G.W.

that sucks

but it IS the current state of the banana industry (and most other crops)

it's not that farmers like chemicals, but they hate losing a crop/their land/business/house/social standing/wife need I go on?
if you were in a footrace and your neck was the prize you'd be pouring it on too
survival instinct is strong

plus lots of farmers are only slightly smarter than their livestock




good luck and be sure too come back and see us
or you could hang out and learn to get a headstart on your farming skills

__________________
winter winners, jackfruit, carambola, hua moa, d namwah, hak ip lychee with pink leaves 2 days before a cold snap eeeek!

Winter losers, kohala longan, misi luki, 80% jackfruit seedling loss

first bloomers, HUA MOA, DC, D NAMWAH, FHIA 17, KANADARIAN, RAJA PURI, M D NAMWAH

best bunch FHIA 17 , undisclosed

WORST BUNCH hua moa, 2 fingers

NigelHaslam

I think I may have kicked a hornet's nest here...

Can't wait to hear from some others.

GW I agree that pesticide and petro-chemical fertilised monocropping is the predominant state of current farming but I believe it's doomed to failure for two obvious reasons..

1/ Petro chemical based fertilizers are increasingly expensive

2/ People are becoming more nutrition aware which is evident from the growing sales of organic produce.

The market is changing, consumers are wising up to the potential danger of accumulative exposure to chemicals and additives in foods.

Cheers

Nigel

G.W.

suck because it can't happen
oh can't.. won't..why mince words NEVER EVER EVER

it''s doomed to success for 3

1/ overpopulated planet

2/ uneducated/refuse to self educate apathetic population

3/ the almighty dollar


urine and feces are starting to come on line around the world but google "Milorganite" and read all the fuss
I've written a bunch on urine here, including calculating my yearly N production, but there are NO takers.
No interest, LOTS of disinterest, I can't remember a single positive comment here or ANYWHERE EVER in reference to urine as fertilizer. (from people I've talked toabout it)

All day long people post about "Where to buy fertilizer" and pay XXX the value of the actual chemicals involved, plus shipping.

Pee in a jug ? SACRILEGE!!!!
You had better flush that down thee toilet or you'll go blind !!!
real religious type of fervor on this subject from both sides

pesticides are worse yet
many of the people who are against them couldn't grow a pole bean if you gave it to them in a 3gal
they have no idea how store produce is grown, yet they eat it, WHILE protesting my suggestion to use THE SAME CHEMICAL ON THE SAME CROP FOR THE SAME PEST
"You're eating it right now" I tell them, and then we play this game where they insist "No I'm not!" and here we go....



rant off

__________________
winter winners, jackfruit, carambola, hua moa, d namwah, hak ip lychee with pink leaves 2 days before a cold snap eeeek!

Winter losers, kohala longan, misi luki, 80% jackfruit seedling loss

first bloomers, HUA MOA, DC, D NAMWAH, FHIA 17, KANADARIAN, RAJA PURI, M D NAMWAH

best bunch FHIA 17 , undisclosed

WORST BUNCH hua moa, 2 fingers

ImperialExotics

Unfortunately, there really isn't solid evidence that organic actually IS any better or friendlier to the environment.

Contrary to what most people believe, "organic" does not automatically mean "pesticide-free" or "chemical-free". In fact, under the laws of most states, organic farmers are allowed to use a wide variety of chemical sprays and powders on their crops.

So what does organic mean? It means that these pesticides, if used, must be derived from natural sources, not synthetically manufactured. Also, these pesticides must be applied using equipment that has not been used to apply any synthetic materials for the past three years, and the land being planted cannot have been treated with synthetic materials for that period either.

Most organic farmers (and even some conventional farmers, too) employ mechanical and cultural tools to help control pests. These include insect traps, careful crop selection (there are a growing number of disease-resistant varieties), and biological controls (such as predator insects and beneficial microorganisms).

Further, comparisons between the synthetic pesticides and organic pesticides have some eye opening facts. Unfortunately, these non-chemical methods do not always provide enough protection, and it's necessary to use chemical pesticides. How do organic pesticides compare with conventional pesticides?

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.

When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.

Unfortunately, at this point in time it seems based on known facts, that the organic buzz is more placebo than reality, pending further study on the effects of the types of toxins that are used in organic farming, and the need to use such large volumes compared to 'synthetic' pesticides.

Add to that, organic is already very expensive to buy, costing substantially more than it's non organic brothers. Trying to scale that into mass production where organic pesticides need 3+ times as much application as synthetic pesticides will drive prices of organic foods out of the reach of the poor who are already struggling to eat.

That is great to champion the buy organic banner, but it isn't practical to feed the masses of hungry people on this planet. It's a great concept in theory, but it currently only works on a farmers market, low production level.

It's just too expensive to be practical.

venturabananas

Excellent points Imperial. People have this impression that "organic" = good; and synthetic = bad. Some of the most toxic chemicals known to man are organic. Rotenone is used to kill fish in my line of work. You do NOT want to inhale this stuff. Educate yourself and decide which organics and which synthetics are least toxic and pose the least threat to your health and that of the environment. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as the organic product is always better. If you can farm commerically without using any chemicals, organic or otherwise, then my hat is off to you.

__________________

ImperialExotics

FYI, I use a pesticide that is based on peppermint oil and other components that are safe to use around pets and people.

Kinda cool as the stuff melts bugs on contact.

Peppermint oil is very 'strong'.

ImperialExotics

FYI, I once saw what had to have been one of the funniest taste tests EVER.

Basically it was organic vs. regular farmed bananas..........


what they did was to cut one regular grown banana in half, put it on two plates and mark one regular, and one organic.

then gauge the reactions of people taste testing.

So one woman takes a bite of the 'regular' banana, and spends the next 5 minutes complaining about what was wrong with it.

The tries the supposed 'organic' banana, and goes on abuot how much creamier and tastier the organic banana was compared to the 'regular' banana, how it was so noticeably different etc.

And she was eating the exact same banana in both tests.

Absolute comedy gold.

momoese

Soil.

G.W.

red volcanic


Rotenone bad for fish?
Good for fishING !!!!

Try putting a net across a stream then pouring some Rotenone 1/2 mile or more upstream. (mix it with water in a bucket first)
Just be sure to get back to the net before it gets swamped with fish and torn loose!!

ORGANICALLY HARVESTED FISH


Nigel
I don't mean to be bashing your hopes for a better planet mate.
I want a better planet too.

BUT (here it comes)

"ORGANIC" seems to be a codeword for "I'm about to give you a lecture about how you (and everyone except me) are ruining the planet"


"ORGANIC" people buy insecticidal soap for $4 a liter at Walmart and when you suggest that they make their own for free with dish soap and water they protest because it wouldn't be "ORGANIC"

Any suggestion you make has to go through the "ORGANIC" filter where it's automatically BAD unless you can prove it's "ORGANIC".
Which of course is like having a debate with a 3yo about how many decimal places should be included when writing PI.

"When a man won't agree that 2+2=4, then there is no point debating him because the facts don't matter."

I will now cease to be off topic.


How is the outlook on the subtropical coffee people?

__________________
winter winners, jackfruit, carambola, hua moa, d namwah, hak ip lychee with pink leaves 2 days before a cold snap eeeek!

Winter losers, kohala longan, misi luki, 80% jackfruit seedling loss

first bloomers, HUA MOA, DC, D NAMWAH, FHIA 17, KANADARIAN, RAJA PURI, M D NAMWAH

best bunch FHIA 17 , undisclosed

WORST BUNCH hua moa, 2 fingers

momoese

Nowhere in this thread has stewardship of the soil been mentioned as a benefit of growing organic crops.

PR-Giants

I have found this thread very interesting and thanks to everyone for their input.

I decided only to use glyphosate salt on my farm, but I use it only once when planting in a new area. It is very difficult to clear a slope with 10'-15' tall grass and the glyphosate is simply to efficient at this task. I do not use any pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. I give my plants two options, make due or die. I plant several different varieties to see which copes the best, if none are successful I move on to a different plant.

I see bananas with large bunches growing in the wild everday without any human intervention. In Puerto Rico the weevil is by far the most devastating pest and I find weevils in areas that have never been planted before. We also have just about every known leaf disease throughout the island.

This is what has led me to grow ARH. I regularly use weevil infested planting material because it will get weevils at some point anyway. Weevils and leaf diseases do affect fruit filling, but with ARH the fruit will almost always be well above Grade A standards. My best guess is that every bunch photo I've ever posted was grown with weevils and BLS.

I don't know if my soil would even be considered soil, but it works for me and it continually improves.
I break it into smaller pieces with a 16 lb sledge and then add grass clippings and wood chips

[IMG][/IMG]



I have never tried to market my Horns as "Organic". and feel I don't need the crutch.

This has worked successfully for 15 years, but this is by no means a statement saying it will be successful tomorrow.

I don't want to jinx myself.

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PR-Giants

Best of LUCK Nigel, in whichever direction you choose.

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momoese

I pee in my garden from time to time. Nothing wrong with it.

PR-Giants

I hate to see the free Nitrogen being wasted and I pee anywhere on my farm, but would never want a tanker load of the stuff.
My only concern has been with the salt content, but in moderation I think it's great

What is in urine?

Gee Whiz: Human Urine Is Shown to Be an Effective Agricultural Fertilizer: Scientific American

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Narnia

Has anyone got a list of affordable natural l fertilisers ?

NigelHaslam

Wow, thanks again everyone.. This is fantastic.. I'm learning so much.

I've long wondered about the safety and efficacy of using poo, oops 'biosoil' and, not being squeamish, agree wholeheartedly with G.W. that we should çlose the loop and stop flushing good fertilizer down the drain with gallons of highly purified, albeit chlorinated and fluoridated, water.

Imperial Exotics you have nailed a universal truth there.. just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good for you.. who would use raw uranium or plutonium to combat their weeds?

Lacking even the most basic chemistry, I find myself at a loss and rather put off by anything that has a distinctly chemical name.

Who would willingly add Sodium Chloride to their food but 'Salt' is fine.

Lots of westerners are put off by the idea of Monosodium Glutamate in Chinese cooking but the English translation of the chinese word for MSG is "Tasty".

I wonder if there isn't a reliable ie. not supported by Monsanto, online resource to demystify the various pesticidal substances, so we can make informed decisions on what to use?

Any ideas?

Nigel Haslam

PS. My recent research is pointing at Bamboo as a good potential crop for this region of Australia. It's becoming fashionable as a building material and it's strength and sustainability factors are very high. It sequesters 7 times the carbon as a rainforest tree.

NigelHaslam

Here's what I've just started experimenting with..

A Better Way to Fertilize Your Garden: Homemade Organic Fertilizer - Organic Gardening - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

I used coprameal in place of seedmeal because I figured coconut trees are very hardy and therefore the plantations wouldn't be hit with so much pesticide.

It works out pretty cheap.. almost all of the 25 KG bags (just over 50 lbs), cost about $25 bucks but, apart from the copra meal, one only uses a tiny fraction of the other ingredients. The most expensive ingredient is kelp meal.. but I can't remember of the top of my head how much it costs.

I've only just applied this to my garden so I've yet to see the results.

Cheers

Nigel

G.W.

Sometimes my posts read like I'm angry, but I'd like you folks to superimpose a sarcastic comedian's tone, if you would be so kind.

I left out the part about the insecticidal soap lady in Walmart who, after being told she could make it with bath soap and water, asked, I kid you not... "Would it be ORGANIC?"

I dang near had a stroke right there.
Bath soap you know.





can you be more specific than demistify ?
there is several weeks worth of reading available on most things including fate in soil/water/animals


municipal leaf waste has been researched as a large scale soil amendment for farmers
it was found to have elevated levels of heavy metals, but nothing drastic
I added 10 tonnes of yard leaf waste last year

there are some good N fixing plants like sunshine hemp, that's a good safe way to go

tree services sometimes haul their cuttings to the dump and pay to dispose
they are happy to find someone who lets them dump for free
I added 10 cubic yards of ground oak and pine last year

road crews often clean/enlarge/deepen roadside ditches
these ditches sometimes collect sediment, depending in the type of runoff the material removed can be quite rich (and quite free)

cabinetry or door manufacturers produce very fine millings of natural wood of MDFB
a local one uses urea formaldehyde as the glue in their wood so all the dust I get from there has 2%N SUUUUUUPER slow release
this stuff is more economical than regular sawdust because it's fine as flour and so has a similar density
around 40kg per bag and a pickup will fit 500kg pretty well
I was recently invited to have all I wanted but settled for hauling home around 3 tonnes LOL

PR Giants IIRC the Cl content of urine is 2%
muriate of potash is around 40%
you be lucky to get a tanker full


I just applied 25 gallons of 2 month old yesterday in expectation of 5 inches of rain this week. One gallon per plant at the base of the pstem, and water it in with a gallon or so from the hose because the ammonia content is high.

I have 8 flowers this year and I only started growing bananas July of last year.

__________________
winter winners, jackfruit, carambola, hua moa, d namwah, hak ip lychee with pink leaves 2 days before a cold snap eeeek!

Winter losers, kohala longan, misi luki, 80% jackfruit seedling loss

first bloomers, HUA MOA, DC, D NAMWAH, FHIA 17, KANADARIAN, RAJA PURI, M D NAMWAH

best bunch FHIA 17 , undisclosed

WORST BUNCH hua moa, 2 fingers

NigelHaslam

I guess I'd like a primer on the differences between synthetic chemicals used in agriculture and the natural ie. those considered as organic.

Not a deep biological analysis but an overview for the layman, covering the different pesticides, their uses, applications, how they achieve their goal and any associated caveats, dangers etc. Similar to Imperial Exotics illuminating writings above but more comprehensive.

Also I'm interested in the practical issues with bio waste re-use, how to deal with the pathogens and render it useful and safe for fertilizing edible crops.

Stuff like this:-

Aussie scientist calls for human urine fertiliser - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

PR-Giants

I understand the point you are trying to make GW. In order use urine on a crop that is not salt tolerant, you first need a soil that drains well and my soil does not, so in my case a tanker load would be disastrous. In moderation it will work fine.

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