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Old 07-21-2014, 01:17 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawler View Post
Well, I've looked at the Sweetheart... lovely large Pstems.... is taller than I'm looking for. I have space and lay in bed thinking about all these types I want to put in. BUT, the space I'm looking to fill that has border and bubble ready is smaller and I'm looking for a short yummy dessert banana to fill it.

Again, have a Raja Puri and Dw. Namwah...
So, a yummy short dessert banana... more cold tolerant would be a bonus
I am looking at Dw. Bazilian and saw these below on the Going Bananas site.
How would you rate the below 3 with regards to:
  • taste
  • time to fruit
  • time to ripen
  • cold tolerance

Thanks for any help!


DOUBLE (Double "Mahoi")- This beautiful Cavendish type has very wide, dark green leaves and produces a full sized fruit. Also called the Mahoi, the second generation produces multiple bunches of fruit, usually 2 but sometimes more. Height 5-6 ft.

GRAND NAIN - The commercial variety that you can buy in the grocery store. The purchased ones are good but when you grow it yourself and see how delicious this banana can taste you wonder what took you so long to try. These full sized fruit ripen rapidly, so be ready. They can give 40-60 pounds of fruit with ease. Height 6-8 ft.

VEINTE COHOL - A dessert variety originating in the Philippine area and having green pseudostem with some brown patches. The small plump fruit (3-4") are soft and sweet. Height about 8-10 ft. Current research shows it to be rapid to fruit, a real plus in the short summers. This is what you have been asking for, one that fruits fast before the warmth is gone for those short growing seasons!

And would a Dw. Brazilian beat them out on taste, height & cold tolerance?
I've yet to try a Veinte Cohol, but am growing it now. Double and Grand Nain taste similar, with Double or regular dwarf cavendish a bit better to my tastes. I've tasted a few dozen types at this point. DB, Gros Michel, and Mysore are my top 3 favorites. Raja Puri I don't care for (and I'm in the minority thinking it's not that similar to DB--something about the texture makes it unappealing). DB would beat those cavendish types in taste and cold tolerance, is similar to GN in height, and is taller than Double.

I think Mysore is more interesting tasting than DB, but mostly because DB is my default banana that I eat most days. I love DBs in Hawaii. Oddly, the ones I had all over Brazil were nowhere near as good. In my very limited experience selling at my farmers market, DBs sell very well and most people pass on cavendish types when I have them. Statewide though, most of our food, including bananas are imported. So that means cavendish types sell far more overall.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:19 PM   #42 (permalink)
 
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Question Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Okay, well I have been reading and reading.... and trying to decide between a DW. BRAZILIAN and, now, VEINTE COHOL..... I swear, there is info. on both ALL OVER THE BOARD as to taste and whether VEINTE COHOL is cold hardy or not.

It seems I have read more comments that VC taste better than DB. Okay, but DB still taste good, right?.... I mean, I DO like store bought Cavendish-- so there you go- THAT'S how discerning my taste buds are to give a frame of reference.

Regarding cold hardiness, the forum discussion has been inconsistent at best -all depends on writer. As far as I'm concerned with 'cold hardiness', I'm not talking having a potted beautiful plant to take outdoors when it starts to warm up in spring.
Any banana we have will be outside in the ground [zone 8b/9] and as long as it survives winter with minimal care (maybe a heat tape and some frost cloth), I don't care what it looks like just as long as it lives.

SO.... VEINTE COHOL ... what are y'all getting as a typical flowering height?
and just HOW cold surviving is it?
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:47 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

I don't think VC would do much but loose it's stem in low 30's.. Leaves turn yellow w/ low 40's.. But like the bananas it produces.. :v)
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:05 PM   #44 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

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I don't think VC would do much but loose it's stem in low 30's.. Leaves turn yellow w/ low 40's.. But like the bananas it produces.. :v)
So, when you say "lose it's stem in low 30's", do you mean it (the corm underground) would survive?
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:46 AM   #45 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

http://www.bananas.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=80892

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe15 View Post
Good show Frank, its an interesting cultivar. I was talking with Don Chafin a bit ago and he was wondering why everyone wanted Veinte Cohol so bad all of the sudden, he told me he thought they weren't that good for eating compared to most others..
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

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Originally Posted by Julian View Post
Yes, this is just one of the posts I read (I read MANY) .... and there seemed to be no consensus as to taste. It appeared to be based on complete personal opinion.
I did note, however, some of the more ....?... persnickety ... or shall I say, discerning connoisseurs of a banana's flavor seemed to like it above the Dw. Brazilian.
Soooo, ???? I am left with wondering about how well it could survive to what temps.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:42 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Growing Magazine - Going Bananas in Georgia - November, 2011 - SOUTH FEATURES


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Growing Magazine - November, 2011
SOUTH FEATURES
Going Bananas in Georgia
Little-known variety produces between freezes

Banana enthusiast and researcher Richard Wallace successfully cultivates fast-producing banana plants in the nontropical climate of Southeast Georgia.

Using the Viente Cohol variety, which originated in the Philippines, he is able to plant an 18-inch banana plant after the last freeze of spring, and it flowers and produces mature fruit before the first freeze of winter.

Ag economist Esendugue Greg Fonsah of the UGA inspects an African Red ornamental banana plant-a classic example of an ornamental that can grow successfully in the Southeast. Research on cold-hardy banana plants is defining new potential markets for the region.
PHOTOS COURTESY OF ESENDUGUE GREG FONSAH UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED.

"It has something to offer from a genetic standpoint that's not widely distributed," says Wallace, a classically trained professor of organic chemistry at Armstrong Atlantic State University in Savannah, Ga., where he has conducted banana research since 2002. "The Viente Cohol has a lot of potential because of its cycle time."

With the plant's produce cycle proven, Wallace is now working to find ways to make the Viente Cohol more cold-hardy and broaden what is already considered a potential new market for locally grown banana trees and fruit.

"I think there will come a time when there's a limited commercial potential for this," says Wallace. "Whether or not [Viente Cohol] is the ultimate answer is still out there. Initially, the goal was to see if we could find a banana with cold tolerance that would produce quickly. That's how Viente Cohol was identified."

Greg Fonsah and entomologist Will Hudson, both of the UGA, work at the university's banana farm in Tifton, Ga., where research for the Viente Cohol and other banana cultivars is getting lots of interest from area growers.
A banana obsession

Wallace's love of the banana in all of its glory - ornamental and edible - has been cultivated for many years.

"Bananas have always had a special place in my heart because they are so beautiful. Along the way I discovered there was a lot of unexplored research, and the university allowed me to work on that."

He started out as a backyard breeder, with about 100 banana and citrus plants at home. At the university, where Wallace uses bananas as a teaching tool, he has grown several hundred banana plants during the course of his research.

"This is a beautiful example of organic chemistry and plant biotechnology working together," Wallace says.

The Viente Cohol's unique characteristics emerged in 2005 after Wallace studied more than 50 cultivars in search of an edible banana outside of a tropical environment. He kept modestly sized plants in a protected environment over the winter and then transplanted them in mid-April after the danger of spring frost had passed. Plants as small as 18 inches tall reliably produced mature fruit by mid-October, with an average bunch weight of about 17 pounds and about 160 fingers per bunch.

The Viente Cohol fruit is about 4 inches long and 1 inch in diameter and is smaller than the Cavendish variety most commonly seen year-round in grocery stores. Those who've tasted the banana say it has hints of citrus.

Richard Wallace of Armstrong Atlantic State University in Savannah, Ga., has proven the Viente Cohol banana can produce bananas in Southeast Georgia's nontropical climate.
PHOTO COURTESY OF KATHERINE ARNTZEN.

"This could be a specialty crop, creating jobs, saving fuel and keeping specialties local," he says. "There are so many exciting things to consider."

While interest is growing in the Viente Cohol as it is now, Wallace is developing new hybrids with distantly related but compatible bananas to find even better candidates that would expand the geographic area for banana production in the U.S. and worldwide.
Ready to go

Esendugue Greg Fonsah spends a good bit of time convincing southeastern farmers to be patient. News reports - in publications and on television - about the Viente Cohol's potential in Zone 8 have generated lots of interest in a new locally grown crop.

"Growers know about this product, and they are very excited to start," says Fonsah, an ag economist with the University of Georgia's College of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences and head of the UGA's banana project.

Growers in Georgia and throughout the Southeast have the opportunity to plan ahead for banana crops, including the short-cycle Viente Cohol, which can flower and produce fruit between spring and winter freezes if cultivated properly. Greg Fonsah of the UGA speaks to a group of growers about the potential.

However, he points out that there are a few hurdles relating to logistics and research that need to be cleared before farmers dive in. For example, Viente Cohol seeds and plants are not yet widely available for purchase. Even if they were, there is critical research required to meet EPA regulations for chemical use with banana crops in the U.S.

Fonsah's banana team, which includes a pathologist, an entomologist, and agricultural and bio-engineers, writes feverishly for grants to fund ongoing research that identifies solutions for potential threats from disease and pests. The group's research has already verified viable threats, such as root rot.

"Once we get one grant we'll be able to expedite this; right now money is hard to come by," says Fonsah. "Otherwise, [Viente Cohol] is ready to go."


Bananas multiply, creating instant income potential with seeds and plants. Greg Fonsah extracts banana seeds from a banana tree at the University of Georgia's banana farm in Tifton, Ga.
The research network recently expanded to include scientists at Auburn University in Alabama and Florida A&M University, where Fonsah helped to set up growing facilities.

Fonsah's life has centered around bananas since 1988. He has worked with Del Monte Fresh Produce, Lapanday Food Co. in the Philippines and Aloha Farms, Inc. in Hawaii, where he initiated their banana export market to Japan, Dubai and Hong Kong. He also served as a banana and marketing consultant in many countries. Fonsah is widely published on the subject of bananas. He published a book, "Economics of Banana Production and Marketing in the Tropics: A Case Study of Cameroon," in 1995 and has contributed to other books and published scientific and academic articles almost four dozen times.

Economically speaking, Fonsah easily frames the banana market as a whole: about 99 percent of the $1.5 billion banana market in the U.S. is imported, with only 2,000 acres grown in Hawaii and Florida. Americans consume a third of the world's production, averaging 33 pounds per person each year.

As a niche market, which is what the Viente Cohol would be, Fonsah says bananas will be a powerful investment and a lucrative business. The plants multiply, creating seeds and plants that can be replanted and sold. In addition to producing fruit, the flowers and leaves are also profitable crops.

In addition to the research on the Viente Cohol, the UGA's banana project has identified two other cultivars that may have better potential for bunch sizes. The group is also focused on the potential for cold-hardy banana plants in the landscaping and ornamental industries, and as an alternative energy source.

"This will boost the economy," says Fonsah, who adds that as growers need seed, plants, fertilizer, and chemicals, "this will create employment too."
Banana Bites

Imported: According to the United Fresh Produce Association, the bananas available in the U.S. year-round are primarily imported from Columbia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala and Honduras.

Prices up: Banana prices are up in 2011 because of limited supplies after storms and floods destroyed crops in major Latin American growing regions. Supplies reached normal amounts over the summer and were expected to remain in line with demand through the end of the year barring any additional weather problems.

Concern: The Cavendish banana, the variety found in grocery stores every day, is being threatened by a strain of fungal wilt in Asia and Australia. Industry players are concerned about its potential spread to Latin America.
Finding a Viente Cohol

Whether growers are interested in the Viente Cohol plant for personal, landscaping or commercial uses, they all share one challenge: they need something to grow.

"The bottleneck right now is plant availability," says Gerard Krewer, a blueberry farmer and consultant who was a fruit specialist at the University of Georgia for 28 years. He worked with Wallace on Viente Cohol research extensively. "Until we get some plants available, there's not much that can be done."

Many tropical plant nurseries are relying on tissue cultures to provide plants to buyers, and they are not becoming widely available quickly enough.

Don and Katie Chafin, owners of Katie's Going Bananas farm in Homestead, Fla., say they receive steady interest in Viente Cohol plants from individuals who want them for landscaping and other ventures. Going Bananas is a banana plant nursery and mail order company with between 80 or 90 cultivars at any given time. This is where Wallace encountered his first Viente Cohol.

"The lab has had a problem with tissue culturing the plant," says Don. "In general, all of our field-grown Viente Cohol bananas are doing fine. We're just not able to grow sufficient quantities fast enough to meet the demand. We have many customers who have been waiting some time to get a chance to grow these. At the present time, our projection is in the spring of 2012, depending on winter conditions in Florida and the tissue cultures now being developed."

Among those biological technology companies that provide tissue cultures, Agri-Starts, Inc. of Apopka, Fla., is developing Viente Cohol plants.

"We are planning on having it for sale to growers in the spring in small numbers and build from there," says Ty Strode of Agri-Starts.
Commercial applications

For growers with smaller operations or pick-your-own businesses, the Viente could work nicely as a dancing chicken.

"As I see it, and I'm a farmer, I could use it as a loss leader, as a way to entice people in," says Krewer. "For example, if you are selling pumpkins in the fall, you might offer the bananas and banana ice cream. That would be a big hit. This is a possibility for South Georgia and coastal South Carolina."

In this model, Krewer suggests that the bananas might be sold for $1 a pound, compared to the 59 cents that the Cavendish averages.

Growers considering commercial-scale production need to have a greenhouse for Viente Cohol until a more cold-hardy version is available. Krewer says Viente Cohol responds to lots of fertilizer and irrigation.

The plants a grower puts out should be at least 18 inches tall, and will produce between 15 and 20 pounds. Be prepared - when this fruit ripens it happens all at once.

"My impression is if you put them out and don't take care of them, you won't get anything," he says. "It's not a cheap crop."

Jennifer Paire is a freelance writer based in Canton, Ga.














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Old 07-22-2014, 10:04 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Great information! Thanks for posting. At the end of the video, a # was presented. Well, I called and talked to Dr. Fonsah from the video- great call, comprehensive info. and was welcoming with it too saying if I had more questions, to call again.

The short cycling nature is a definite draw for me (although a Dw. Brazilian is still enticing for the size aspect).
From what I can ascertain, the Veinte Cohol seems to be worth the moderate yield.
Dr. Fonsah did say that they are not cold tolerant --but that's in Georgia...so where I am is a ?? (zone 8b/9).

Sooo, does anyone have/know of a Veinte Cohol procurer with pups? I love to work something out. :-)
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:28 PM   #50 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawler View Post
Regarding cold hardiness, the forum discussion has been inconsistent at best -all depends on writer. As far as I'm concerned with 'cold hardiness', I'm not talking having a potted beautiful plant to take outdoors when it starts to warm up in spring.
Any banana we have will be outside in the ground [zone 8b/9] and as long as it survives winter with minimal care (maybe a heat tape and some frost cloth), I don't care what it looks like just as long as it lives.

SO.... VEINTE COHOL ... what are y'all getting as a typical flowering height?
and just HOW cold surviving is it?
My VC survived winter in Southern California without any issues. Some of the leaves turned brown, but it sprang right back in spring. We had some nights in the mid 30's. I don't think we had anything in the low 30's and no frost in my area.
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawler View Post
Yes, this is just one of the posts I read (I read MANY) .... and there seemed to be no consensus as to taste. It appeared to be based on complete personal opinion.
I did note, however, some of the more ....?... persnickety ... or shall I say, discerning connoisseurs of a banana's flavor seemed to like it above the Dw. Brazilian.
Soooo, ???? I am left with wondering about how well it could survive to what temps.
Call Don or his wife and ask them. No one here has as much experience with bananas. No one has more varieties in their yard. You referenced their site.

Their contact info.
Welcome to Going Bananas of Homestead, Florida!

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Old 07-23-2014, 07:37 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

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Originally Posted by Abnshrek View Post
I don't agree with anyone.. But I like the warm weather folks input. I'd grow both and see how well they endure for your winters.. Do they finish fruit or freeze, and after a side by side test pick what suits you.. I will continue to grow both.. :v)
This is a good suggestion.
In my humble opinion all those contradictory advices emerge because you are searching a failsafe way to add bananas to you yard, while there isn't one.
The best course of action, to me, look like this:

1)Find what may survives in you place;
2)Plant it and see if it really survives. If not, plant something hardier. Otherwise, you can move to something more tender.

Of corse, the best result you get in your yard, the more cultivar you can choose from, the more snob you can afford to be with worse cultivar.

Taste has nothing to do with that because if something doesn't survive, you aren't going to eat it.
Moreover, every tastebud is different, and to me, for example, a good fruit is a sickeningly sweet fruit, while other will turn such fruit down. Rating of fruit affirm how good a fruit is in the subjective experience of the reviewer, often without any frame reference (rarely people say: "i do prefer slightly acid fruit" or "i like bitter notes" when presenting their reviews).

As far as i can tell, you want a (in importance order):

Hardy plant;
Low maintenance (no heaters or such stuff);
Good taste.

With those request i can't tell anything better than dwarf namwah, dwarf orinoco and dwarf brasilian (i talk for the former two from personal experience).

Veinte cohol may be nice but i think it is labour intesive at your place.
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:21 AM   #53 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Welllllllll..... here it is: June 13, 2015.... has been quite some time since all this time trying to decide on (3rd) choice for a banana.

In a nutshell: tried the VC, sent 2 good little guys and, had lots of rain and early cool, one went down fast, the other was not wrapped super well and lost it as well.
So, it is back to deciding on a 3rd variety.
I am either going to get a Dwarf Brazilian or Dwarf Cavendish.
I would love to hear how they compare on their;
  • height
  • cold hardiness
  • production time
  • number produced per flower
  • taste

Regarding taste criteria... for what it's worth, yes, I know I can get Cavendish at the store. But my thought with that is 1. I LIKE store bananas and 2. Usually when grown at home, things are only better.

Any thoughts/experiences with either of these would be greatly appreciated (and/or where I might could pick up either).

Had my RP just put on its first flower yesterday (Thanks Abnshrek!)

Did see a list that said DB -zone 8.5 and DC- zone 9 (Thanks Richard!), but I'd really be curious of folk's experiences. I am zone 8.5 to 9 ...so, on the cusp.

Thanks for ANY input.
Regards,
Lawler
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:50 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Growing DB and DN at my previous home in zone 9b I didn't notice much taste difference but the DB yields were consistantly low compared to DN. It's slightly (pleasantly) a little more sub acid - not overboard like Orinoco.

The zone tolerance chart you said thanks for was a reprint from a prior member - perhaps Joe Real. I like your idea from your previous post of trying something on the list and then moving up or down as appropriate.

With my experiences growing fruiting bananas outdoors year-round in zone 9b, it's difficult to imagine success with the same in zone 8b. I'd have them in a translucent temperature controlled structure throughout the cold seasons.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:38 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Lawler
Recent member here but looking at the picture of your yard....
You have enough space to plant more than a dozen varieties in your yard.
For Heavens Sake...Plant the darn thing already!
So much DRAMA!
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:41 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

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Originally Posted by Going Bananas View Post
Lawler
Recent member here but looking at the picture of your yard....
You have enough space to plant more than a dozen varieties in your yard.
For Heavens Sake...Plant the darn thing already!
Zone 10 is very different than zone 8b for bananas.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:49 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Im sorry.
I cant believe I read all 3 pages
and one year later hes still undecided>>>>
Some hybrid palms can tolerate 8B and lower...
palmtalk.org.(cold hardy palms section) or google for pics:
Jubea x Syagrus, Jubea x Butia, Jubea x Parajubea.

Cheers!

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Old 06-14-2015, 02:02 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

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Im sorry
I cant believe I read all 3 pages
and hes still undecided>>>>
Some hybrid palms can
tolerate 8b...palmtalk.org.
There's ornamental bananas that tolerate 7b -- but not edible ones
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:50 AM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Quote:
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I am either going to get a Dwarf Brazilian or Dwarf Cavendish.
I would love to hear how they compare on their;
  • height
  • cold hardiness
  • production time
  • number produced per flower
  • taste
Get Dwarf Brazilian. For me, those two are not even in the same league. And based on the reactions of my family and friends when I give them fruit, most people agree.

DB wins the flavor comparison hands down, for me and the folks I know. It is also a much hardier plant. That's to say, it handles non-tropical conditions including cool temperatures and low humidity much better.

Under optimal conditions (not mine, but well cared for in the tropics), Dwarf Cavendish will outproduce DB both in number of fruit per bunch and cycle time. But again, you can buy Cavendish fruit in the store any day. Personally, I like the ones from the store better than the home grown DC I grow, which have very strong flavors, but ones that I don't like, like an overripe store-bought fruit, but get that flavor when they are barely ripe.

DB averages a couple feet taller than DC in my yard.
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Old 06-14-2015, 12:06 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Dw.Namwah vs. Raja Puri Vs. Mysore/Pisang Ceylon

Thanks for the feedback! Don't mean to make 'Going Bananas' go bananas
For what it's worth, I DID make a choice for the 3rd variety (VC), which flopped over winter ....had an idea that it would, but wanted to try.
Yes, we have LOTS of space but LITTLE time. Hence, my "particularness" w/ choosing ...don't want to just go throw a plant here and there. We have underground boarders and sprinkler drip system and top boarder for all... which takes time. Nevertheless, yes, need to get off the proverbial pot ...just a lot of other life happening for a while lately.

Thanks so much for the replies.

Just some other 'ammo' someone may want to use... Going Bananas says "he's still undecided" ...well, I'm a 'she' (and none of this Jenner crap going on either) .... so there's the ammo, you know cause "women just can't make up their mind"
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