Any bug experts?

blownz281 · 02-07-2012, 07:15 PM

Not a plant issue but a back yard one. Moved into a rental home,family played in the yard. Bug bites all over,so i mess with sand in yard.FLEAS..... Neighbors have 2 dogs an a huge wood pile. We swear thats where they must be coming from. Pest guy sprayed yard,spread pellets. Will issue ever be fixed?

If i order nemotodes an spread them in are yard an theres will that work?

Richard · 02-07-2012, 07:43 PM

Borax powder.

blownz281 · 02-07-2012, 07:50 PM

will it kill eggs? they will never come back?

momoese · 02-07-2012, 07:58 PM

Archer brand IGR, food grade Diatomaceous Earth, or Nematodes.

blownz281 · 02-07-2012, 08:02 PM

if need be could the chems be used in the house?

momoese · 02-07-2012, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blownz281

if need be could the chems be used in the house?

Do you have carpet or tile/hardwood?

blownz281 · 02-07-2012, 08:24 PM

hardwood with spaces. Are these better then pest guy's stuff? kill eggs too?

Richard · 02-07-2012, 08:30 PM

Borax powder is considered organic and has none of the toxicity issues associated with diatomaceous earth (banned as a pesticide in California). Use it outdoors and indoors. A common treatment for fleas in carpets is to dust with borax powder and use a push broom to work it in, then vacuum the next day. For spot treatment apply along edges. For ants indoors, squirt some in each corner of kitchen cabinets and clothing/textile drawers and closets; plus take the covers off light switches, electric outlets, etc. and squirt some in the wall. I do it yearly.

momoese · 02-07-2012, 09:49 PM

Like Richard said Borax will kill the pests, but not the eggs.

What toxicity issues other than breathing it does DE have? It's what Linder Bison feeds their animals for parasite control. It's only downside that I'm aware of is breathing the dust in large quantities. Borax can't be healthy to breath large amounts either right?

I use DE under appliances that I can't or don't want to move. Also in the garden.

I've tried nematodes but didn't have any luck. could have been a bad batch.

blownz281 · 02-07-2012, 09:59 PM

thanks for the help guys.

Nicolas Naranja · 02-07-2012, 10:54 PM

Cover yard in black plastic for 2 weeks in the middle of summer and you will kill everything. Otherwise, the pesticide granules do a very good job in your yard.

Chemically, you are looking for something like lambda or gamma cyhalothrin or possibly bifenthrin. If you weren't renting the home I would suggest something long term like tweeking the soil environment to discourage fleas.

I test pesticides for the University of Florida.

Richard · 02-07-2012, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

Like Richard said Borax will kill the pests, but not the eggs.

Any fleas that hatch are toast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

What toxicity issues other than breathing it does DE have? It's what Linder Bison feeds their animals for parasite control.

They are using food grade DE which is approved in California as a nutritional supplement for ruminant livestock -- to control parasites and provide a source of silica.

It is illegal in California to sell DE either labeled for pesticide use or for the claimed purpose of pesticide use.

Borax powder is sold both as soap with no label for pesticide use, and as a pesticide with a label displaying the EPA registration number.

momoese · 02-08-2012, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

What toxicity issues other than breathing it does DE have? It's only downside that I'm aware of is breathing the dust in large quantities. Borax can't be healthy to breath large amounts either right?

And this part?

Richard · 02-08-2012, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

And this part?

The severity of toxicity in pesticides is categorized by the three signal words "Caution", "Warning", and "Danger".

Borax does not have the dust Danger that is associated with DE.

fmu65 · 02-08-2012, 08:16 AM

Interesting that food grade DE is sold packaged with an OMRI label as insect dust here in Chicago. That's what I have always used and recommended for ants and fleas and such.

blownz281 · 02-08-2012, 10:14 AM

This is great info guys!!!!!!!!! We also read that dumping salt all around the base boards and cracks of the floor. Guy is coming back out to spray the yard tomorrow. We didn't see anything else but its free,so we told him we want it again. I just hope I can caught him before he leaves. I will be getting off work when he is suppose to be there. I just hope we don't have to deal with this again!! Stray cat we chase out of the yard once a while and the neighbors dogs could be a issue..

momoese · 02-08-2012, 11:10 AM

Unless the neighbors deal with the issue on their side you will no doubt see fleas again if you have stray cat dropping eggs in your yard. I'd have a chat with them and see if anything can be done.

From what I can find on the internet Borax is more "toxic" than DE. You can not eat borax. Labeling is now required according to this article.

Quote:

Toxicity

Borax, sodium tetraborate decahydrate, is not acutely toxic.[19] Its LD50 (median lethal dose) score is tested at 2.66 g/kg in rats:[20] a significant dose of the chemical is needed to cause severe symptoms or death. The lethal dose is not necessarily the same for humans.

Sufficient exposure to borax dust can cause respiratory and skin irritation. Ingestion may cause gastrointestinal distress including nausea, persistent vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea. Effects on the vascular system and brain include headaches and lethargy, but are less frequent. "In severe poisonings, a beefy red skin rash affecting palms, soles, buttocks and scrotum has been described. With severe poisoning, erythematous and exfoliative rash, unconsciousness, respiratory depression, and renal failure." [21]

A reassessment of boric acid/borax by the United States Environmental Protection Agency Office of Pesticide Programs found potential developmental toxicity (especially effects on the testes).[22] Boric acid solutions used as an eye wash or on abraded skin are known to be particularly toxic to infants, especially after repeated use, because of the slow elimination rate.[23]

Borax was added to the Substance of Very High Concern (SVHC) candidate list on 16 December 2010. The SVHC candidlate list is part of the EU Regulations on the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals 2006 (REACH), and the addition was based on the revised classification of Borax as toxic for reproduction category 1B under the CLP Regulations. Substances and mixtures imported into the EU which contain Borax are now required to be labelled with the warnings "May damage fertility" and "May damage the unborn child".[24]

A quick search yields lots of safety warnings about Borax.
Enviroblog: Borax: Not the green alternative it's cracked up to be Archives

I have found this page to be very informative about DE
Diatomaceous Earth - Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth Health Benefits

And please to anyone reading this please note that I am talking about Food Grade DE, not the pool filter stuff you'll find at big box stores.

venturabananas · 02-08-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by momoese

Unless the neighbors deal with the issue on their side you will no doubt see fleas again if you have stray cat dropping eggs in your yard. I'd have a chat with them and see if anything can be done.

From what I can find on the internet Borax is more "toxic" than DE. You can not eat borax. Labeling is now required according to this article.

A quick search yields lots of safety warnings about Borax.
Enviroblog: Borax: Not the green alternative it's cracked up to be Archives

I have found this page to be very informative about DE
Diatomaceous Earth - Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth Health Benefits

And please to anyone reading this please note that I am talking about Food Grade DE, not the pool filter stuff you'll find at big box stores.

I'm not a toxicologist, but from my brief scan of Wikipedia (despite claims of some pseudo-experts, actually a very good source of information in most cases), neither borax nor DE are very toxic. I wouldn't be worried about using either in my yard or house (and I have). I would be careful about breathing fine particles of both. Mitchel, don't trust everything you read on the internet (including this

): according to Wikipedia, the efficacy of DE in animal food to combat parasites is questionable, based on scientific studies. If you have pets, be careful about using either in a place where they can breath or eat them. For your plants, be careful about using Borax around them or you'll end up with Boron toxicity from elevated levels of it. In short, there's almost always trade offs: nematodes -- no toxicity but could attack beneficial insects; borax -- boron toxicity; diatomaceous earth -- no chemical toxicity, but potential lung damage to you and your pets.

venturabananas · 02-08-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

diatomaceous earth (banned as a pesticide in California).

Interesting. It is still for sale in the reputable nurseries I go to in California.

sunfish · 02-08-2012, 12:17 PM

Dogs: Diatomaceous earth, Diatomaceous Earth

02-07-2012, 07:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Any bug experts? Not a plant issue but a back yard one. Moved into a rental home,family played in the yard. Bug bites all over,so i mess with sand in yard.FLEAS..... Neighbors have 2 dogs an a huge wood pile. We swear thats where they must be coming from. Pest guy sprayed yard,spread pellets. Will issue ever be fixed? If i order nemotodes an spread them in are yard an theres will that work? __________________

02-07-2012, 07:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Richard Hermitian Operator Richard's Photo Gallery Location: Vista, CA Find me on the map! Zone: numerous Name: Richard Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,914 BananaBucks : 777 Feedback: 8 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,016 Times Was Thanked 5,311 Times in 2,604 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,371 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Borax powder. __________________ PM and Email questions welcome. website: http://www.PlantsThatProduce.com

02-07-2012, 07:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Any bug experts? will it kill eggs? they will never come back? __________________

02-07-2012, 07:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
momoese Dog Walker momoese's Photo Gallery Location: West Los Angeles CA Find me on the map! Zone: zone 10 Name: Mitchel Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7,245 BananaBucks : 6,686 Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,140 Times Was Thanked 7,261 Times in 2,790 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 612 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Archer brand IGR, food grade Diatomaceous Earth, or Nematodes. __________________ Mitchel

02-07-2012, 08:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Any bug experts? if need be could the chems be used in the house? __________________

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02-07-2012, 08:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Any bug experts? hardwood with spaces. Are these better then pest guy's stuff? kill eggs too? __________________

02-07-2012, 08:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Richard Hermitian Operator Richard's Photo Gallery Location: Vista, CA Find me on the map! Zone: numerous Name: Richard Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 6,914 BananaBucks : 777 Feedback: 8 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,016 Times Was Thanked 5,311 Times in 2,604 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1,371 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Borax powder is considered organic and has none of the toxicity issues associated with diatomaceous earth (banned as a pesticide in California). Use it outdoors and indoors. A common treatment for fleas in carpets is to dust with borax powder and use a push broom to work it in, then vacuum the next day. For spot treatment apply along edges. For ants indoors, squirt some in each corner of kitchen cabinets and clothing/textile drawers and closets; plus take the covers off light switches, electric outlets, etc. and squirt some in the wall. I do it yearly. __________________ PM and Email questions welcome. website: http://www.PlantsThatProduce.com

02-07-2012, 09:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
momoese Dog Walker momoese's Photo Gallery Location: West Los Angeles CA Find me on the map! Zone: zone 10 Name: Mitchel Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7,245 BananaBucks : 6,686 Feedback: 9 / 100% Said "Thanks" 3,140 Times Was Thanked 7,261 Times in 2,790 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 612 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Like Richard said Borax will kill the pests, but not the eggs. What toxicity issues other than breathing it does DE have? It's what Linder Bison feeds their animals for parasite control. It's only downside that I'm aware of is breathing the dust in large quantities. Borax can't be healthy to breath large amounts either right? I use DE under appliances that I can't or don't want to move. Also in the garden. I've tried nematodes but didn't have any luck. could have been a bad batch. __________________ Mitchel

02-07-2012, 09:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Any bug experts? thanks for the help guys. __________________

02-07-2012, 10:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
Nicolas Naranja Muck bananas Nicolas Naranja 's Photo Gallery Location: Pahokee, FL Find me on the map! Zone: 10 Name: Nick Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,404 BananaBucks : 27,708 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 33 Times Was Thanked 2,254 Times in 844 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 5 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Cover yard in black plastic for 2 weeks in the middle of summer and you will kill everything. Otherwise, the pesticide granules do a very good job in your yard. Chemically, you are looking for something like lambda or gamma cyhalothrin or possibly bifenthrin. If you weren't renting the home I would suggest something long term like tweeking the soil environment to discourage fleas. I test pesticides for the University of Florida. __________________ Some people go bananas, I went plantains.

02-08-2012, 08:16 AM	#15 (permalink)
fmu65 fmu65's Photo Gallery Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 80 BananaBucks : 3,387 Feedback: 0 / 0% Said "Thanks" 99 Times Was Thanked 48 Times in 24 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 14 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Interesting that food grade DE is sold packaged with an OMRI label as insect dust here in Chicago. That's what I have always used and recommended for ants and fleas and such. Last edited by fmu65 : 02-08-2012 at 08:20 AM.

02-08-2012, 10:14 AM	#16 (permalink)
blownz281 Pufferfish Location: Wilmington NC Find me on the map! Zone: 8b Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 782 BananaBucks : 37,397 Feedback: 4 / 100% Said "Thanks" 171 Times Was Thanked 340 Times in 242 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times	Re: Any bug experts? This is great info guys!!!!!!!!! We also read that dumping salt all around the base boards and cracks of the floor. Guy is coming back out to spray the yard tomorrow. We didn't see anything else but its free,so we told him we want it again. I just hope I can caught him before he leaves. I will be getting off work when he is suppose to be there. I just hope we don't have to deal with this again!! Stray cat we chase out of the yard once a while and the neighbors dogs could be a issue.. __________________

02-08-2012, 12:17 PM	#20 (permalink)
sunfish sunfish's Photo Gallery Location: San Diego Find me on the map! Zone: 9-11 Name: Tony Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,548 BananaBucks : 29 Feedback: 8 / 100% Said "Thanks" 2,967 Times Was Thanked 16,721 Times in 6,269 Posts Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,017 Times	Re: Any bug experts? Dogs: Diatomaceous earth, Diatomaceous Earth __________________ Tony,Thanks

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