 varieties and over 300 banana plants in my yard. I have yet to see unique varieties spontaneously appear via sporting..Here's a quote from the plant breeding unit of the fao/iaea "Although spontaneous mutations have contributed to the genetic diversity of Musa and significantly increased its variation, their frequency is very low." That's why most banana plants are genetically frozen in time. Hey I am happy for you that you can make that kind of money selling your plants...more power to you. Orinoco is commonly grown in Georgia, the Carolinas, Louisiana, etc where winter temps regularly and commonly hit the mid to high 20's. I have seen many a orinoco easily recover from winter temps in those areas thus I am not particularly convinced you have some new mysterious variety. I have even seen large stands of SABA as far north as Knoxville with fruit. That's why in my original post, I question the value in buying a 40 or maybe 60 dollar plant on ebay when the only benefit seems to be in a small geographical area in california. I have friends in louisiana and georgia who regularly get fruit off their orinocos (and these areas regularly experience freezing temps in the winter). Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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Todate, I only have 45 planting holes but I do have more than 355 fruiting cultivars, occupying only about 725 square ft of land. I have a world record citrus tree that I assembled and have 50 varieties on them and currently loaded with fruits on 35 cultivars. I have all of UC Riverside's blood oranges and pigmented oranges grafted together into one tree. My cherries are 2 dozen in one tree, my plums are 3 dozen to one tree, my asian pears, I have quite a collection in one tree, European pears, I only graft the best together, all of the pluots sold at retail nursery, I have them, even grapes were not forgiven when it comes to multi-grafts. My persimmons are almost ever blooming perhaps due to multi-graft interactions. And sport mutations, I will not be surprised with all of these multi-grafts. Perhaps I am very lucky to see before my eyes sport mutations of bananas, as I have seen Saba plants that bloomed and bear fruit at 5 ft pseudostem height which was taken from a clump that usually towers to 25 ft high. I suspect there are others when it comes to variegation, but variegation isn't worth that much to me when I was after the fruits, so did not pay much attention to variegation. Mutations in bananas can be induced with stress, water, temperature, pH, also fungicides, insecticides, fertilizers, biological interactions with microbes, or simply taking out the pups. It is not as fast as Poof! like in TV shows, doesn't work that way. Now right before my eyes, happening at this very moment, after plucking a pawpaw branch and planting it in a pot, amazingly that cutting grew and something is happening. Is this nutrient deficiency or pure variegated sport? the pattern of variegation looks the same as that of most variegated plants and it is happening only on one branch for now. Guess, I will have to nurture this, maybe repot it and hope the variegation stays.  There are more mutations happening left and right in this more polluted increasingly warming world. If you haven't seen anything, perhaps you needed to be more keen with your observations. In this respect, by saying that CG and Orinoco are one and the same cultivar even if all testimonies and individual evidences presented, perhaps you could tell FHIA that Gran Nain, Dwarf Cavendish, Mahoi, Williams Hybrid, Regular Cavendish are one and the same. They exactly have the same shape of fruits, same taste, same color. The major differences at the supermarket is that their labels are Bonita, Dole, Del Monte, Chiquita. LOL!!! |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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I dont think there are major differences in fruit quality\morphology in dwarf cavendish, mahoi (except double\triple flowering), regular cavendish, williams and gran naine. As matter of fact, I think fhia would be comfortable saying they are more or less the same in regards to fruit quality. That's why you have the name "cavendish" in most of those varieties (regular\giant cavendish, Double (Mahoi) Cavendish, dwarf cavendish, and gran nain is actually a cultivar of cavendish). What's been presented about CG is that it's a very different tasting banana, has different growth habits, and the fruit morphology is very different. My compliments on your extensive growing experience :bunchonanas: . The avg joe comment is an idiom...obviously not referring to you... I have been very observant of all the bananas I have grown and have yet to see a sport. I would say every day I parouse the groves.. Let me say this.. FHIA wouldn't bother with careful hand pollination and harvesting 1000's upon 1000's of fruits to find a single viable seed out all those fruits that were hand pollinated. And then after that, to go through the hastle of embryo extraction to grow that seed if sporting\natural mutations were common place among banana plants. Hence the reason why experts\plant biologists say that the banana of the supermarket has been genetically frozen in time. http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science...ccdrcrd/3.html http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=1597 http://www.newscientist.com/article/...o-bananas.html |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
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After all of those experimentations, especially from plant breeding, outstanding cultivars are actually not a rare find. The same so with mutations, from peaches to bananas, the odds previously stated by plant breeders are overblown. Just my opinions, which I can back with data and experience. |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Wrong. You are discussing apples and oranges which illuminates your lack of understanding in this area - please do some research on breeding before using that in a debate over sports and mutations. In the realm of breeding, especially where share-holders and annual budgets are at stake, no one will wait for the occasional mutation of which even there only a few are lucky in some ways unless that mutation is instigated via TC purposefully. Even then, most TC mutation goes in the trash. Purposeful crossing and research will always be the primary way to develop new fruit and resistant strains - mutations are simply too unreliable in that avenue. Hardiness will never be a priority in breeding given the existing and well established banana agricultural system. Breeding is performed with a concrete goal and a planned approach that is impossible with waiting for mutations. Mutations are just that - lucky sports. Even so, they're rarely the answer to the goals of most breeders. You'll find variegations, climactic acclimatization, diverse fruit characteristics and whatnot in sports and mutations. But the primary goal of market breeders is to maintain the generic and successful market banana as closely as possible with the goal of developing disease resistance, higher productivity and ease of harvest and maintenance as much as possible - something no one will ever achieve in a timely and cost effect manner by sitting on a lawn chair with a banana daiquiri waiting for that sport to pop up. You may have a high familiarity with the bananas immediately under your care, but I suggest you do some research into general horticultural science before proceeding down that road.
Mike Quote:
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Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
Are you a commercial grower Mike? What is your background? Maybe you didn't know this, but let me illuminate this for you. Researchers at places like fhia dont use sports because they are pathetically uncommon. Traits such disease resistance and fruit quality are qualities sought after.
The reason why they don't use mutations is because the rate of mutations in field grown bananas is very very low but to say the tc labs throw them all away is absolutely false.. . There ARE groups intentionally mutating bananas via TC for commercial purposes. http://www.iaea.or.at/programmes/ria...ue_culture.htm http://www.intl-pag.org/13/PDF/1_15_...20induction%22 http://www.scipub.net/agriculture/ba...mutations.html |
Re: Last California Gold of the year!!!
One big advantage of plant breeding in bananas is that once you have evaluated a new hybrid and found it to be acceptable, you can propagate it vegetatively. It is true that mutations are more accidental than intentional. Hybridizations and mutations occur naturally in the wild for bananas. And once a superior combo comes about, it can propagate vegetatively. We can use various approaches today, genetic enginerring, intra-species gene splicing, irradation, chemical and other stress induced mutations, and of course, the ever reliable plant breeding...
Like Mikevan have said, I wish they specifically bred for cold hardiness, but that would not be good for the tropical industries when the temperate locations can have grow their own bananas economically. Most cold hardiness are evaluated and detected by guys like us, sharing our experiences as to what worked and what did not. Sharing these information truthfully and honestly would benefit us all. Test for cold hardiness in the backyards of brave and hard headed hobbyists could not be afforded even by FHIA, but by us hobbyists, if we share the information. Our aim is not to commercially poduce bananas here in the temperate zone so as to dethrone the tropical banana industry. That's never one of the goals of backyard hobbyists, and thus we are just a niche market. So if prices of CG are somewhat exhorbitant compared to others, that's the market is, simply a niche. Coming back to the topic of CG, who knows what the original cultivar is, but through time, by continuously grown here in the central valley, it must have continuously been under selection pressure to winters of zone 9, and we have selected the most reliable fruit bearers from those originally carted off by immigrants. The taste also have changed along with it. And I suspect that there could be genetic differences now with the ancestral cultivar that was first planted here. While there are specific differences, there would still be tremendous genetic similarities, perhaps 99.99%. (The same as humans, don't be surprised if we have more than 98% similar genetic makeup as some of our non-human relatives) |
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