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Old 04-29-2011, 05:31 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Joy Grafting Mature Banana Pups

I have been grafting mature banana pups of different species for several years and I have now, finally created a Basjoo mutant very cold resistant. Please check my photos, and you will see that my mutant differs from the ordinary Basjoo. It started blooming in the autumn last year, stopped, and became dormant during the winter and started blooming again in the early spring. If you look at the fruit of my mutant you will notice that it is different from the ordinary Basjoo Blossom. I have posted pictures in the photo gallery.

Last edited by Mauro Gibo : 04-29-2011 at 05:33 AM. Reason: Happy for being successful after so many years.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

Way to go, Mauro! Your Basjoo now looks more like Fe'i ! ! ! Let us know what the fruit taste like when they ripen. I've seen your videos in Youtube and I'm very impressed.

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Old 04-29-2011, 05:28 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

I also have seen your youtube videos and I dont quite understand what it is you are actually achieving by doing this. From what I know, simply by joining 2 different corms together wouldnt do anything except grow 2 different bananas together. The same as just planting them separately,but close together.....True, if the 2 corms grow together they would both be benefiting from the intake of water and nutrients from the combined roots, but this wont produce anything different as far as flowering or fruiting, or "mutating". How does this act of grafting combine or mix any of the differences between the 2 plants into something new, or create any type of a mutation? Mutations can occur randomly in nature or by natural or man made radiation, resulting in a differently shaped leaf or perhaps variegation, etc. But you cannot "create' a mutation simply by the act of grafting. This would not be considered a mutation anyway, it would be called a hybrid which is completely different. And usually when you hybridize plants, it is done by cross pollination and not by grafting. When you graft one plant onto another, it is usually a weaker growing plant tip being grafted onto a stronger root stock in order for the weaker one to grow more easily, or for obtaining fruit quicker when taking a limb from an already mature tree and grafting it to a very young rootstock. The other reason I have seen for grafting is to produce a single tree which would have various types and colors of flowers (such as Hibiscus), in a single tree, or with fruit trees, in order to end up with a single tree that will produce different fruit on the same tree--but, these are separate branches which hold true to their specific flowers and fruit. Bananas do not have branches and only a single meristem so this is not possible to achieve the same result. By simply 'joining' , (or "grafting") 2 different banana plants together it is not possible for their separate differences or qualitys to somehow magically 'Mix' and produce anything different. Each corm or tree would just produce suckers of its own type and flower and fruit each to its own. As for the 'mutant' flower in your gallery photos of this Basjoo, it looks to me like the flowering stem just got 'stuck' growing out during the winter and was never able to continue to grow out naturally and become pendant like normal, and this is the reason it is erect like a Fehi banana. I believe this is true because the fruit is also immature and had started to ripen just from age as it was not able to continue filling out due to the winter conditions. None of this was caused by grafting or "mutating", just natural occurrence from the winter conditions. I just dont understand what it is you are doing, if you would be so kind as to explain this I would be very interested in understanding. Thanks!

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Old 04-29-2011, 10:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Bananas Brindando Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

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Originally Posted by varig8 View Post
I also have seen your youtube videos and I dont quite understand what it is you are actually achieving by doing this. From what I know, simply by joining 2 different corms together wouldnt do anything except grow 2 different bananas together. The same as just planting them separately,but close together.....True, if the 2 corms grow together they would both be benefiting from the intake of water and nutrients from the combined roots, but this wont produce anything different as far as flowering or fruiting, or "mutating". How does this act of grafting combine or mix any of the differences between the 2 plants into something new, or create any type of a mutation? Mutations can occur randomly in nature or by natural or man made radiation, resulting in a differently shaped leaf or perhaps variegation, etc. But you cannot "create' a mutation simply by the act of grafting. This would not be considered a mutation anyway, it would be called a hybrid which is completely different. And usually when you hybridize plants, it is done by cross pollination and not by grafting. When you graft one plant onto another, it is usually a weaker growing plant tip being grafted onto a stronger root stock in order for the weaker one to grow more easily, or for obtaining fruit quicker when taking a limb from an already mature tree and grafting it to a very young rootstock. The other reason I have seen for grafting is to produce a single tree which would have various types and colors of flowers (such as Hibiscus), in a single tree, or with fruit trees, in order to end up with a single tree that will produce different fruit on the same tree--but, these are separate branches which hold true to their specific flowers and fruit. Bananas do not have branches and only a single meristem so this is not possible to achieve the same result. By simply 'joining' , (or "grafting") 2 different banana plants together it is not possible for their separate differences or qualitys to somehow magically 'Mix' and produce anything different. Each corm or tree would just produce suckers of its own type and flower and fruit each to its own. As for the 'mutant' flower in your gallery photos of this Basjoo, it looks to me like the flowering stem just got 'stuck' growing out during the winter and was never able to continue to grow out naturally and become pendant like normal, and this is the reason it is erect like a Fehi banana. I believe this is true because the fruit is also immature and had started to ripen just from age as it was not able to continue filling out due to the winter conditions. None of this was caused by grafting or "mutating", just natural occurrence from the winter conditions. I just dont understand what it is you are doing, if you would be so kind as to explain this I would be very interested in understanding. Thanks!
Thank you for your comment Viacao Aerea Riograndense. By grafting the 2 species of Musas I expect them to in some way exchange gametes, that is, complete sexual cells and change their characteristics. My new mutant already has changed, if you check the flowers you will notice that they are different from the ordinary M. Basjoo. My mutant doen't produce pollen, so it is sterile, just like the Raja Puri which is the other variety I grafted with the M. Basjoo.

Last edited by Mauro Gibo : 04-29-2011 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Show difference in the Basjoo Flower
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

(I dont know what Viacao Aerea Riograndense means?)

Anyway, The only sex cells or gametes will be in the ovaries, which become the banana fruit after the pollen from the stamens in the flowers is transferred to the pistils and fertilization occurs. It has nothing to do with grafting and grafting will never produce any type of mutation or hybrid mix between 2 plants. It just doesnt work that way. If you will do some simple research into this you will see that it just cant happen. "I expect them to in some way exchange gametes, that is, complete sexual cells and change their characteristics." How would this happen? Thats a pretty big leap of thought there. These sexual cells or gametes arent just floating all around inside the banana plant magically mixing themselves up to produce a different plant. Thats like saying if you take a piece of a person and mix it up with a piece of another person, that you should expect that it should somehow produce a hybrid or a mutation. Im sorry, but this will never occur through grafting. The photos of the flowers above just look like older ones in the first photo and new ones in the second, or perhaps Raja Puri flowers in the first photo and Basjoo flowers in the second.

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Old 04-30-2011, 03:53 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

Quote:
Originally Posted by varig8 View Post
I also have seen your youtube videos and I dont quite understand what it is you are actually achieving by doing this. From what I know, simply by joining 2 different corms together wouldnt do anything except grow 2 different bananas together. The same as just planting them separately,but close together.....True, if the 2 corms grow together they would both be benefiting from the intake of water and nutrients from the combined roots, but this wont produce anything different as far as flowering or fruiting, or "mutating". How does this act of grafting combine or mix any of the differences between the 2 plants into something new, or create any type of a mutation? Mutations can occur randomly in nature or by natural or man made radiation, resulting in a differently shaped leaf or perhaps variegation, etc. But you cannot "create' a mutation simply by the act of grafting. This would not be considered a mutation anyway, it would be called a hybrid which is completely different. And usually when you hybridize plants, it is done by cross pollination and not by grafting. When you graft one plant onto another, it is usually a weaker growing plant tip being grafted onto a stronger root stock in order for the weaker one to grow more easily, or for obtaining fruit quicker when taking a limb from an already mature tree and grafting it to a very young rootstock.
Here's the way I see it: The 2 halves of the p-stem are fused to form 1 p-stem. As the p-stem grows, understandably, the 2 halves are on each side of the p-stem, then forms a flower bud, followed by the fruit. Now, I'm not there to inspect it. But would you surmise that half the fruits on one side of the fruit stem would be a Basjoo fruit and the other half the Rajapuri, such that if the split happens to be in the the middle of a hand of ten fingers, there would be 5 Basjoo and 5 Rajapuri? Personally, I would think not. I would think that the characteristics of the 2 varieties would be present in each fruit (finger). Perhaps Mauro can show us what the fruits look like (cut in half).

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The other reason I have seen for grafting is to produce a single tree which would have various types and colors of flowers (such as Hibiscus), in a single tree, or with fruit trees, in order to end up with a single tree that will produce different fruit on the same tree--but, these are separate branches which hold true to their specific flowers and fruit. Bananas do not have branches and only a single meristem so this is not possible to achieve the same result. By simply 'joining' , (or "grafting") 2 different banana plants together it is not possible for their separate differences or qualitys to somehow magically 'Mix' and produce anything different. Each corm or tree would just produce suckers of its own type and flower and fruit each to its own.
If the resulting fruits are a combination of the 2 varieties, then I would think that some of the pups emanating from the area of the joint would also have a mixture of the 2 varieties. Perhaps, the pups further from the joint would favor the characteristics of the pertinent side. Again, since Mauro has done this for a couple of years now, he can show us some of the offsprings from his "grafted" plants.

Quote:
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As for the 'mutant' flower in your gallery photos of this Basjoo, it looks to me like the flowering stem just got 'stuck' growing out during the winter and was never able to continue to grow out naturally and become pendant like normal, and this is the reason it is erect like a Fehi banana. I believe this is true because the fruit is also immature and had started to ripen just from age as it was not able to continue filling out due to the winter conditions. None of this was caused by grafting or "mutating", just natural occurrence from the winter conditions.
For this particular plant I concur that the timing of the emergence of the bloom and fruit may have affected the way it bloomed. But did the weather affect the shape of the fruits, which neither look like Basjoo nor Rajapuri. Well, maybe. In which case, which half would have seeds and which half would not? Or are they completely seedless?

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I just dont understand what it is you are doing, if you would be so kind as to explain this I would be very interested in understanding. Thanks!
I believe he is just doing what the people in the islands have been doing for generations - "grafting" bananas to produce a different variety. I do not believe that they are just doing it for the fun of it.
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

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Here's the way I see it: The 2 halves of the p-stem are fused to form 1 p-stem. As the p-stem grows, understandably, the 2 halves are on each side of the p-stem, then forms a flower bud, followed by the fruit. Now, I'm not there to inspect it. But would you surmise that half the fruits on one side of the fruit stem would be a Basjoo fruit and the other half the Rajapuri, such that if the split happens to be in the the middle of a hand of ten fingers, there would be 5 Basjoo and 5 Rajapuri? Personally, I would think not. I would think that the characteristics of the 2 varieties would be present in each fruit (finger). Perhaps Mauro can show us what the fruits look like (cut in half).

If the resulting fruits are a combination of the 2 varieties, then I would think that some of the pups emanating from the area of the joint would also have a mixture of the 2 varieties. Perhaps, the pups further from the joint would favor the characteristics of the pertinent side. Again, since Mauro has done this for a couple of years now, he can show us some of the offsprings from his "grafted" plants.


For this particular plant I concur that the timing of the emergence of the bloom and fruit may have affected the way it bloomed. But did the weather affect the shape of the fruits, which neither look like Basjoo nor Rajapuri. Well, maybe. In which case, which half would have seeds and which half would not? Or are they completely seedless?

I believe he is just doing what the people in the islands have been doing for generations - "grafting" bananas to produce a different variety. I do not believe that they are just doing it for the fun of it.
#1. If it were possible by this simple grafting method to successfully join 2 of the MERISTEMS together, the chances of it producing half and half fruit, or any amount of mixed types is minuscule. It would more than likely produce fruit all the same but being a mixture from both parent varieties. This is because the cells inside the apical meristem which produces new growth revolve around on top of each other in different layers as it grows out. But even this being a possibility of happening is hypothetical. This would have to be accomplished at a cellular level under a microscope to insure that the apical meristem was indeed "joined" or "mixed". You're talking about manipulating a few thousand specific types of cells under a microscope to achieve this, and I seriously doubt if even this method would be useful in achieving a new hybrid IF it would even be possible to do.
Besides that, it appears in the videos that this is not what is going on. I see 2 trees joined closely at the base and top portion of the corms. So you have 2 trees, different varieties, each producing flowers and fruit of its own.

#2. The possibility that a grafted corm would produce a sucker in the middle of the original graft cut consisting of a mix of BOTH varieties is not possible. Each tree would produce suckers of its own variety from each half of that corm. Just because the 2 halves are supposedly joined does not mean that the closer to the graft that the sucker is produced somehow they "mix" together in that region of the corm. The 2 never mix.

#3. Yes the weather affected the shape of the fruits because it was cold and the tree was dormant and they were never able to fully develop. You can see in the photo that they are immature fruit. They are dying like the rest of that tree. They were stalled during dormancy, the raceme remained erect and stopped growing, (or it is struggling to continue growing very slowly using up its stored energy reserves), also the immature fruit has started to ripen as they are dying. The tree has no living leaves, (you can see them brown and pulled down away from the raceme). IF this tree doesnt die, which I believe it is in the process of doing, all the fruit would be the same, they are not 'mixed". They are the fruit from whichever tree flowered, either the raji puri or the basjoo.

#4 If "they" have been doing it for generations and producing different varieties, show me some evidence of a named variety or cultivar that was borne from this grafting technique. Where are these grafted varieties and what are they named? Why hasnt anyone ever heard of these varieties before? I dont think "they" are doing it for the fun of it either; and if they have been doing it, I dont believe it has produced anything but fruit from each of the parent sides tree. Please understand that I mean no disrespect to yours or anyone else's ideas. But its science. I do not believe that it is possible to produce a new variety of any plant from this 'conjoined twin" grafting.
If this were a possibility people would be doing this with all types of plant material all over the world to produce new plants and it just doesnt happen. Unfortunately I believe its really just wishful thinking and unsubstantiated claims. I think that this particular idea is a dead end road leading no where but to very disheartening disappointment.

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Old 04-30-2011, 06:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Joy Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

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(I dont know what Viacao Aerea Riograndense means?)

Anyway, The only sex cells or gametes will be in the ovaries, which become the banana fruit after the pollen from the stamens in the flowers is transferred to the pistils and fertilization occurs. It has nothing to do with grafting and grafting will never produce any type of mutation or hybrid mix between 2 plants. It just doesnt work that way. If you will do some simple research into this you will see that it just cant happen. "I expect them to in some way exchange gametes, that is, complete sexual cells and change their characteristics." How? These sexual cells or gametes arent just floating all around inside the banana plant magically mixing themselves up to produce a different plant. Thats like saying if you take a piece of a person and mix it up with a piece of another person, that you should expect that it should somehow produce a hybrid or a mutation. Im sorry, but this will never occur through grafting. The photos of the flowers above just look like older ones in the first photo and new ones in the second.
I am sorry, I thought you knew that Varig was the largest Air Line of Brazil in the past.All the times I went to Brazil I traveled by Varig. I just thought you had worked for the same company. Please forgive me, I meant no disrespect.
Alright, about my experiment: All the varieties of bananas I have grafted with the M. Basjoo did never survive the cold winter, that's a fact. They will grow together in the summer but unfortunately they die due to the frost in the winter. Before the weaker species dies, when it is still vigorous I apply a kind of cell transporter to the cold weak variety. I thank you all for discussing with sincerety your points of view about this subject. I may be following just a folktale but we all know that nature works in a mysterious way. The octopus eats its own leg when it is hungry and it grows back again. As the result will justify the means, I will wait until I get more concrete proof and produce an edible banana in my garden. Till then, stay well my friends.
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:12 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I am sorry, I thought you knew that Varig was the largest Air Line of Brazil in the past.All the times I went to Brazil I traveled by Varig. I just thought you had worked for the same company. Please forgive me, I meant no disrespect.
Alright, about my experiment: All the varieties of bananas I have grafted with the M. Basjoo did never survive the cold winter, that's a fact. They will grow together in the summer but unfortunately they die due to the frost in the winter. Before the weaker species dies, when it is still vigorous I apply a kind of cell transporter to the cold weak variety. I thank you all for discussing with sincerety your points of view about this subject. I may be following just a folktale but we all know that nature works in a mysterious way. The octopus eats its own leg when it is hungry and it grows back again. As the result will justify the means, I will wait until I get more concrete proof and produce an edible banana in my garden. Till then, stay well my friends.
Please, Dear Sir, no apologies are necessary. I did not know about Varig.
My user name is Varig 8........(varig-ate---I collect variegated plants).
Sadly nature is only mysterious until we understand the 'mystery' and then it is no more. I wish you well and only enjoyment in your pursuits however "fruitful" they may or may not be.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:17 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Consider that What we think we know, is wrong. All of our current science is based on observation. I observer something, so that must be how it works. New data is always proving old data wrong or incorrect or just incomplete because new data has been brought forth. Yes we can use a microscope to see how cell works, and we can even make crazy genetically modified plants and animals. GMO products change all the rules that we currently know and we are observing the new data and providing different answers. The world is always changing around us. There is a Cosmic magic that makes everything work that is beyond our understanding at this point.

Personally I do not think grafting Bananas plants will do anything at all other then as stated grow two different plants. But from what I know and understand if there were grafted at the corm and there is only 1 p-Stem. I would think that each mother would shoot out its own leafs and flowers giving you a double bloom. Or even worse if they are both shooting flowers out the same p-stem the leafs might be clogged up and chock it self out. I am NO expert by any means. However I do encourage you to play with plants in uncommon ways and see what kind of results you get. New knowledge comes from going against what is consider normal to make new discovery's or provide new information. At this time I do believe this project will need to provide more proof before I attempt to graft a banana.

Maybe a little unrelated, but my Grandfather tells me 60 years ago a fruit cocktail tree was unheard of.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

There is such a thing as a "Graft Hybrid". I don't see how it would work with Musa since the graft is not one on top of the other, but there is a common chimera of Laburnum and Cystus that is really cool. I've thought about this Musa graft idea and the one thing I think might work is if one of the parents has what appears to be a mutation that is actually caused by a virus (as I have heard many types of variegation are) then I could see this virus being spread from one Musa to another via this method.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

And I'll put my 2-cents worth in as well. There is no way for genetic material to be exchanged between plants other than thru sexual reproduction or gene manipulation as in splicing. This cannot be done by grafting since no cells in the stem, pseudo or otherwise, are able to merge as in sperm and egg. During fertilization 1/2 of each parents genetic makeup is combined to form an egg, in plants this is the seed. Since stem cells within a banana corm, pseudostem or what ever, are made of full genetic material, they cannot combine to form a new type of banana. There is no transference in any way shape or form of genetic material to do this. So unfortunately grafting one banana to another will not produce a hybrid. Only through sexual reporduction can a viable hybrid be produced, whether in a lab or through manipulation. Variations in bananas growth or even a slight variation in variety can seem to produce something slightly different.

So there's my 2-cents worth BIOLOGY 101-Botony classes in college
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

Seems to me that I heard once, long ago, of someone cutting red and white tulip bulbs in half, and putting the different colors together. The flowers came out with half the petals red, and half white, no pinks.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:26 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

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Originally Posted by john_ny View Post
Seems to me that I heard once, long ago, of someone cutting red and white tulip bulbs in half, and putting the different colors together. The flowers came out with half the petals red, and half white, no pinks.
If it was that easy. It takes years of pollination and selection to create a new Tulip cultivar, same as with roses i guess. In your case, if it worked,
they could have used pieces of 4 or even 8 bulbs and voila a nice new
cultivar.

Ron...
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Old 05-09-2011, 10:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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When I first read of Mauro's efforts I thought he was crazy. I still think he may be a little crazy but he is having fun and is taking a positive outlook on this, recognizing it's based on folklore, etc. However, I did do some searching a couple of years ago after mentioning it to a friend (a university professor working mostly with heliconia) who was even more convinced than I that there was no merit in the musa grafting. My searching did turn up some paper about the transfer of genes that may take place with some grafts. It wasn't entirely clear to me what it all meant at the time and even less so now after time has passed since reading the research paper. I think it's interesting to read of Mauro's continued efforts and wish him success and even hopes that he might prove us skeptics as being the crazy ones. Good luck and best wishes!
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:02 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Bananas Brindando Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

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Originally Posted by harveyc View Post
When I first read of Mauro's efforts I thought he was crazy. I still think he may be a little crazy but he is having fun and is taking a positive outlook on this, recognizing it's based on folklore, etc. However, I did do some searching a couple of years ago after mentioning it to a friend (a university professor working mostly with heliconia) who was even more convinced than I that there was no merit in the musa grafting. My searching did turn up some paper about the transfer of genes that may take place with some grafts. It wasn't entirely clear to me what it all meant at the time and even less so now after time has passed since reading the research paper. I think it's interesting to read of Mauro's continued efforts and wish him success and even hopes that he might prove us skeptics as being the crazy ones. Good luck and best wishes!
Thank you for your comforting words harveyc. It helps a lot when you feel all alone in this big world. What I am doing is a quest. I am trying to reach the unreachable star. One thing I can tell you: My musa plants collection is increasing a lot, because of this unthinkable procedure I plant 2 plants instead of one. I am lucky to have a large farm where I can plant all sorts of plants and hope that some day, in some way, I will harvest bananas in my farm without worrying about frost. In this long journey in the world of plants I found out that the seeds that the M. Basjoo grown in Japan produce are viable. I have many seedlings growing already. Once again, I thank you all for taking your precious time to read my thread which may be just a nonsense.
Bye,
Best Wishes,
Mauro Gibo

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Old 05-10-2011, 04:04 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

Whatever comes of it the facts remain. I have an open mind about this, endogenous plant viruses or growth factors from either plant being physically fused together could play roles too.
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Old 05-10-2011, 09:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

Here's one applicable research paper. I only did a quick search so there may be others with different findings, but it documents that that there has clearly been the assertion by some that hybrids can be formed via grafts: Heredity - New insights into plant graft hybridization
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Grafting Mature Banana Pups

The big problem with the theory isn't whether or not grafted plants can be affected by each other, that is more or less well documented and has different sound biologic reasoning behind it. The big problem is whether or not two bananas can be grafted together in the first place, regardless of what could theoretically happen if they were to form a union.

Look up information on grafting monocots (bananas are monocots), and you will see where the problems start to happen. All of those papers are on dicots which easily form graft unions.

Before drawing any conclusions as to what could happen to the plants if two bananas were grafted together, there must be a case of two bananas actually being grafted together, forming a solid, sturdy union.

There has been no evidence provided that any graft unions have actually taken place...as in, evidence that two corms have grown together and formed a solid union.
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