Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Having read so many posts both recent, and old from PR-Giants, about success with sand, AND seeing a post about using a window screen to sift the fines...

Here is today's experiment. I took some sand from some course plaster sand I have on hand, took it into a stream, and went to work sifting, cleaning and filtering all the fines out. I was left with what I would actually call "fine gravel", but it sure looks like the sand I have seen in PR-Giants post?

I have also tried to work with the sand actually IN the stream - that works great for spawning trout, but it appears to be larger than I would want, more like small gravel. This would need to be sifted the opposite way - sifting out the small rocks, and I can't find the right gauge (tried various sizes of hardware cloth, wire and screen)

The next step, is get some corms planted into the stuff, and see what happens? I have some Dwarf Cavendish corms that are a no risk experiment, as they were headed to the compost pile anyway. I will be watching the moisture levels, and activity from the corms very carefully.........

Here's a couple of pics. First is, rinsing and filtering it in the stream - the little pile on the upper right is what I started with.
The second pic is what I am left with when filtering through window screen to remove the fines.

Anyone have any thoughts? Had I not read all the posts here, I would have initially thought this stuff was TOO coarse......
[IMG][/IMG]

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

I just last year started using a coarse product too (Turface MVP) so can not be much help with comparing it to your river sand but my stuff looks about the same size of your sand but more consistent in size and has a porous surface. So far it has worked well for me. One warning if you use larger pots they are going to be heavy. I knew it would be heavier than my usual potting mix but was still surprised at how heavy. You will definitely have to water more frequently. That said if you are as dedicated as myself and want to grow those sensitive bananas you will figure it out. I use an appliance dolly to move plants.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_...orth_scale.png

Clean Coarse Sand allows me to build free underground humidity chambers that are simple to maintain. There's plenty of air and just needs moisture.

Some people prefer buying Horticultural Sand or some other high priced equivalent.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

So in a way, its basically a semi-aeroponic system.

That's crazy cool. I've seen your posts on this before, but how did you come up with this method?

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

I spent a lot of time the past few days, standing out in my stream, washing wheelbarrow loads of sand, to get a lot of the fines out. I now will be watching some corms I planted the next few weeks to gauge these initial results.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Yea, you got the fever bad. Me too. LOL.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Here's three Florida Variegated corm/nub experiments, in sand well washed to get the majority of fines out, a pretty coarse mix. They are being kept in a warm, humid environment, bright, but filtered light. If I end up with rot, I can make my sand coarser with more washing/sifting - but trying this out. I have studied this sand carefully with a magnifying glass.

If I had to guess - in 3 weeks they will be growing. Stay tuned, same musa time, same musa channel. ;)
[IMG][/IMG]

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Any update?

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

+1 for the Update

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Nothing yet today, at 8 days. Of course, I never expected really quick results, as these were all "stressed, not perfect corms".....I'm hoping to "see some action" within a couple of more weeks though........ ;)

I spent an hour standing in a Rocky mountain stream yesterday, sifting, and washing more sand, for these trials I am doing, I have several different grades/trials going now.
[IMG][/IMG]

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

In the stream I am using metal lathe, which is similar to 1/4 inch hardware cloth for initial getting big stuff/rocks out, then window screen size to get fines out. And a lot of washing and rinses and carrying heavy buckets of wet sand along the way. Hard work! I'm still trying to fine tune my "system" to get a larger amount quicker!!

I'm going to have around 20 or so variegated bananas that I will be needing to put in large containers (25 gallon) late in the summer. My big question is what to medium to use as my permanent mix.

I have several "test mixes" in pots now I'm watering a lot and just watching and testing moisture levels, these include all the sand I must mentioned, and some mixes of said sand with perlite, some with a little Ocean Forest potting medium mixed in. ALL my other types of musa, are doing great in Ocean Forest. I have experimented cutting the already light and fluffy Ocean Forest with up to 50% more perlite in the past, but with "normal" musa, doesn't seem to matter, they all do fine regardless of the overwatering!

With my winter losses of both a good sized A'ea'e, and a Florida, I have been carefully studying my gardening calendar from this past year, as I always write down when I water. It's quite easy to see in retrospect how I killed both, and while all my other musa types are doing fine, these two bit the bullet with all the excess moisture, and not enough drainage previously talked in my other thread.

I am going to be visiting several different quarries, sand/gravel dealers in the next few weeks, one about a 2 hour drive from me, has dozens of different grades types. I'm trying to find someone that has small enough lava rock that I can incorporate into my permanent mix for these "easy to kill" variegated types. Yes, I can make the stuff my self, but for the amount I need, it sure would be nice to get a truckload full!!!

Now, of course, the simple way with my next round of variegated bananas, might be to do just three simple things, a bit more perlite into the mix, tons more drainage holes, and most important.....LESS WATERING DURING WINTER!!!!!!!!!!!

An interesting note, I have spent several years, and searched maybe 15 years worth of posts on this forum for any and all Manini/A'ea'e info, I have yet to find a post with anyone with a big one growing in a pot, in a greenhouse. I'm sure they are out there, but it seems most successful growers have them outside, a lot in sandy soil.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

[IMG][/IMG]

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

The river stuff is the most coarse, but appears to be the closest to PR-Giants sand? That stuff went through my 1/4 inch mesh. I have put some coins in pics, as a lot of times when looking at pictures of sand, or other substrates online, you have nothing to compare it to, size wise!

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Would a small flume with different mesh screens in the bottom, smallest mesh 1st, work in your situation?

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

I have been looking into many different type of sifters, the best ones are gold mining types. Many small cheap gardening type sifters would be history after a few loads of my heavy wet river rocky/sandy soil.

I have had to "un-think" this process, and suddenly came to me, the answer was lying buried in weeds on my property. It's a large contraption I build to sift the clay Southwest soil - to make Adobe plaster! Now, normally you throw the initial stuff into this sifter, to collect the fines. But, I am going to patch the thing up, and use it the other way around, shovel stuff against it, and collect the "good coarse stuff" at the bottom!!!! This is AFTER my initial using a 1/4 inch screen to get the big rocks out.

But here's a huge thing, a lightbulb just went off in my head this afternoon, as I was prepping some whiskey barrels........and it possibly is a HUGE thing!!!! I have never seen this subject mentioned anywhere online in any sort of gardening forums........

There is a nearly SIX INCH difference in a whiskey barrel half - top to bottom!!!! So whatever moisture you put on top, comes together at the bottom to create way more than you intended from the top!!! You are basically funneling and collecting much more water than you think you are as you water from the top!

This is a really simple thing, and as I live off rain catchment water from my roof - (and all my musa is watered with this) I'm experienced in the ways you can catch water, and yet this slipped by me.

This difference in size, top to bottom probably wouldn't affect most plants, but for the most water sensitive (ie: Manini A'ea'e), I think it could have made a really big difference as I went into my colder months. Proof of the pudding, is my first winter, my A'ea'e did GREAT, in a straight pot, no problemo, and I wasn't even really that water stingy with it, I watered it along with all my other musa...... but it died in the whiskey barrel......

So bottom line, those nice pretty whiskey barrels are going to be used for other stuff, and I'm going to be a completely straight sided pot man from now on for water sensitive musa!!!!

While this possibly isn't the "straw that broke the camels back" (er, I mean killed my A'ea'e), it sure as heck didn't help!!!

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

How much drainage did you have in those whiskey barrels? A lot of people (including myself in past years) drill 3 or 4 holes and consider that enough. Drainage holes are not only for drainage of water but for drainage and inflow of air too. If the wooden rim of a whiskey barrel rests on dirt or a flat floor it traps stagnant air underneath and in the soil. Same can happen with a flat bottom pot, with bottom only drainage if it sits on a flat surface. A potted plant, with good drainage but sitting in a little larger decorative pot with no drainage can trap stale air inside. Plant roots breath just like the leaves and that means they need fresh air too. Watering thoroughly (not just a spritz) pushes the stale air out and so sucks fresh air in. I do not mean to say do that in winter when there is little to no growth going on. No growth = little need for resources. In the last few years I have been not only drilling more holes in the bottom of homemade containers but have been putting holes on the side of the pots too. I have seen a big improvement in growth. Of course PR-Giants coarse sand medium takes care of most of the mentioned problems.
If you mean a "cylinder shape" by saying "straight sided pots" the problem I have with them is the friction when you try to pull a plant out of them. Much harder than a tapered sided pot, like the standard nursery pots.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

My drainage holes were a big part of the problem. I used a 1/4 drill bit, and drilled dozens of holes, but they were just too small, and with resting on the ground, clogged up. I was totally fooled though, as the top foot of the pot had soil that wasn't wet, but the bottom 6" or so, gathered all the water from the wider top, funneled it down the bottom, where it was saturated.

I totally agree with your advice, and have been drilling extra and bigger in all pots (all my musa is grown indoors in containers). And I'm using little pieces of flat flagstone on three bottom sides to keep it propped off the ground about an inch. So, I have four protocols I am changing with all my water sensitive musa
1) Most important, WATER MUCH LESS DURING WINTER
2) As discussed above, more and better airflow/drainage
3) Straight sided pot
4) Better drainage potting medium

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Sounds like you and I went through the same learning process. I guess we all are still learning.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

I would love to see pics of holes in sides of containers.

I just spent all day, 200 miles of driving to several gravel/sand/quarry places, big box stores, and nurseries. Didn't find a single source of nice sharp horticultural sand. Closest was some "crusher fines", at one place, but even that had maybe 20% material good, the rest too big or to small. I was tempted to ask "where is the aisle with PR-Giants brand custom manini brand coarse sand, patent pending, 10% discount offered to bananas.org members"??? ;)

I need enough "whatever I end up using" to fill around a dozen 25 gallon pots. Spending a few hours this weekend in a stream, ending up with maybe 3 gallons of nice stuff, is the reason I'm looking another source.

Re: Experimenting with creating filtered coarse sand for corms
 

Well you and I definitely have the fever bad. Over a year ago I drove (If my memory serves me) 300 miles round trip to buy Turface MVP that looks to be a similar size to PR-Giants medium although I think it is coarser. 50# bag $18-$19 but it seems worth it. You might try to find "paver base sand" from a brick/block/tile supply. I think Home Depot sells it too as well as other building suppliers. You probably need to find out it's PH first just to make sure it's near neutral. While on a job last week I saw some and it looked perfect for a well draining sand but have not checked it out any further. It was finer than my Turface MVP but looked workable and is made for good drainage under things like driveway tiles.