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Old 10-08-2007, 08:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

What would be the best species or cultivar to use to create a cold hardy edible plant? I was thinking Musa helens hyrid would be a good start, since it allready has been crossed once, and seeds would be easy to transport down south to Mexico. There is allready alot of cultivars(dwarf cavendish, sumatra, giant cavendishes, saba looking ones, reds, and alot of other mystery ones) in the town where my family has a place in Nayarit, so maybe that would be a good start. There is also alot of high elevation bananas over in(michouacan) where we had to buy sweaters and pants to fend off the cold rain in late June! I wonder how cold winters are!
What other cold hardy species(from seed) would be good?
Would I have to do a couple back crosses(with hybrids) to get a seedless fruit or could I get lucky on the first try? Also would the chances for seedless fruit be increased by using the edible plant as a MOTHER or a POLLEN DONOR?
I think it would be best to bring the seeds, but I could try to bring plants later. Maybe M.dwarf brazilian, M. Dwarf orinico, for cold hardy parents to cross with Helens hybrid.
One last thing I was wondering if Musa helens hybrid (sikkimensisXchimi.champa), was a sikkimensis that was crossed with a tetraploid like FHIA 1, FHIA 3, instead of a diploid (chimi champa), would that increase the chances of getting a edible? If so then those would also be some cultivars worth taking south.
This isn't the easiest subject to wrap my head around, and I seem to have to relearn it every once in a while, so any imput that would help me would be great.
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Banana breeding is a very complicated process and to create seedless, edible bananas is not as easy as just doing a few basic cross pollinations. It takes years to do all of the breeding and selection before a desirable plant is created.

'Helens Hybrid' is really unknown in terms of genetics, its still a hobbyists variety and there is no DNA work done on it that I know of. It is reported as being a M. sikkimensis/M. 'Chini Champa' hybrid (SS+AB, which has the potential to result in anything from diploid to heptaploid, but since bananas loose vigor beyond tetraploid, it has to be either 2X, 3X or 4X), and if they truly are harvesting all of this true to type seed, you could only assume that it is both fertile (male and female) and self compatible. However, this would be really unusual for a banana to behave like that, so I am definetly not convinced that it is as simple as being a M. sikkimensis M. 'Chini Champa' hybrid. I've never seen 'Helens Hybrid' flower (except one picture of the fruit bunch), but without examining the male flowers for viable pollen and maybe doing some test crosses with some wild diploid pollen on its female flowers, I don't really feel comfortable saying anything about its true genetics or breeding habits. Also, 'Helens Hybrid' is often touted as a "as close to a truly cold hardy edible banana as you can get", but it must be remembered that if they are able to harvest all of this true-to-type seed, then the fruit must be seeded, and thus not considered an edible banana at all, so in that aspect its no better of a breeding candidate than any wild species.

I don't even know where to go from here really, its such a large and complicated area. Basically, if you want to get serious about breeding I recommend buying Simmonds "The Evolution of the Bananas", and go from there, because there are really hundreds of different things to consider when breeding bananas. Banana genetics are very different from most plants, and they tend to do lots of special things not commonly observed in other plants when breeding, so to understand how to best approach breeding you really need to first familiarize yourself with many of the different aspects and facets that are unique to bananas.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Thanks Gabe,
Maybe it would be better to stick to cross seedless edibles, but from what you say it's alot more complicated, and I might end up getting seeded ones by that method also.
Probally best to stick to ornamental crosses, but you did help clarify that nagging question about helens hybrid.
Maybe a better idea just to try to dig and import some of those high elevation ones allready growing there, who knows they might be from the same area as Musa CA gold. They certainly have been around a long time in the area, and I even saw some Phoenix dactylefera (Date Palm) that was the orange stem/petiole kind thats very rare and usually only found in Spain, but it was growing in some really remote places that the Spainish inhabitated(keeping to the highlands to avoid malaria on the coast). Anyways I'll bet they brought in some nanars way back when too, and maybe they were already cold hardy, or mutated or the past few 100 years.
I'm all ears if ya have any more ideas about hybridizing.
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Old 10-11-2007, 11:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Hi,

in another thread I wrote about hardy fruit banana hybrids with basjoo parentage.

We really need very hardy fruit bananas which are as hardy as basjoo and hardier than sikkimensis for cold climate like Germany, France, U.K., Netherlands, northern states of the U.S., Argentina, Southern Chile, in the highlands of South Brazil, New Zealand, Southern Australia, Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Russia (in the south), Switzerland, Austria, Hungaria and other colder countries.

Helen's Hybrid is good, but not hardy enough to get a very hardy fruit bananas, better basjoo. Best might be:

basjoo x sikkimensis
basjoo x Helen's Hybrid
basjoo x Chini Champa
basjoo x FHIA-01
basjoo x FHIA-02
basjoo x FHIA-03

Also you can try:
basjoo x xishuangbanaensis
basjoo x itinerans Indian Form
basjoo x yunnanensis
basjoo x balbisiana

You have to use basjoo to cross! basjoo is diploid and FHIA-01 is tetraploid. If you try cross basjoo with FHIA-01, then you might get one triploid hardy and disease resistant fruit banana.

It is not possible to cross diploid with triploid. Dwarf Orinoco is triploid, also Dwarf Brazilian is triploid. But you can try it, take pollen from Dwarf Orinoco or Dwarf Brazilian to basjoo. Better you take pollen from sikkimensis, Helen's Hybrid, Chini Champa and FHIA cultivars to basjoo. Before you give the pollen to the basjoo, you must castrate the basjoo. To castrate the basjoo, you have to cut the forming male flowers off. After the pollinating the female flowers you have to pack the stalk into one plastic bag to protect the cross.

I also will try it in South Brazil. I am planning to buy a house with 3619 square metres in Lucianópolis.

You can grow basjoo from seed, no problem. I also grew one basjoo from seed with success, the plant is 3 years old.

But Gabe15 is right, it is not very simple to breed hardy bananas, but give a try!

Best wishes
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

I don't feel M. basjoo is a good candidate for breeding with. In test crosses, it has a very hard time crossing with anything other than M. itinerans, and thats just wild diploids. Seed set is even more difficult when working with edibles, and although it is very hardy, there may be better options. There is known at least one M. acuminata-like species discovered in China that grows at 8,000ft with very large bunches of fruit, these highlands species tend to be very hardy. A M. balbisiana is also known that grows in an area that receives frost and snow, and it still flowers. If/when these become available, they are much better choices in my opinion for breeding. I know it is difficult to get new plants introduced sometimes, but perhaps they will be made available some day.
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:04 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

A acuminata-like species from the very cold highlands in China might bear edible fruits when it is triploidized, one hardy form of the famous Canary Banana Dwarf Cavendish, Hardy Dwarf Cavendish!

Might be much better than Musa basjoo as one cross partner if hardy to zone 6 (of course with basjoo winter protection, hardier than Musa sikkimensis, perhaps even some hardier than Musa basjoo). It will be best, to cross the new acuminata-like hardy banana with Helen's Hybrid, Chini Champa and sikkimensis, it will get good fruits.

Yes, Musa balbisiana might be crossed with this new species.

The time will tell us! It is also one import problem of new banana species to Brazil, I plan to breed hardy and disease resistent bananas for colder areas of South America, Europe and the U.S. in Brazil. The time will also tell me how sucessful it will be.

Oh yes, how is the new hardy acuminata-like species described and named? Pictures? It could be for my banana book!

Best wishes
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

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Originally Posted by Basjoofriend View Post
A acuminata-like species from the very cold highlands in China might bear edible fruits when it is triploidized, one hardy form of the famous Canary Banana Dwarf Cavendish, Hardy Dwarf Cavendish!

Might be much better than Musa basjoo as one cross partner if hardy to zone 6 (of course with basjoo winter protection, hardier than Musa sikkimensis, perhaps even some hardier than Musa basjoo). It will be best, to cross the new acuminata-like hardy banana with Helen's Hybrid, Chini Champa and sikkimensis, it will get good fruits.

Oh yes, how is the new hardy acuminata-like species described and named? Pictures? It could be for my banana book!
Well, you would need to do a lot more than just triploidize it, remember that being triploid has nothing to do with being parthenocarpic, a plant must first be parthenocarpic to form seedless fruit, being triploid simply is an advantage because it usually helps keep the plant sterile so seeds do not form (in addition to other advantages). This is why in order to utilize wild species for breeding, they must be bred with an edible variety that has the parthenocarpic trait (which is a chemical process independent from ploidy levels), if you just make wild species triploid, you will have sterile plants that are not able to form ripe fruit either.

The new highland one does not have a name yet as it is not published. There are many new species in China (and all over Asia for that matter), they may be published in the next few years or so or maybe longer, it takes a long to properly study them and publish them.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Perhaps there are also wild species which are hardier and better than Musa basjoo. In one future edition of my banana book I will publish the new species. Also in one new banana book for Southern Brazil in Portuguese. Because many Brazilians love my reference edition of my banana book, they found my book beautiful. But most of them don`t speak German, only Portugese. But I'm just learning the Portuguese language of Brazil. Eu sou aprendando português com minha filha de hospede brasileira agora. A gente do Brasil gosta de meu livro da banana. Também minha mulher está aprendando.

Best wishes
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

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Originally Posted by Basjoofriend View Post
It is not possible to cross diploid with triploid. Dwarf Orinoco is triploid, also Dwarf Brazilian is triploid.
That's not entirely true. Triploid varieties can pollinate other varieties. The fertility of the pollen is about 9 times lower, but that's still enough for pollenation.
It's even possible for triploids to serve as the female parent but the issue is there are so exceedingly few seeds (only 1 or 2 seeds per bunch of bananas, and even far lower for Cavendish, 1 per every 100 bunches).

References:
Pollen fertility in Musa: Viability in cultivars grown in Southern Australia, J. A. Fortescue, D. W. Turner, Australian Journal of Agricultural Research, January 2004
Improvement of Cavendish Banana Cultivars through Conventional Breeding, J.F. Aguilar Morán Fundación Hondureña de Investigación Agrícola (FHIA) La Lima Honduras


Quote:
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Well, you would need to do a lot more than just triploidize it, remember that being triploid has nothing to do with being parthenocarpic, a plant must first be parthenocarpic to form seedless fruit, being triploid simply is an advantage because it usually helps keep the plant sterile so seeds do not form (in addition to other advantages). This is why in order to utilize wild species for breeding, they must be bred with an edible variety that has the parthenocarpic trait (which is a chemical process independent from ploidy levels), if you just make wild species triploid, you will have sterile plants that are not able to form ripe fruit either.
I may be mistaken but I believe simply getting a triploid banana variety is enough to make it seedless, or virtually seedless, though there might be one or two seeds in the bunch. The Cavendish variety (commonly sold in supermarkets) is even more exceedingly seedless though.

The advantage of using a seedless banana variety for pollination is there's a possibility the combined progeny will end up seedless again down in the third generation.

A substantial fraction of the triploid pollen that is viable is unreduced, meaning it still carries a full triploid set in its gamete. (It's not that the probability of escaping unreduced is inherently higher in triploids, but rather so few of the triploids that do undergo division are viable) When this combines with a normal haploid gamete, the result is a tetraploid.
3n + 1n = 4n.
When a tetraploid banana then crosses again with a normal diploid (seeded), the result is a triploid, which will be seedless.
4n --> 2n + 2n
2n --> 1n + 1n
2n + 1n = 3n
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

That is all true but being sterile and being parthenocarpic are two different things if you breed a sterile non parthenocarpic banana it will flower but never set fruit.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

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That is all true but being sterile and being parthenocarpic are two different things if you breed a sterile non parthenocarpic banana it will flower but never set fruit.
I'm a little confused. I'm not really an expert in the botany of bananas specifically, but there are different types of sterility. Sometimes certain cultivars can be referred to as "sterile" even though they may not be entirely completely sterile.

Again, I am not entirely sure (and please correct me if wrong), but in the case of bananas, I think triploids can set fruit without forming seeds, and without having to be parthenocarpic. This may be because fertilization has been initiated, but the seeds just never form (or are underformed). A plant is regarded as sterile if it doesn't form viable seed.

It's possible I'm not really disagreeing with what you stated and this could just be a semantics point.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Put ploidy aside as the following applies to all levels. bananas can be male sterile, female sterile or both, the female flowers can also be female or complete. This is a seperate function to the parthenocarpy. Parthenocarpic bananas can be Male or female fertile to certain degrees and if pollinated will set seed. Bananas that dont carry the genes for parthenocarpy wont fruit without pollination and if theres fruit it will have seed even if unviable. The genes for the parthenocarpy are all on the A genome, it is current thinking thst there are no BB, BBB or BBBB domestic edible bananas.
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Old 09-30-2018, 12:15 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

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Bananas that dont carry the genes for parthenocarpy wont fruit without pollination and if theres fruit it will have seed even if unviable.
I believe triploid cultivars can produce fruit from pollination without producing seed, or at least the seed will be underformed (in the case of bananas, tiny black specks in the flesh you won't even notice).


8 things you didn't know about bananas
"The yellow thing you peel and eat is, in fact, a fruit because it contains the seeds of the plant. Although since bananas have been commercially grown, the plants are sterile, and the seeds have gradually been reduced to little specs.
And to clarify more banana terminology: bananas grow in what are known as 'hands', so-called because of their appearance, which make up the larger stalk, known as a 'bunch'."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...-about-bananas

"There are close to 1,000 species of banana today. Most of them are inedible - they carry hard pea-sized seeds, and have only a small amount of bad-tasting flesh. The botanists think that about 10,000 years ago, probably in South-East Asia, a random mutation produced a sterile banana with no seeds and lots of flesh that could be eaten uncooked. The internal dark lines and spots inside today's banana are the vestigial remnant of these seeds."
Banana fruit and tree › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science (ABC Science)

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Old 09-30-2018, 01:31 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal2warm View Post
I believe triploid cultivars can produce fruit from pollination without producing seed, or at least the seed will be underformed (in the case of bananas, tiny black specks in the flesh you won't even notice).


8 things you didn't know about bananas
"The yellow thing you peel and eat is, in fact, a fruit because it contains the seeds of the plant. Although since bananas have been commercially grown, the plants are sterile, and the seeds have gradually been reduced to little specs.
And to clarify more banana terminology: bananas grow in what are known as 'hands', so-called because of their appearance, which make up the larger stalk, known as a 'bunch'."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...-about-bananas

"There are close to 1,000 species of banana today. Most of them are inedible - they carry hard pea-sized seeds, and have only a small amount of bad-tasting flesh. The botanists think that about 10,000 years ago, probably in South-East Asia, a random mutation produced a sterile banana with no seeds and lots of flesh that could be eaten uncooked. The internal dark lines and spots inside today's banana are the vestigial remnant of these seeds."
Banana fruit and tree › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science (ABC Science)



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Old 09-30-2018, 02:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Seedless fruits

QUESTION: Why do plants like banana produce fruits if there are no seeds meant for dispersal?

P. Sapna, Chennai

ANSWER 1: Fruits are a product of fertilization. Generally fruits will germinate into plants that will again flower, offering another opportunity for fertilization. But the bananas we find in the store bear tiny almost-remnants of seeds that will not germinate, but the wild, banana "fruits" have seeds.

The botanical term parthenocarpy refers to the development of ovary of a flower into a fruit without fertilization. And these fruits are seedless.

Fruits that develop parthenocarpically are typically seedless. Some seedless fruits come from sterile triploid plants, with three sets of chromosomes rather than two.

The triploid seeds are obtained by crossing a fertile tetraploid (4n chromosomes) with a diploid (2n chromosomes) plant.

Male flowers of the diploid plant provide the pollen that pollinates (but does not fertilize) the sterile plant. The act of pollination induces fruit development without fertilization. The small black dots seen inside banana are the remnants of aborted ovules that did not mature into seeds.

Banana has an asexual reproduction where the new plants are identical in every respect to the parent plant. The asexual reproduction involves no union of cells or nuclei of cells; there is not mingling of genetic traits too.

The plants die after they have produced fruits and are replaced by others that arise from the underground stem, and that process can keep on going for many years.

https://www.thehindu.com/seta/2005/0...0301251600.htm
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

Sounds like triploid bananas are seedless because they are triploid, but not parthenocarpic.
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Old 09-30-2018, 04:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Best cultivars for cold hardy cross pollination

What they wrote is true but shows an incomplete understanding. "Some seedless fruits come from sterile triploid plants"? Thats great but in the case of musa there are also parthenocarpic diploid and tetraploid sterile plants producing fruit as well as fertile diploid triploid and tetraploid producing seedless and seeded fruit depending on pollination. The parthenocarpy of the banana is dependent on the genes not ploidy. The 4 x 2 method is one i mentioned above and is usually the end of a line of crosses on both sides of the parentage to imbue the final triploid with the genetic characteristics desired. Parthenocarpy is simply one such genetic characteristic. Also bananas can fruit with absolutely no pollination at all. Grow a variety in isolation that has female only female flowers chop off the bud before any Male flowers open, it will still fruit.
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