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Main Banana Discussion This is where we discuss our banana collections; tips on growing bananas, tips on harvesting bananas, sharing our banana photos and stories.


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Old 06-17-2012, 10:55 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

I am looking at doing some landscaping for a friend. Their home is on a freshwater canal not too far from the bay/gulf. They are zone 9a. Are they going to have more protection/stay warmer? Anyone living on the water have any input on this? I'm trying to plan out my landscaping and what will be there year round and what will die down!
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

I think it helps, I am in zone 9 and about 3 miles north of the Gulf of Mexico and it's always a little warmer there compared to the northerly direction. It's just my opinion though.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

Here in Southern California proximity to the ocean makes a big difference. There are some plants that are tough to grow here that grow no problem 20 miles away at the beach.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

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Originally Posted by caliboy1994 View Post
Here in Southern California proximity to the ocean makes a big difference. There are some plants that are tough to grow here that grow no problem 20 miles away at the beach.
Do you think its tougher because of the salt or the temperature?
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:15 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

I found several people on palmtalk that mention micro-climates along canals. They claimed 2-5 degrees warmer near the canal.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

It definitely helps.

Nicolas Naranja is one of the members who takes advantage of the regulating effect of big bodies of water, as his backyard borders the levee of a large lake.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

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It definitely helps.

Nicolas Naranja is one of the members who takes advantage of the regulating effect of big bodies of water, as his backyard borders the levee of a large lake (Pontchartrain?).
So, I should be a little more comfy planting some nanners and gingers there than I would here in the middle of the woods!??! LOL!
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Old 06-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

Yes but it is all relative.

The mass of water is definately going to help relative to the strength of the air mass and the temperature differential.

In Pensacola and all along the Gulf Coast we have barrier islands that almost never freeze even though you can look across the narrow strip of water that separates them from the mainland and see where the mainland is experiencing freezing temperatures. Occasionally the island itself will freeze if the air mass is strong enough.

In mountainous regions it isn't as helpful as the water is usually in a valley and cold air will seek the lowest point it has access to.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreaminofthetropics View Post
Do you think its tougher because of the salt or the temperature?
I think the temperature is what makes the big difference. Temps can be 100 here and 70 at the beach midday, or 35 at night here and maybe 40ish at the beach. The only time it ever gets hot at the beach is during mid fall when the Santa Ana winds pushes hot inland air to the coast. Even that is pretty rare. I would think that bananas wouldn't do as good there though because there is not enough heat.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

It definitely helps being near the water. I'm behind the dike that surrounds Lake Okeechobee. It's such a large body of water that it's effect are felt over quite a long distance. The most important thing about being on a lake in Florida is to be on the south and east shores. Most of our cold weather comes from the northwest so you want the wind blowing over the lake first. My workplace is about 4 miles from the lakeshore and it is generally 6 degrees colder than my house which is on the lakeshore.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

The bigger the body of water the larger the effect. If you are near the ocean then the effect is HUGE, and for a very large area (just look at a zone map and how zone 8 stretches up the east coast and zone 7 on the west coast goes all the way out on some of the Alaskan islands). Ponds have a much smaller effect, but they do help. As cold air settles into low areas there is some heat exchange between the cold air and the water. The effect would be greater with a river or stream as the colder water is carried downstream and the moving water would allow for faster heat exchange. Where I live, a large pond would probably help with those few pesky early and late frosts that tend to zap only my plants that sit at a lower elevation on my property.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

If you are on the north side of a body of water it means absolutely nothing IF you are in a region that gets cold, as in, into the teens as far as the zone is rated, like where I live in Mandeville, LA. People swear up and down that being near the shore of Lake Pontchartrain keeps us warmer in the winter, yet as recent as January of '010 it was 18F at my house, a quarter mile from the lake, and 18F on the lake shore. I have yet to see how 18F that close to the water vs my home is "warmer". I have asked the same people that have sworn up and down about it and their only response is 'Well, it just is warmer by the water.' To which I replied, so the 18 by the lake was warmer than the 18 in my yard? That pretty much shuts 'em up.

Common sense is actually a oxymoron. If one has to say 'it makes common sense' then the problem with that is it is, in fact, wrong. If it has to "make" sense then... it isn't sensible to begin with, right? So being on the north shore of a rather large body of water does not make common sense in regard to temperature moderation.

In Fairhope, AL that same time it got down to 13F. Mobile Bay had cooled down enough tot he point that it stopped moderating the air, plus the fetch was short as the bay is not very wide and the wind was out of the NW.

However, New Orleans does get moderated but only to a point.

The zone you are talking about is fine. The canal won't make much of a difference if there is a span of 3 nights that are quite cold without sufficient daytime heating. Cold is cold. St Petersburg has coconut trees while Tampa doesn't - and can't. Even with the temperatures getting into the upper 20s in St Pete the coconut trees have survived somehow due to either a constant breeze off the Gulf or the fact that up where the crown of the coconut tree is it's not freezing. And St Pete does get moderated - from the Gulf and from Tampa Bay.

The new hardiness zone has where I live as 9A but I don't buy that, it's 8B no matter what they think.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Thumbs up Micro Climate

Kat..you have seen our "Micro Climate"...the Bay definitely saves us when a few degrees makes a difference....once you get in the 20's all bets are off...
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Old 06-23-2012, 01:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

Quote:
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Cold is cold.
Every once in a while you just get these events where there is no hope. Occasionally (every 20-25 years) we'll get an advectional freeze where the wind blows out of the NNE and the lake doesn't help us. This year we had some radiational freezes that took out a lot of production that was more than 1000' from the lake. Normally, there is a good temperature gradient between the lake and the land and that creates some wind, but if you have had cold weather settle in for a few days all bets are off.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Tampa

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Originally Posted by TommyMacLuckie View Post
Cold is cold. St Petersburg has coconut trees while Tampa doesn't - and can't. Even with the temperatures getting into the upper 20s in St Pete the coconut trees have survived somehow due to either a constant breeze off the Gulf or the fact that up where the crown of the coconut tree is it's not freezing. And St Pete does get moderated - from the Gulf and from Tampa Bay.
We live in Tampa and have had Coconut Palms for many years. Unfortunately the Winter of 2009-2010 was the coldest on record..followed by the coldest December on record. So we lost a lot of the tropical plants.

The coconut palm above was in our yard (bearing coconuts) for over ten years......

But hey...we have new ones planted (we have a green variety planted that is much more cold hardy than the Malaysian variety commonly grown in the area).

Our friends in St. Pete and further south in Sarasota also lost Coconut Palms.

However, we typically experience less effects from the cold than our friends as far south as Ft. Meyers due to our proximity to the bay. Our micro climate can be 5 to 10 degrees higher than theirs and this is significant. Yes cold is cold....but if the garden is near the bay..the higher water temperature will help with the air temperature.

Many of the members have been to our garden and toured through the West Indian Avocados (typically only grown in South Florida) and other cold sensitive tropical plants that survived the two brutal contiguous winters (2009-2010 & 2010 - 2011).

We are located on the Peninsula within "Hillsborough Bay" (the smaller peninsula, the larger one is Pinellas County including St. Petersburg):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lorida_map.jpg

Tampa Bay Map


Tampa Bay, the largest open-water estuary in Florida, extends approximately 35 miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico and is 5 to 10 miles wide along most of its length. Four segments make up the open-water section. Hillsborough Bay, the smallest of these segments, receives runoff from a large portion of the city of Tampa. The Hillsborough and Alafia Rivers drain into Hillsborough Bay, as do a number of smaller tributaries. Middle Tampa Bay receives runoff from the Little Manatee River and drainage from smaller tributaries along the Hillsborough and Pinellas County coastlines. Old Tampa Bay receives runoff from portions of Clearwater, St. Petersburg, and Tampa. Lower Tampa Bay, which has the largest volume of the four segments, connects the mouth of the bay to the Gulf of Mexico. The Manatee River, which receives runoff from the city of Bradenton, flows into the southern portion of this bay segment.

Tampa Bay Watershed - Hillsborough River, Alafia River, Manatee River - Florida's Water: Ours to Protect

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Old 06-23-2012, 03:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Does being waterfront help with how cold it gets for frost protection?

@rmplmnz Do you know if anyone grows bananas on the area that comes out west of bradenton. Seems like they would be very warm.
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Terra Ceia

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@rmplmnz Do you know if anyone grows bananas on the area that comes out west of bradenton. Seems like they would be very warm.
Nicolas as always you have a keen eye....absolutely..

The area is referred to as Terra Ceia (not to be confused with Terra Verde on the North Side of the Sunshine Skyway bridge).

A good friend of mine, Paula, "Birds & Bananas" "Hand Fed Baby Macaws & 63 + Varieties of Bananas" sold banana plants for many years..she was a great person and always shared new varieties with me. Unfortunately she had some health issues and moved to Central America.

I have not heard from her in over ten years.

Presumably she spread quite a few banana plants through the community.
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