Here's what happens if you don't remove pups - Page 4

PR-Giants · 11-28-2012, 09:20 PM

Although I have no experience or desire to grow bananas in a colder climate, I'm still curious if the process can be improved or even if the growing period could be expanded.

During the cooler months what is the first trigger for a plant to slow growth, plant temperature above the ground or below?

I've read many times how people here add a heating pad under a pot to promote root growth.

This leads me to believe that a container of wet partially composted organic matter can easily be dried and have air introduced to increase the temperature of the roots through an aerobic process.

momoese · 11-28-2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

During the cooler months what is the first trigger for a plant to slow growth, plant temperature above the ground or below?

Above

Olafhenny · 11-28-2012, 11:39 PM

My experience is limited to Basjoo and Ornata.
Going into my third winter now with the Basjoo I have observed the following:
They keep on growing until frost damages the leaves, although at a slower pace. That may be
due to cooler temperatures, but I tend more toward believing that is has a lot more to do with
daylight hours.

I have here: Need advice to grow a banana plant indoors all winter in some detail reported
in a sequence of postings of how my Ornatas fared a year ago in waning light conditions, but at
constant temperatures.

That brings me to another observation, though anecdotal as it may be with my limited experience:
Deep rich humus does not appear to help bananas to grow better and bananas in pots or poor
soil appear to grow more pups. I have so far had only soft indications on the latter and had
actually wanted to wait before I voice that observation, which may be skewed by the fact,
that the Ornatas did very poorly outside, while overwhelmed by my 9 feet high Cannas Australia
and the Rhicinus Communis Purple New Zealand in my ‘tropical planter’
(http://www.bananas.org/f8/my-brand-n...er-15715.html).*
And because they were overwhelmed I did not notice, that anything was wrong with them until
I transplanted them back into pots inside. While the Pseudo stems either folded or are in rough
shape, they seem to be pupping quite well.

*If you open that, You see on top a picture, which was taken long before the fall ‘wrap up’. You
can see one of the Ornatas just above the petunias, still in reasonable shape and in the
background the larger leaf of a Basjoo. The New Zealand Castor Bean has after that still grown
substantially, thus drowning out the Ornatas. There is also a picture of that available)

venturabananas · 11-29-2012, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

During the cooler months what is the first trigger for a plant to slow growth, plant temperature above the ground or below?

I searched for an answer to this in published scientific papers and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps Gabe, who is more familiar with the literature knows the answer. I suspect no one has bothered to figure out the relative effects of air temperature versus soil temperature because in commercial production in the field, they are tightly correlated. Given that growth occurs at the meristem which is at the top of corm, so very close to ground level, I would guess that soil temperatures are more important than air temperatures.

venturabananas · 11-29-2012, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

[size="3"]That may be due to cooler temperatures, but I tend more toward believing that is has a lot more to do with daylight hours.

I doubt it has a LOT more to do with daylight hours. I'm sure they are both important -- you need light for photosynthesis, and within reason, more light results in more photosynthesis, and thus more potential growth. But my bananas grow faster in August than in June. There are fewer daylight hours in August than June, but it is warmer in August than June.

caliboy1994 · 11-29-2012, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

I doubt it has a LOT more to do with daylight hours. I'm sure they are both important -- you need light for photosynthesis, and within reason, more light results in more photosynthesis, and thus more potential growth. But my bananas grow faster in August than in June. There are fewer daylight hours in August than June, but it is warmer in August than June.

That explains why my plants are displaying really slow growth in November, even when conditions for growth are suitable. But I notice that if warm weather during winter is consistent, plants can begin growing again with considerable speed. This year in January we had a warm spell where daytime temperatures were in the high 70s and low 80s, and this lasted for about a week and a half. My Rajapuri put out one or two leaves then, but it took a few days for it to get going. I think that soil temperature would be a very important factor as well.

PR-Giants · 11-29-2012, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

I searched for an answer to this in published scientific papers and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps Gabe, who is more familiar with the literature knows the answer. I suspect no one has bothered to figure out the relative effects of air temperature versus soil temperature because in commercial production in the field, they are tightly correlated. Given that growth occurs at the meristem which is at the top of corm, so very close to ground level, I would guess that soil temperatures are more important than air temperatures.

There's not really an easy or inexpensive way for someone to effectively raise the temperature of the ground surrounding the corm. A GSHP probably will not raise the temperature high enough to stimulate growth.

Olafhenny · 11-29-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

I suspect no one has bothered to figure out the relative effects of air temperature versus soil temperature because in commercial production in the field, they are tightly correlated. Given that growth occurs at the meristem which is at the top of corm, so very close to ground level, I would guess that soil temperatures are more important than air temperatures.

I have no idea, how that applies to tropical plants. But here in the more frigid north, the rule
is simple: Plants grow toward warmth. In fall, when the ground is warmer than the air the
impetus of growth heads down. I.e. the sap retracts from the leaves in the trees and they drop
off. The nutrients from the sap then go into the roots and develop them. That is why the best
time to plant things here is the autumn. It gives the roots time to establish themselves, before
in spring, when the air is again warmer than the soil, new growth bursts upward into greening,
blooms and eventually fruit. Of course there are also seasons in the tropics, but I would surmise,
that they would be more complex and locally diverse, governed by rainy and dry seasons etc.

As a PS to my previous post I would like to add, that I never start wintering my Basjoos, until
after the first frost has damaged the leaves. The much thicker Pseudo stem is then still sound.

Olafhenny · 11-29-2012, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

I doubt it has a LOT more to do with daylight hours. I'm sure they are both important -- you need light for photosynthesis, and within reason, more light results in more photosynthesis, and thus more potential growth. But my bananas grow faster in August than in June. There are fewer daylight hours in August than June, but it is warmer in August than June.

Well read my report on the performance of my Ornatas in waning daylight hours and at constant
thermostat controlled temperatures. I am not claiming that to be the definitive answer, but clearly
a strong indicator in this particular case since daylight hours are the only thing that changed, while
the growth slowed.

In the tropics daylight hours are roughly constant 12hrs on - 12hrs off. That state is not even reached until
~Sept 21st.

So the June to August comparison is of doubtful importance

venturabananas · 11-29-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

In the tropics daylight hours are roughly constant 12hrs on - 12hrs off. That state is not even reached until
~Sept 21st.

So the June to August comparison is of doubtful importance

Given that I don't live in the tropics (34 degrees north), it is a fact that there are more daylight hours in June than August, yet my bananas consistently grow faster in August than June. The average temperature is warmer in Aug than June. Thus, I conclude that in this situation, temperature differences, not daylight differences are driving growth rate. The response of banana growth rate to temperature is well documented in the literature. That is not to say that day length, or more generally, light exposure is not important, too.

Going Bananas · 07-17-2015, 02:17 AM

BUMP....

Resurrecting this thread after 2 years.
Abundance of insight and knowledge
into naner culture.

TY!

venturabananas · 07-18-2015, 11:01 AM

There were lots of things discussed in this thread. Which of those do you want an update on?

Going Bananas · 07-18-2015, 02:15 PM

I quick read the first time
and found it very mentally stimulating.
Im going to reread and digest it.
For someone new to naner culture,
I thought it was very informative.

Thank You!

Olafhenny · 07-18-2015, 10:26 PM

Hi Mark,

given your reply in which you quoted me as writing…:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

In the tropics daylight hours are roughly constant 12hrs on - 12hrs off. That state is not even reached until
~Sept 21st.]

So the June to August comparison is of doubtful importance

Your reply:

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

Given that I don't live in the tropics (34 degrees north), it is a fact that there are more daylight hours in June than August, yet my bananas consistently grow faster in August than June. The average temperature is warmer in Aug than June. Thus, I conclude that in this situation, temperature differences, not daylight differences are driving growth rate. The response of banana growth rate to temperature is well documented in the literature. That is not to say that day length, or more generally, light exposure is not important, too.

…I do not think, that you even have read, what you quoted. So I will express it in a different way: In the tropics, which the bananas call home, the day/night cycle is very close to 12/12. In August you are much closer to that cycle and your bananas feel more like home and closer to conditions, which are anchored deeply in their genetic make-up.
Consequently they feel more comfortable, as far as natural light is concerned, in August through October than they do in June or December. If you could charm up some weather in the ^F 80s and 90s in natural light conditions, you would find similar growth spurts in February thru April.
Best,
Olaf

Richard · 07-18-2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

... In the tropics, which the bananas call home, the day/night cycle is very close to 12/12. In August you are much closer to that cycle ...

Actually in southern California we have that exposure twice per year during the spring and fall equinox -- near the 3rd weeks of March and September. A huge factor for us that we don't have the sustained humidity of tropical banana ecosystems.

Olafhenny · 07-18-2015, 11:58 PM

Richard,

how are your temperatures during February - March? If you live in an arid climate,
that would suggest to me, that the nights would be rather cool then.

Olaf

Richard · 07-19-2015, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

Richard, how are your temperatures during February - March? If you live in an arid climate, that would suggest to me, that the nights would be rather cool then.

Not sure why you are mentioning February - March?
The southern CA vernal equinox is in the 3rd week of March, and the autumnal equinox is in the 3rd week of September. At our location the daylight hours are briefly at 12 hours per day. You can explore it further for many latitudes here:

Quote:

Daylight Hours Explorer

Southern CA is approximately 33.5 deg, and of course the tropics are between -20 deg and +20 deg.

Regarding temperatures during the week of the equinox: Here in the coastal influenced portion of northern San Diego County, some years I have experienced 80 deg daytime weather and others 50 deg at the spring equinox, and likewise 60 deg weather or 90 deg weather at the fall equinox.

Olafhenny · 07-19-2015, 03:36 PM

I was focusing on the the two colder months of the 3 around spring equinox, when
the light is right, but the temperatures may a bit chilly, thus affecting the growth.

Richard · 07-19-2015, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olafhenny

I was focusing on the the two colder months of the 3 around spring equinox, when the light is right, but the temperatures may a bit chilly, thus affecting the growth.

Ok, but as you see from the daylight hours chart, the daylight period here in February is only 10.3 to 11.3 hours, whereas in the Asian banana belt its an hour longer. As for temperatures here -- that's a crap shoot. It was warmer here this February than in many parts of Burma.

venturabananas · 07-26-2015, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Going Bananas

I quick read the first time
and found it very mentally stimulating.
Im going to reread and digest it.
For someone new to naner culture,
I thought it was very informative.

Thank You!

I guess the only thing I would add, having watched this particular mat for almost 6 years now, is if you don't "feed" the mat (fertilize, add compost, organic material, whatever) the production will drop off. I'm sure that is obvious; but amazingly, this mat continues to produce fruit, though fewer now than in previous years, without ever being fed (from what my neighbor tells me).

I think my ideal would be 3-4 p-stems per mat, each at different stages, to ensure a regular supply of bananas, without the mat getting out of control. I seem to have a hard time staying on top of the pup removal, so most of my mats have more p-stems than that.

11-28-2012, 09:20 PM	#61 (permalink)
PR-Giants Commercial Grower Location: Florida & Greater Antilles Find me on the map! Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 4,775 BananaBucks : 4,707 Feedback: 16 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,989 Times Was Thanked 13,047 Times in 3,847 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3,231 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups Although I have no experience or desire to grow bananas in a colder climate, I'm still curious if the process can be improved or even if the growing period could be expanded. During the cooler months what is the first trigger for a plant to slow growth, plant temperature above the ground or below? I've read many times how people here add a heating pad under a pot to promote root growth. This leads me to believe that a container of wet partially composted organic matter can easily be dried and have air introduced to increase the temperature of the roots through an aerobic process. __________________ PR-Giants Photo Gallery 15,000+ Varieties

11-28-2012, 11:39 PM	#63 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 297,528 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups My experience is limited to Basjoo and Ornata. Going into my third winter now with the Basjoo I have observed the following: They keep on growing until frost damages the leaves, although at a slower pace. That may be due to cooler temperatures, but I tend more toward believing that is has a lot more to do with daylight hours. I have here: Need advice to grow a banana plant indoors all winter in some detail reported in a sequence of postings of how my Ornatas fared a year ago in waning light conditions, but at constant temperatures. That brings me to another observation, though anecdotal as it may be with my limited experience: Deep rich humus does not appear to help bananas to grow better and bananas in pots or poor soil appear to grow more pups. I have so far had only soft indications on the latter and had actually wanted to wait before I voice that observation, which may be skewed by the fact, that the Ornatas did very poorly outside, while overwhelmed by my 9 feet high Cannas Australia and the Rhicinus Communis Purple New Zealand in my ‘tropical planter’ (http://www.bananas.org/f8/my-brand-n...er-15715.html).* And because they were overwhelmed I did not notice, that anything was wrong with them until I transplanted them back into pots inside. While the Pseudo stems either folded or are in rough shape, they seem to be pupping quite well. *If you open that, You see on top a picture, which was taken long before the fall ‘wrap up’. You can see one of the Ornatas just above the petunias, still in reasonable shape and in the background the larger leaf of a Basjoo. The New Zealand Castor Bean has after that still grown substantially, thus drowning out the Ornatas. There is also a picture of that available) __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

07-17-2015, 02:17 AM	#71 (permalink)
Going Bananas GoinBananas Location: Frwy 210&57 SoCal Zone: 10 Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 290 BananaBucks : 20,818 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 227 Times Was Thanked 264 Times in 155 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 4 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups BUMP.... Resurrecting this thread after 2 years. Abundance of insight and knowledge into naner culture. TY!

07-18-2015, 11:01 AM	#72 (permalink)
venturabananas venturabananas's Photo Gallery Location: Ventura, CA Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Mark Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,845 BananaBucks : 286,635 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,752 Times Was Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,713 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 39 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups There were lots of things discussed in this thread. Which of those do you want an update on? __________________

07-18-2015, 02:15 PM	#73 (permalink)
Going Bananas GoinBananas Location: Frwy 210&57 SoCal Zone: 10 Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 290 BananaBucks : 20,818 Feedback: 1 / 100% Said "Thanks" 227 Times Was Thanked 264 Times in 155 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 4 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups I quick read the first time and found it very mentally stimulating. Im going to reread and digest it. For someone new to naner culture, I thought it was very informative. Thank You! Last edited by Going Bananas : 07-18-2015 at 02:18 PM.

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07-18-2015, 11:58 PM	#76 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 297,528 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups Richard, how are your temperatures during February - March? If you live in an arid climate, that would suggest to me, that the nights would be rather cool then. Olaf __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

07-19-2015, 03:36 PM	#78 (permalink)
Olafhenny Olafhenny's Photo Gallery Location: Penticton, BC, Okanagan Valley, Canada Find me on the map! Zone: Hardiness Zone 6 Name: Olaf Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,705 BananaBucks : 297,528 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 2,050 Times Was Thanked 2,012 Times in 876 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 77 Times	Re: Here's what happens if you don't remove pups I was focusing on the the two colder months of the 3 around spring equinox, when the light is right, but the temperatures may a bit chilly, thus affecting the growth. __________________ The reason I joined this forum was to share experiences, my own and those of others and to learn from them.

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