ARH - Fruit splits on day 64 - Page 2

bananimal · 09-06-2012, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunfish

Now I don't unnerstand again I thought it was petiole emergence

Will you stop!? Put that beer down and pay attention!!!

We don't use that PE term any more.

It's Peduncle. Or Pedaunt.

sunfish · 09-06-2012, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananimal

Will you stop!? Put that beer down and pay attention!!!

We don't use that PE term any more.

It's Peduncle. Or Pedaunt.

Don't drink maybe I should start

PR-Giants · 10-14-2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnshrek

Mr. Mudd Bricks.. That's pretty nifty.. :^)
On a serious note.. w/ your p-stem heights varying like you say they do.. on the short one's how much smaller is the p-stem in circumference vs tall?

At the height of 30" above where the highest pup and corm intersect, a tall ARH pseudostem wil have a circumference around 30" while a shorter one will be less than 20".
When collecting data like this, a starting point for the measurement needs to be as similar as possible from plant to plant in order to obtain useful data.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Many people measure P-stems differently and there does not seem to be a standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

Well, it is true that many people do it differently, but there is a standard used by scientists who study bananas:

"Recorded from the base of pseudostem to emerging point of the peduncle"

Find in MUSALIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

Normally pseudostem height is only recorded for mature banana plants -- plants with bunches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

Mark where does corm end and the base of pseudostem begin.
The low point is the one that causes the most confusion, so it would be nice if you could be clear about where the base of the P-stem begins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

It's where the leaf sheaths attach to the corm.

It may be true that some scientist thought this would be a good standard but it's impractical.
I highly doubt that they used this in the field and almost positive they could not persuade a farmer to adopt it's use.
It may be useful in a postharvest examination, but never for mature banana plants with fruit.
When planting a sucker you can clearly see that the leaf sheaths begin at the very bottom of the pup.
Besides a scientist, who else would consider excavating a plant with fruit to take a measurement.
It's just not practical in the real world.

venturabananas · 10-14-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

It may be true that some scientist thought this would be a good standard but it's impractical.
I highly doubt that they used this in the field and almost positive they could not persuade a farmer to adopt it's use.
It may be useful in a postharvest examination, but never for mature banana plants with fruit.
When planting a sucker you can clearly see that the leaf sheaths begin at the very bottom of the pup.
Besides a scientist, who else would consider excavating a plant with fruit to take a measurement.
It's just not practical in the real world.

Keith, I think you are making this unnecessarily complicated. Look at the diagram from Gabe. P-stem height is measured from the top of the corm. I assume if you can't see the corm (e.g., because you planted deep), it is measured from the soil up. After a pup has matured into an adult plant, its leaves are not growing from very far underground. Scientists are not digging up the plants to make these measurements -- like you say, it isn't practical.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Circumference of banana plants is usually measured at 1 meter above the soil. I just measured 6 different varieties (mature plants) in my yard. If I measured 6 inches below or 6 inches above 1 m high, the biggest difference in circumference was no more than 2", and usually more like 1". So, I'd conclude that misjudging where the corm is by a few inches is going to have very little effect on your measurement of circumference.

PR-Giants · 10-14-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venturabananas

Keith, I think you are making this unnecessarily complicated. Look at the diagram from Gabe. P-stem height is measured from the top of the corm. I assume if you can't see the corm (e.g., because you planted deep), it is measured from the soil up. After a pup has matured into an adult plant, its leaves are not growing from very far underground. Scientists are not digging up the plants to make these measurements -- like you say, it isn't practical

Circumference of banana plants is usually measured at 1 meter above the soil. I just measured 6 different varieties (mature plants) in my yard. If I measured 6 inches below or 6 inches above 1 m high, the biggest difference in circumference was no more than 2", and usually more like 1". So, I'd conclude that misjudging where the corm is by a few inches is going to have very little effect on your measurement of circumference.

Mark, this is very simply and maybe photos will be more helpful to visualize it, as you can clearly see the leave sheaths start at the base of the pup.
I do not use the leaf sheath method to determine the top of the corm.
[IMG]

[/IMG]
I have found measuring from the upper row of pups to clearly give the most accurate data. I agree that having large errors in data is more acceptable for the backyard hobbyist, but this is a very important measurement that most hobbyist don't even track.

It is nice to hear that in Calf. the circumference of banana plants is usually measured at 1 meter. From what I've seen here, people in the Mainland tend to measure C or width at ground level. Not a good idea.

African Rhino Horns have rows of pups circling the corm, even thought the leave sheaths are well below this point, it would be foolish to corrupt your data by using that point. The position of these rows are very standard from plant to plant.

[IMG]

[/IMG]

[IMG]

[/IMG]

The Bottom Line for anyone reading this is that tracking the C at any consistent height will be a better indicator of yield and health than tracking the height of the pseudostem.

venturabananas · 10-14-2012, 11:07 PM

I understand what you're saying. For banana descriptors by scientists, height and circumference is not normally measured on anything other than mature plants, so the fact that the leaf sheath is near the bottom on a pup isn't really relevant to what is usually measured. Pups come off the corm, so the top of the corm of the mature plant has to be above or at where the pups attach to it. Measuring the mature plant from the top of the pups is fine in ARH. In Pisang Klotek, for example, if you used the same technique, you would be measuring underground, near the base of the corm because they come off near the bottom of the corm in some cases.

There are no banana scientists in California, more or less. The measuring of banana plant circumference at 1-m high is the international standard for describing banana plant morphology. See the "Descriptors for Banana" document that I posted before.

venturabananas · 10-18-2012, 08:51 PM

After consultation with Gabe, here's what I understand:

There's no variable called "time for fruit to fill" that is typically recorded, but two variables that are typically recorded, "time to shoot" and "time from planting to harvest" can be used to calculate time to fill. Just subtract "time to shoot" from "time from planting to harvest". Obviously, this wouldn't work for pups left on the main mat (because you didn't plant them), but you would get the same thing by recording date at which that pup "shoots" an inflorescence and date at which its fruit are harvested.

"Shooting" is defined as when the first bract on the inflorescence has fully emerged from the p-stem. For comparative purposes with other folks, "date of harvest" should be really be recorded when the first fruits start to ripen (i.e., change color) on the bunch, while it is still hanging on the plant. I think that most commercial growers harvest well before that point, but the problem with that is it is difficult to compare time to harvest if one person harvests at, say, 75% maximum mature diameter and another grower harvests and 90% maximum diameter, or something like that.

The international standards for these sorts of things are all in "Descriptors for Banana", which can be downloaded from the following website:

http://cropgenebank.sgrp.cgiar.org/i...3&lang=english

Nicolas Naranja · 10-18-2012, 10:18 PM

From USDA in Puerto Rico @ Mayaguez
TARS 17181 - Musa hybr. - African Rhino -

I think that they probably measure from emergence, because several of the varieties that I know on that website do not take as long as they say from bunch opening to harvest.

DAYSFRFILL 95.4

Nicolas Naranja · 10-21-2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

At 82 days from bud emergence some fruit have already increased their sugar content and are no longer good for tostones. At 95 days you will only need ice cream and a cherry for a platano split.

I wouldn't think that the temperatures were much different between mayaguez and humacao but perhaps they are. I know that the difference in rainfall between the two is very pronounced.

Nicolas Naranja · 10-21-2012, 11:04 PM

I hope you are right because I could use another quick cycling variety. Maybe the person entering the data hit the 9 instead of the 6.

venturabananas · 10-21-2012, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

That 95 days must be for fully ripe fruit.

Yes, if they followed the guidelines in "Descriptors of Banana", it would be 95 days until fully ripe. It's too subjective if you don't go to fully ripe. If you didn't do that and you wanted to compare time to ripeness for a red, a Cavendish, and a ARH, how would you do it?

bananimal · 10-22-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Naranja

I hope you are right because I could use another quick cycling variey.

Me too. The super --- DSP --- was good but I'm looking for a better plantain. And short cycle is great.

PR-Giants · 10-29-2012, 01:06 AM

It would be nice if we had this detailed information on other cultivars.

Musa Senorita

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe15

Status of plant: Farmer’s variety

Genome: AA

Local names: Arnibal (Negros Occidental), Monkoy
(Negros Oriental and Mansaka), Señorita
(Laguna), Sarot-sut (Bicol), Cariños
(Abra), Lunsuranon (Surigao)

Purpose: Dessert

Note: Cuarenta dias is a Spanish phrase which
literally translates to “40 days” - the
number of days from flowering to fruiting
for this variety.

Plant general appearance
Leaf habit: Intermediate
Dwarfism: Normal

Pseudostem
Pseudostem height (at maturity): 2.44 m
Pseudostem girth (at 1m): 42.19 cm
Pseudostem colour (external): Medium green
Pseudostem appearance: Shiny
Predominant underlying colour: Pink-purple
Pigmentation of the underlying pseudostem: Pink-purple
Sap colour: Watery
Wax on leaf sheaths: Moderately waxy

Petiole/midrib/leaf
Blotches at petiole base: Large blotches
Blotches colour: Brown
Petiole canal leaf III: Open with margins spreading
Petiole margins: Winged and not clasping pseudostem
Wing type: Dry
Petiole margin colour: Pink-purple to red
Edge of petiole margin: With colour
Petiole margin width: 1.12 cm
Leaf blade length: 213.17 cm
Leaf blade width: 64.00 cm
Leaf ratio: 3.33
Petiole length: 37.08 cm
Colour of leaf upper surface: Green
Appearance of leaf upper surface: Shiny
Colour of leaf lower surface: Medium green
Appearance of leaf lower surface: Dull
Wax on leaves: Very waxy
Insertion point of leaf blades on petiole: Symmetric
Shape of leaf blade base: One side rounded
Leaf corrugation: Very corrugated
Colour of midrib dorsal surface: Yellow
Colour of midrib ventral surface: Yellow

Inflorescence/male bud
Peduncle weight: 1.31 kg
Peduncle length: 45.56 cm
Peduncle width: 5.00 cm
Empty nodes on peduncle: 1
Peduncle colour: Light green
Peduncle hairiness: Very hairy, short hairs
Bunch position: Hanging vertically
Bunch shape: Cylindrical
Bunch appearance: Lax
Rachis type: Present
Rachis position: At an angle
Rachis appearance: Neutral flowers, withered bracts on whole stalk
Male bud type: Normal (present)
Male bud shape: Intermediate

Bract
Bract base shape: Medium shoulder
Bract apex shape: Intermediate
Bract imbrication: Young bracts slightly overlap
Colour of bract external face: Red-purple
Colour of bract internal face: Yellow or green
Colour on the bract apex: Tinted with yellow
Colour stripes on bract: With discoloured lines
Bract scars on rachis: Very prominent
Fading of colour on bract base: Discontinuing
Male bract shape: Intermediate (x/y = 0.29)
Male bract lifting: Lifting two or more
Bract behaviour before falling: Revolute
Wax on the bract: Moderate
Presence of grooves on the bract: Moderate grooving

Male flower
Male flower behaviour: Neutral/male flower persistent
Compound tepal basic colour: Cream
Compound tepal pigmentation: Rust-coloured spots
Lobe colour of compound tepal: Yellow
Lobe development of compound tepal: Developed
Free tepal colour: Translucent white
Free tepal shape: Fan shape
Free tepal appearance: More or less smooth
Free tepal apex development: Developed
Free tepal apex shape: Triangular
Anther exsertion: Inserted
Filament colour: Cream
Anther colour: Pink/Pink-purple
Pollen sac colour: Cream
Style basic colour: Cream
Pigmentation on style: Purple
Style exsertion: Inserted
Style shape: Straight
Stigma colour: Black
Ovary shape: Arched
Ovary basic colour: Brown
Ovary pigmentation: Very few
Dominant colour of male flower: Yellow

Fruits
Planting to flowering: 231 days
Flowering to harvest: 54 days
Planting to harvest: 285 days
Bunch weight: 8.08 kg
Number of hands per bunch: 7
Number of fruits per bunch: 113
Fruit weight: 54.89 g
Fruit length: 85.57 mm
Fruit width: 33.50 mm
Fruit thickness: 33.37 mm
Fruit shape (longitudinal curvature): Straight
Transverse section of fruit: Rounded
Fruit apex: Bottle-necked
Remains of flower relicts at fruit apex: Persistent style
Fruit pedicel length: 20.31 mm
Fruit pedicel width: 7.92 mm
Pedicel surface: Hairless
Fusion of pedicels: Very partially or none
Mature fruit peel colour: Yellow
Fruit peel thickness: 1.34 mm
Fruit peel weight: 13.42 g
Adherence of the fruit peel: Fruit peels easily
Cracks in the fruit peel: Cracked
Flesh weight: 45.10 g
Pulp colour at maturity: Yellow
Fruits fall from hands: Deciduous
Flesh texture: Soft
Edible portion: 82.17%
Predominant taste: Mild to sweet
Pulp TSS: 20.32ºBrix

SOURCE
http://bananas.bioversityinternation...hilippines.pdf

venturabananas · 10-29-2012, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PR-Giants

It would be nice if we had this detailed information on other cultivars.

Gabe got that info from this site:
Welcome to MGIS

Under Accessions, choose Search and enter the variety name you want information on. Some have lots of information, some have little, and some names aren't in the database. Not everything is accurate in this database, but it's the most extensive database of banana cultivars around.

10-14-2012, 11:07 PM	#26 (permalink)
venturabananas venturabananas's Photo Gallery Location: Ventura, CA Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Mark Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,845 BananaBucks : 273,828 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,752 Times Was Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,713 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 39 Times	Re: ARH - Fruit splits on day 64 I understand what you're saying. For banana descriptors by scientists, height and circumference is not normally measured on anything other than mature plants, so the fact that the leaf sheath is near the bottom on a pup isn't really relevant to what is usually measured. Pups come off the corm, so the top of the corm of the mature plant has to be above or at where the pups attach to it. Measuring the mature plant from the top of the pups is fine in ARH. In Pisang Klotek, for example, if you used the same technique, you would be measuring underground, near the base of the corm because they come off near the bottom of the corm in some cases. There are no banana scientists in California, more or less. The measuring of banana plant circumference at 1-m high is the international standard for describing banana plant morphology. See the "Descriptors for Banana" document that I posted before. __________________

10-18-2012, 08:51 PM	#27 (permalink)
venturabananas venturabananas's Photo Gallery Location: Ventura, CA Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Mark Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,845 BananaBucks : 273,828 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 1,752 Times Was Thanked 3,969 Times in 1,713 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 39 Times	Re: ARH - Fruit splits on day 64 After consultation with Gabe, here's what I understand: There's no variable called "time for fruit to fill" that is typically recorded, but two variables that are typically recorded, "time to shoot" and "time from planting to harvest" can be used to calculate time to fill. Just subtract "time to shoot" from "time from planting to harvest". Obviously, this wouldn't work for pups left on the main mat (because you didn't plant them), but you would get the same thing by recording date at which that pup "shoots" an inflorescence and date at which its fruit are harvested. "Shooting" is defined as when the first bract on the inflorescence has fully emerged from the p-stem. For comparative purposes with other folks, "date of harvest" should be really be recorded when the first fruits start to ripen (i.e., change color) on the bunch, while it is still hanging on the plant. I think that most commercial growers harvest well before that point, but the problem with that is it is difficult to compare time to harvest if one person harvests at, say, 75% maximum mature diameter and another grower harvests and 90% maximum diameter, or something like that. The international standards for these sorts of things are all in "Descriptors for Banana", which can be downloaded from the following website: http://cropgenebank.sgrp.cgiar.org/i...3&lang=english __________________ Last edited by venturabananas : 10-19-2012 at 11:54 AM.

10-18-2012, 10:18 PM	#28 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 566,824 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: ARH - Fruit splits on day 64 From USDA in Puerto Rico @ Mayaguez TARS 17181 - Musa hybr. - African Rhino - I think that they probably measure from emergence, because several of the varieties that I know on that website do not take as long as they say from bunch opening to harvest. DAYSFRFILL 95.4 __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

10-21-2012, 11:04 PM	#30 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,217 BananaBucks : 566,824 Feedback: 7 / 100% Said "Thanks" 66 Times Was Thanked 5,665 Times in 1,563 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 7 Times	Re: ARH - Fruit splits on day 64 I hope you are right because I could use another quick cycling variety. Maybe the person entering the data hit the 9 instead of the 6. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains. Last edited by Nicolas Naranja : 10-21-2012 at 11:08 PM.

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