Welcome to the Bananas.org forums. You're currently viewing our message boards as a guest which gives you limited access to participate in discussions and access our other features such as our wiki and photo gallery. By joining our community, you'll have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast and simple, so please join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. |
|
Register | Photo Gallery | Classifieds | Wiki | Chat | Map | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
Species Bananas Discussions of all the different wild species of banana (non edible), an aspect of the hobby that deserves its own section. |
Members currently in the chatroom: 0 | |
The most chatters online in one day was 17, 09-06-2009. No one is currently using the chat. |
Email this Page |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools |
10-07-2012, 04:58 PM | #1 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Weird hybrid
The more I read about hybridization,the more I'm intrigued.There's a few questions I'd like to ask.First,I noticed that genus of canna plants are in the same order as musaceae.What are the chances of hybridization between plants in the same order? I was wondering would hybridization of canna and musa plant be possible? My goal would be to get a hybrid that gives fruit in a very short time,and possibly even be grown as an annual in cold climates.Also,can you store pollen taken from plants,and for how long? Sorry if I'm asking too much.
|
Said thanks: |
Sponsors |
10-07-2012, 05:01 PM | #2 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: San Diego
Zone: 9-11
Name: Tony
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 18,429
BananaBucks
: 938,216
Feedback: 8 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 3,210 Times
Was
Thanked 20,591 Times in 7,760 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,716 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
|
|
Said thanks: |
10-07-2012, 05:22 PM | #3 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Sunfish,this was the fastest reply ever! Thank you for great link.So,pollen can be stored after all.Could you post a reply that showes chances of hybridization between order/family/genus/species? Thanks again
|
Said thanks: |
10-08-2012, 12:44 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Moderator
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Zone: 12
Name: Gabe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,892
BananaBucks
: 13,338,249
Feedback: 5 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 1 Times
Was
Thanked 8,237 Times in 2,200 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
The chances of a successful hybrid are extremely low, basically impossible. I don't want to say it's outright impossible because, well, anything's possible I suppose, but this is exceedingly unlikely to occur. However, there are efforts to breed quick cycling bananas using Musa plants with those traits. Hybrids between genera in a family are possible in some cases, but not between families.
__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties. |
Said thanks: |
10-08-2012, 08:05 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Hmm,so the farthest you can go is same genera.By the way,what musa variety gives fruit within the shortest time?
|
Sponsors |
10-08-2012, 11:45 AM | #6 (permalink) | |
Moderator
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Zone: 12
Name: Gabe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,892
BananaBucks
: 13,338,249
Feedback: 5 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 1 Times
Was
Thanked 8,237 Times in 2,200 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
The Rhodochlamys bananas usually are the quickest, some common species are: Musa velutina, Musa laterita, Musa ornata, Musa siamensis and Musa mannii (though there are others). They can flower and set seed in as little as 4-6 months.
__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties. |
|
Said thanks: |
10-08-2012, 01:53 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
It says on wiki that musa velutina can fruit within just one year.The fruit has many seeds,but it's edible.I wonder if I could find this variety here where I live...
Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could enjoy their own-grown yummy nanas,even if they live in cold areas? An awesome hybrid that would quickly grow very short height,and then flower and set fruit in just one summer? It would be an ordinary fruit,that would be cultivated just as some other common foods,like tomatos or potatos.Bananas are my favorite fruit! Plus,I don't know any other fruit that has such a high energy value.That's why I will create a new awesome variety,you just wait and see! |
10-09-2012, 10:39 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 422
BananaBucks
: 19,047
Feedback: 1 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 29 Times
Was
Thanked 438 Times in 234 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
In my climate velutina and ornata can bloom and fruit after emerging in spring. I haven't gotten ornata to ripen for me yet, but velutina has and you can eat it but it is 90% seed. The best way is to put the fruit in your mouth, mash it with your tongue, and swish it around. It is fun to try for the heck of it, but after doing it once you usually never bother to try it again unless you are just trying to get seeds to plant.
|
10-25-2012, 08:10 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
I think I've got it.First thing I need to do is get velutina,which is obviosly quite a task here...uhh...But what i meant to do is apply a colchicine chemical on a growing pup.That should result in me having a polyploid velutina...then I would need to wait until it flowers,and in the same time have another flowering velutina with norlmal 2n chromozomes.Then I cross-polinate those two plants to get the seeds from witch an seedless musa velutina(that's 3n if I'm not wrong) would grow.Can someone give some more insight on this?
|
10-26-2012, 02:15 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Moderator
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Zone: 12
Name: Gabe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,892
BananaBucks
: 13,338,249
Feedback: 5 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 1 Times
Was
Thanked 8,237 Times in 2,200 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
Applying colchicine to a growing pup will almost certainly not result in a tetraploid. The colchicine must be applied thoroughly to the meristem, which in bananas is hidden inside at the base of the pseudostem. Therefore, to create tetraploid bananas the procedure must be done in vitro with small explants. Also it must be replicated many times and the resulting plants checked for ploidy (normally done by flow cytometry) as it is quite easy to only partially convert the tissue and end up with mixoploids. After that however, crossing a 4n and a 2n of the same wild plant may end up with a triploid plant, but will not produce edible fruit. You would just have a potentially sterile plant that would not develop it's fruit at all. This is because in bananas seedless/edible fruit is the result of vegetative parthenocarpy and is quite unrelated at all to ploidy. The parthenocarpy is controlled by 3 genes which must come from an edible banana. So, the wild plants with the desired traits must be crossed with edible bananas. If you were performing this breeding research in the tropics with all of the necessary resources, it is my estimation that it would take at least 7-10 years to come up with something close to what you are looking for.
__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties. |
|
10-26-2012, 03:13 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
Happy Growing Location: Beaumont Texas
Zone: 8b, but 9b weather..
Name: Migael / Michael
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 9,492
BananaBucks
: 194,325
Feedback: 45 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 10,447 Times
Was
Thanked 16,440 Times in 5,237 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2,318 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
|
|
10-26-2012, 05:34 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
|
|
11-01-2012, 02:20 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Location: Russia, Moscow
Name: Romul
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 64
BananaBucks
: 7,233
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 17 Times
Was
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 100 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Бабуин, ты не поверишь, но я одержим этой же идеей, и уже посеял заказанные семена musa velutina и musa ornata : Nanadrink:
|
11-01-2012, 02:54 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Zone: 6 1/2
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 137
BananaBucks
: 24,565
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 302 Times
Was
Thanked 139 Times in 70 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 99 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
John, you will not believe, but I'm obsessed with this idea, and had already sowed seeds ordered musa velutina and musa ornata: Nanadrink: |
|
Said thanks: |
11-01-2012, 04:24 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Location: Belgrade,Serbia,Europe
Zone: 6
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
BananaBucks
: 13,400
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 0 Times
Was
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Romul man,thank you.I was hoping someone with more resources avaliable to start the experiment.If you are trully devoted to this please keep us updated on the progress.SHOW TIME
|
11-02-2012, 12:40 AM | #16 (permalink) |
Location: Russia, Moscow
Name: Romul
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 64
BananaBucks
: 7,233
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 17 Times
Was
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 100 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Ок. Конечно, на это уйдет не один один год, но я никуда не тороплюсь. К тому же достать пыльцу банана в Москве не так просто.
|
Sponsors |
11-02-2012, 02:43 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Zone: 6 1/2
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 137
BananaBucks
: 24,565
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 302 Times
Was
Thanked 139 Times in 70 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 99 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
Ok. Of course, it will take not one year but I never rush. Besides getting a banana pollen in Moscow is not so simple. |
|
11-10-2012, 12:13 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Member
Location: Lucianópolis-BRAZIL
Zone: 10
Name: 01
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 926
BananaBucks
: 186,349
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 138 Times
Was
Thanked 266 Times in 123 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Hi,
there is also one cross here in Brazil, Helton and I do have this. This is Musa ornata x velutina, named Musa "Anestor". One friend of Helton, Anestor, has found this cross on his yard. As I visited Helton on Oct. 22nd, I tasted some fruits of Musa ornata. They are edible and do tast very sweet when fully ripen. Musa velutina and Musa "Anestor" also have edible fruits. But the fruits are full of seeds, this is one goal to get the seeds off from the fruits and get one variety with seedless fruits like fruit bananas. Best wishes Basjoofriend |
11-11-2012, 12:25 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Location: Russia, Moscow
Name: Romul
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 64
BananaBucks
: 7,233
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 17 Times
Was
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 100 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
Basjoofriend, удачи! |
|
09-18-2013, 07:53 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 169
BananaBucks
: 28,521
Feedback: 1 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 79 Times
Was
Thanked 221 Times in 110 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 11 Times
|
Re: Weird hybrid
Quote:
Here's what I can suggest. I know from experience that the ABB Orinoco group can produce 2x AB pollen. The A genome, almost by default, carries the p1, p2 & p3 genes thought responsible for parthenocarpy in banana. Using allotriploid cultivars as pollen donors is, in my experience, the best way to go about banana breeding on a low budget. So you can try to pollinate velutina with Orinoco. Velutina makes nice fat pulpy fruit; unlike ornata and laterita. Velutina X balbisiana hybrids do exist - another plus. It is my observation that the triploids produced when Orinoco pollinates Musa acuminata malaccensis are often parthenocarpic. I believe that it is more useful to get triploid F1s than diploid or tetraploid. Triploids force recombinations among chromosomes of different species far better than allotetraploids or allodiploids. You can then backcross to velutina using whatever pollen you can scrounge from your triploid F1s; hoping for more triploids with recombinant chromosomes in the offspring; and selecting for parthenocarpy and cool-tolerance. You can iterate this process indefinitely. To do this well you'd need at least half acre of field space - and much more if you don't ruthlessly cull. After you've fixed a few lines of reasonably dwarf, annual cycling parthenocarps; you might try to see if you can get segregates from their selfed progeny. Normal banana breeding doesn't work like this; there aren't really enough progeny, and the genetic base is often too narrow to look for segregates as a practical approach. Problem is though, it's really hard to breed a long cycling tropical crop like this in a greenhouse. You need an open field in a tropical environment. You have a chance, as you're not breeding a "commercial" banana; but an edible curiousity for backyard horticulturists. This is one step above breeding florists' bananas by hybridisation. I understand the allure of getting a nice annual banana that you can put into the ground in spring and munch on later in the summer! shannon shannon.di.corse@gmail.com |
|
Sponsors |
Email this Page |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Weird banana comment in the news! | harveyc | Tiki Hut | 1 | 07-24-2009 11:57 AM |
Weird Goldfinger | rich985 | Main Banana Discussion | 9 | 07-16-2009 01:44 PM |
Weird leaves | SteveW | Main Banana Discussion | 3 | 02-28-2008 01:45 AM |
weird hybrids | Lodewijkp | Main Banana Discussion | 1 | 02-18-2008 09:35 AM |
is this weird or what? | mskitty38583 | Main Banana Discussion | 7 | 12-05-2007 05:42 PM |