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Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 07:11 AM

California-Croatia
 
Considering that Croatia is in almosts same or simmilar climate region as California, well, according to many facts, one of them is that California is full of Croatians that emigrated there from 1910-1950 and mostly growing grapes and olives there as they used back home, and many tourists that visit my region founds many climate simmilarity specially with San Diego region I would like if somebody of CA members can write me a kind of list of naners and exotic fruits that U grows there withouth special winter protection. Hope that I have explained this right :).
Thanks for sharing!
:woohoonaner:

Jack Daw 07-06-2009 07:34 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Well, surely:

Musa 'California Gold'
Musa 'California Cold Hardy'
Musa 'Orinoco'

sunfish 07-06-2009 08:01 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
I am growing all the bananas listed in my profile . Four different varieties of guava, avocado ,some passion vines all without any winter protection.

Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 08:04 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Hahaha, that looks to me that U grow all world spicies:ha::ha:
What are average winter temp. there?
:woohoonaner:

sunfish 07-06-2009 08:08 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
I am nine miles from the ocean average low 40.

Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 08:19 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Allmost identical. Im on sea side with average low 43F and strong winds.
:woohoonaner:

sunfish 07-06-2009 08:41 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
You have better conditions than me. you should be able to grow many different types of bananas. The guava should do very well for you.

momoese 07-06-2009 09:42 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
West LA 9 miles to the ocean. Average elevation of 126 feet above sea level.

2005 avg low 56, low 43
2006 avg low 56, low 39
2007 avg low 55, low 34
2008 avg low 55, low 39
2009 avg low 54, low 39

No protection at all except 2007 during the arctic blast when the baby mango tree and pineapples were covered in a makeshift mini greenhouse. All the banana leaves died.

I'm growing Banana, papaya, pineapple, mango, fig, citrus

The neighbor directly behind me has a full grown mango tree and avocado trees that get no protection.

Richard 07-06-2009 09:46 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Ante,

Tony (Bananas.org - View Profile: sunfish), Jon (Bananas.org - View Profile: pitangadiego), and I are all growing bananas in San Diego. Jon is by far the most adventurous and experienced, with over 100 varieties in his front yard. We are all about 15 kilometers from the ocean. There is an almost constant on-shore (easterly) breeze of about 5 km/hour. However, several times a year there is also a weather phenomena that causes a very hot wind to blow off the continent out to the ocean (westerly) at about 60 km/hour for 1/2 to 3 days at a time. The three of us are close enough to the ocean that summer temperatures rarely exceed 35 C although we have plenty of days above 30 C. Our winters are cool with day time temperatures of 15-20 C and night time temperatures around 5 C. I am at a slightly higher elevation and have maybe 10 nights per year where the temperature is 1-2 C for a few hours. Two years ago we had an unusual freeze (once in 50 years) where the temperatures dropped to -2 C at my location for several hours. There are locations between my home and the ocean down in canyons (Rancho Santa Fe) where it freezes every night for weeks during the winter. Our annual rainfall is only 10-15 cm per year. Our humidity is also "upside down" for near-tropical plants: it is warm and dry (50-60%) during the day and cool (15-20 C) and humid (80-100%) at night. The cool-and-humid night time condition is ideal for many types of fungus infections on near-tropical plants, especially root rot.

The bananas I would recommend to you are:
Dwarf Brazilian
Dwarf Namwa
Sweetheart

For my own use, I am also growing:
African Rhinohorn
1000 Fingers
Dwarf Orinoco
Ty Ty Gold

And for nursery stock, I am growing another 20+ varieties.

Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 10:48 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Thank You all!
These are great refferences and helpfull advices.
I will give my best to collect some of these spicies U all recomend me in few years and than find one most suitablle for growing here.
Hoe do U propagate mango and papayas?
Richard, special thanks to U for Celsius scale, rare will do that!
:woohoonaner:

sunfish 07-06-2009 11:02 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Papaya and mango are very easy to start from seed of store bought fruit.

Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 11:08 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sunfish (Post 83181)
Papaya and mango are very easy to start from seed of store bought fruit.

Thank You Tony,
now I just need to find where to buy these:ha::ha::ha:
Joke a side, so just sow them regulary?
:woohoonaner:

Jack Daw 07-06-2009 11:16 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap (Post 83184)
Thank You Tony,
now I just need to find where to buy these:ha::ha::ha:
Joke a side, so just sow them regulary?
:woohoonaner:

I don't know you Ante, Papayas ar way cooler than Mango, mangos taste rather strange. But what I would definitelly grow in your conditions is maracuja (Passiflora). It's juice can be used in any kitchen (Croatian, Chinese, ...) and any drink to emphasize the original flavour and add other interesting, yet tropical flavors as well.

Don't worry about Dwarf Brazilian, as soon as mine has pups, you've got it reserved. ;)

Dalmatiansoap 07-06-2009 11:20 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Jack, I really dont know a s*** about tropical fruits:ha::ha::ha:
Never tryed that maracuja either (well, only ice cream, but I dont think that is same).
:woohoonaner:

sunfish 07-06-2009 11:27 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
I sow papaya seed right on the surface or plant very sallow , mango seeds are are covered half way. I have a two year old Passion vine Fredericks it has at least two hundered fruit on it now.

Jack Daw 07-06-2009 11:58 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap (Post 83190)
Jack, I really dont know a s*** about tropical fruits:ha::ha::ha:
Never tryed that maracuja either (well, only ice cream, but I dont think that is same).
:woohoonaner:

I am trying to germinate some passiflora bought in Tesco. So unless it's country of origin (India) was hot enough (ha ha ha), they should be vital and I will have lots and lots of plants. This fruit is so full of seeds. ;) :D

Kalabrian 07-07-2009 09:59 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Dalmatian, I strongly disagree that your climate can be compared to that of California, and neither mine who am more south than you.

First of all California itself has a range of different climates, and also if we only consider the coasts, there are three main area to consider (south-central-north). Apart from this, while min temp can be compared, the difference in latitude must not be set aside. Let me try to explain.

The point is that our Mediterranean sea acts as an insulator thus keeping the low temp very mild. In the Usa this doesn't happen. Just consider that the typical frost that you have (around 0 to -3 degrees) occurs in California down to San Diego, which is much lower than you are in latitude. In other words you are maybe around 43-44 of latitude, and you have frosts of such a mild intensity that can be compared to areas of the USA much more south in latitude. Me for example, I am at latitude 39, which corresponds barely to the north tip of California, but my region's min temp are infinitely milder than north California, much milder than central California, and almost equal to far south California. However there are in my region also areas totally frost-free which can rarely be found in Cali also in the south. Discussing for example with Richard we found that my hillside's min temp are not far different from his San Diego location, even if my hillside location is at 560 m of altitude and 20 km from the sea. So my coast compared to San Diego coast is milder. Many other examples could be taken, as the south of Texas or south Arizona where at very low latitude the min temp are similar to my hills' location, and cooler than my coast (with the exception of the rio grande valley which is almost equal to some coastal areas here). Moreover, all these areas have periodical critical freezes which are rare in the Mediterranean. For example all the rio grande palm vegetation was destroyed to the ground after the 83 and 89 historical freezes, where entire days under the 0 (ice days) where recorded, a thing which in the Mediterranean never occurs not even at higher latitude (like the French coast or you area).

However, this is only half of the story.

If min temp are determined by various different factors, much more the difference of latitude can be perceived on the max temp. The max temp they have in San Diego, in Corpus Christi, in Phoenix, Houston, etc are much different than ours, and this especially in winter. This has a great impact on many plant's resistance to cold. In fact, it is usually easier for certain sub-tropical trees to recover from a slight night frost if the day-after daily temp reaches 18-20 as usually happen. In other cases it is just the contrary, because plants (especially bananas) don't go sleeping because of high daily temp and then can be more easily frozen by night frost. But all in all, high temp are a relevant factor which must be considered. The summ of all this is that very simply the conditions are different, and while a comparison is useful, and me myself I try to compare to search the best plants to grow, it cannot be stated that the climate is almost equal, as you said.

A friend here answered about his winter temp. Observe that while the min temp can be similar or equal to yours, this cannot be said of max winter temp. He said daily temp of 15-20. You cannot have these temp in Croatia. Of course here also we have 16-18 in Jan and Feb, but 19-20 is a rare event and I am more south than you. Here also it happens to have days in the 12-15.

These points I had to made them clear because you cannot base you chances on comparison whith such different climate. But it doesn't mean you cannot grow anything. You can grow a lot of things, I think, at least if your min temp are taken from official sources. I want to give some suggestions on things that are more easy for you to grow:

- Avocado, varieties Zutano, Mexicola. Also the Hess and Ettinger can be tried. Usually the Hess has Bacon as pollinator, but it's only half necessary.

- Annona. variety Fino de Jete, only if you have as record low no more than -3. Basically if lemons grow outside unprotected.

- Papaya is very difficult to grow. In any case you need heavy winter protection or grow them in pot and winter recovering. But you can try Babaco (carica pentagona) and Carica quercifolia (which has very small fruit but is very hardy).

- The best mango varieties in Mediterranean conditions seems to be Kensington. However at your latitude you will still need winter protections and much care. I am not sure youcan grow it but you can give a try. The same applies to litchi.

- Passiflora, especially the purple-fruit. You should plant it near a wall where it can climb. The wall will act as insulator.

There are many other things you can grow depending on your will. We can continue the discussion if you have particular clues.

Best regards

Jack Daw 07-07-2009 12:01 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalabrian
Dalmatian, I strongly disagree that your climate can be compared to that of California, and neither mine who am more south than you.

Kalabrian, I know that you didn't mean it like that, but Dalmatian is a race of dogs. :D
Flecky and white ones. ;) Ante would be better. :D

Kalabrian 07-07-2009 01:54 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Of course, I apologize...

Coming back to the point, here on the coast it is possible to grow Mango. In Sicily and parts of Calabria there are commercial groves now, but I do not know if this can be done more north. I know only one person who grows them as north as Liguria, which is on the Tyrrhenian side (warmer than the Adriatic) but he lives at 20 meters from the sea (not exagerating).

Papaya is more difficult because here also, in the warmer areas it needs at least a soft protection. I know of some people growing it with no protection but they are really in a particular location at the southern tip of the region with sea on two sides.

Annona seems easier, in a relative sense. Here in Calabria there are many many groves now, for many people are replacing citrus groves with annonas, since the price of the citrus is very low (25-30 cents of euro at wholesale). But they are grown in frost-free areas still. Maybe you could be succesful with that, but they suffer frost very much.

Another thing which you could try is Jaboticaba, which tolerates slight frosts.

Things which you can grow almost for sure instead are:
Casimiroa Edulis
Dovyalis Caffra

I would focus on these latter, maybe together with a Mexican Avocado and a purple Passiflora.

Jack Daw 07-07-2009 02:31 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Nice tips. There are however also other things that you might consider growing, especially, when you have smaller garden or more stylish oriented, fruits like maracuja are a perfect landscaping choice as their flowers can be seen throughout the year and they are really beautiful.

Also you could try Ananas comosus, but cover it well for the frosts (which is deadly for most varieties), but you can grow this lovely plant also in small pots (really small, not like nanas). There was one time that I had about 20 plants, all from the store bought fruit and of these, 10 I gave away, 6 fruited and 4 died in sudden late frosts about 2 years ago. Now I have only few pieces (5 to 10), just to have some fruit throughout the year. Pineapples are very expensive here (3€ a rotten piece), so it was a good time investmen on my part. :D
They however take very long to ripen and require specific conditions, otherwise the fruit will be too acidic (like citrons or lemons, sour) or undeveloped. I had in my life about 10 homegrown pineapples from my region and I must say, that it's way better fresh from the plant than from the store (sometimes they were even ripening 15 months, sometimes I had to force them to ripen, but they always ended up well colored and tasty).

Also, if you choose landscaping plants with a purpose (such as nanas), you can always view alphabetical list of Floridata, real cool, only the best of the best got in, there's also a wide list of palm trees along with reported frost damage...
Floridata: Plant Profile List

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 09:15 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Well, back on a tracks!
I have one papaya (fruit) from store, so the question is can I and how prepare seeds from fruit for sowing?
Do I have to dry them first or what?
Man has to start with something:ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:

Jack Daw 07-15-2009 11:10 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap (Post 84587)
Well, back on a tracks!
I have one papaya (fruit) from store, so the question is can I and how prepare seeds from fruit for sowing?
Do I have to dry them first or what?
Man has to start with something:ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:

Here you go Ante, good luck:
Germinating papaya seeds...
Germinating papaya seeds - Tropicals Forum - GardenWeb

Richard 07-15-2009 11:21 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap (Post 84587)
I have one papaya (fruit) from store, so the question is can I and how prepare seeds from fruit for sowing?

Ante,
I'm hoping it is Mexican papaya or something suitable for your climate. The zone 12 papayas from Africa are going to have a tough time!

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 11:25 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard (Post 84606)
Ante,
I'm hoping it is Mexican papaya or something suitable for your climate. The zone 12 papayas from Africa are going to have a tough time!

Ou, Richard
it is from Eqator. I think Hawaian typ maybe. Worth trying :).
:woohoonaner:

Richard 07-15-2009 11:30 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Plants are always worth trying! But it is a zone 12 variety.

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 11:40 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
:(. Any varieties for 9?
:woohoonaner:

Kalabrian 07-15-2009 11:54 AM

Re: California-Croatia
 
The only varieties for 9, as said, are Carica Pentagona (babacus) and Carica Quercifolia (oak-leaved papaya). Both have fruits quite different from what is generally meant by "papaya". However they are worth a try.

I have some plants very small of quercifolia but searching for a babacus. I strongly suggest you to search one of these as ordinary papaya will have a though time there and you will make the poor plant suffer and suffer. I do not want to seem nasty, I am only saying, if you want to grow papaya you have to recover them inside the house in winter or you will lost them. Sorry but it is the sad truth.

Richard, I have a story concerning African papaya. Usually as you said is the less hardy. However I know a family from Seychelle who coming here to Calabria as immigrants brought back seeds of a Papaya which is popular at their location on the mountains. They did not tell me exactly but their description was that they lived in a very elevated place in Seychelles, while of course I am sure it was a frost-free still. In any case these papayas produce very well in their new home in Calabria and as far as now is the only case of such a successful production here. All other people have to cover papayas in winter even in the most warm frost-free areas. They instead do not cover the plants and have plenty fruit. They promised me seeds but I do not see them from a while now and I do not know right now how to contact them, as they live quit far from my home (200 km).

However it must be precised that the record low in their location in Calabria is something like 2 degrees C ABOVE the zero, which equals maybe to 35-36 F.

Peace to all

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 01:32 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Probably is so, but I want to try anyway. Even kick in ass is step forward, right?:ha:

Jack Daw 07-15-2009 02:01 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalmatiansoap (Post 84634)
Probably is so, but I want to try anyway. Even kick in ass is step forward, right?:ha:

I knew you would go like this. We're just so similar. ;) :D
It depends on how strong the kick was and where precisely.

You know Ante, I grow citruses in large pots with special Slovak cutting style applied mostly for apples. So who's crazier? :D

john_ny 07-15-2009 02:08 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Ante - You do not have to dry the seeds. However, they will germinate much quicker if you rub off the shiny, clear, gelatinous covering that is there when you remove them from the fruit.

The picture, below, shows two trays. Both were planted the same day. The one on the right had the coatings removed; the one on the left did not. The picture was taken 18 days after sowing.

[IMG][/IMG]

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 02:23 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
That is just what I am looking for. Thank you John!

pitangadiego 07-15-2009 05:29 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
Mexican Papaya seems pretty cold tolerant, at least to 38F with no issues. The hawaiian ones seem to do almost as well, if you can get them through at least one winter. The first winter, anything below 50ish gets really touchy. Too much water in cold weather is a complete killer - they rot very easy.

Dalmatiansoap 07-15-2009 06:18 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
They will be indoors for first winter pretty shore and if it goes well next spring in open and what will be will be. Just need to find nice shaltered spot for them, well, for strongest one.
Hey Pitangadiego, I was browsing your web for few times and U have really good things and informations there. Specially like figs part and I m going to have a few questions for U if U wouldnt mind later this fall.
Well I did many stupid things in my life beafore so this papaya sowing will not be first for sure:ha::ha::ha:
I just love U guys:ha::ha::ha::ha:
:woohoonaner:

Dalmatiansoap 11-04-2009 01:22 PM

Re: California-Croatia
 
I recived Passiflora seed from Tony in California today.
I ll give my best ;)

:woohoonaner:
Hey Mr. Green Spring, Im comming ;)


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