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Species Bananas Discussions of all the different wild species of banana (non edible), an aspect of the hobby that deserves its own section.


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Old 10-07-2012, 04:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Weird hybrid

The more I read about hybridization,the more I'm intrigued.There's a few questions I'd like to ask.First,I noticed that genus of canna plants are in the same order as musaceae.What are the chances of hybridization between plants in the same order? I was wondering would hybridization of canna and musa plant be possible? My goal would be to get a hybrid that gives fruit in a very short time,and possibly even be grown as an annual in cold climates.Also,can you store pollen taken from plants,and for how long? Sorry if I'm asking too much.
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

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The more I read about hybridization,the more I'm intrigued.There's a few questions I'd like to ask.First,I noticed that genus of canna plants are in the same order as musaceae.What are the chances of hybridization between plants in the same order? I was wondering would hybridization of canna and musa plant be possible? My goal would be to get a hybrid that gives fruit in a very short time,and possibly even be grown as an annual in cold climates.Also,can you store pollen taken from plants,and for how long? Sorry if I'm asking too much.
In vitro Germination and Pollen Conservation of Some Musa Species
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Old 10-07-2012, 05:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

Sunfish,this was the fastest reply ever! Thank you for great link.So,pollen can be stored after all.Could you post a reply that showes chances of hybridization between order/family/genus/species? Thanks again
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

The chances of a successful hybrid are extremely low, basically impossible. I don't want to say it's outright impossible because, well, anything's possible I suppose, but this is exceedingly unlikely to occur. However, there are efforts to breed quick cycling bananas using Musa plants with those traits. Hybrids between genera in a family are possible in some cases, but not between families.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

Hmm,so the farthest you can go is same genera.By the way,what musa variety gives fruit within the shortest time?
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

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Hmm,so the farthest you can go is same genera.By the way,what musa variety gives fruit within the shortest time?
It is case by case, sometimes you cannot even cross some species within the same genera. For banana, I believe it to be highly unlikely that a Musa could cross with any other genera in the family (Ensete and Musella), and even within Musa it is more or less known which species can breed with eachother.

The Rhodochlamys bananas usually are the quickest, some common species are: Musa velutina, Musa laterita, Musa ornata, Musa siamensis and Musa mannii (though there are others). They can flower and set seed in as little as 4-6 months.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

It says on wiki that musa velutina can fruit within just one year.The fruit has many seeds,but it's edible.I wonder if I could find this variety here where I live...
Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could enjoy their own-grown yummy nanas,even if they live in cold areas? An awesome hybrid that would quickly grow very short height,and then flower and set fruit in just one summer? It would be an ordinary fruit,that would be cultivated just as some other common foods,like tomatos or potatos.Bananas are my favorite fruit! Plus,I don't know any other fruit that has such a high energy value.That's why I will create a new awesome variety,you just wait and see!

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Old 10-09-2012, 10:39 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

In my climate velutina and ornata can bloom and fruit after emerging in spring. I haven't gotten ornata to ripen for me yet, but velutina has and you can eat it but it is 90% seed. The best way is to put the fruit in your mouth, mash it with your tongue, and swish it around. It is fun to try for the heck of it, but after doing it once you usually never bother to try it again unless you are just trying to get seeds to plant.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

I think I've got it.First thing I need to do is get velutina,which is obviosly quite a task here...uhh...But what i meant to do is apply a colchicine chemical on a growing pup.That should result in me having a polyploid velutina...then I would need to wait until it flowers,and in the same time have another flowering velutina with norlmal 2n chromozomes.Then I cross-polinate those two plants to get the seeds from witch an seedless musa velutina(that's 3n if I'm not wrong) would grow.Can someone give some more insight on this?
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

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I think I've got it.First thing I need to do is get velutina,which is obviosly quite a task here...uhh...But what i meant to do is apply a colchicine chemical on a growing pup.That should result in me having a polyploid velutina...then I would need to wait until it flowers,and in the same time have another flowering velutina with norlmal 2n chromozomes.Then I cross-polinate those two plants to get the seeds from witch an seedless musa velutina(that's 3n if I'm not wrong) would grow.Can someone give some more insight on this?
This and similar ideas have been discussed at length elsewhere on this site, but I cannot bother to find those discussions right now (you can search for them though), so I will give you some basic answers here.

Applying colchicine to a growing pup will almost certainly not result in a tetraploid. The colchicine must be applied thoroughly to the meristem, which in bananas is hidden inside at the base of the pseudostem. Therefore, to create tetraploid bananas the procedure must be done in vitro with small explants. Also it must be replicated many times and the resulting plants checked for ploidy (normally done by flow cytometry) as it is quite easy to only partially convert the tissue and end up with mixoploids.

After that however, crossing a 4n and a 2n of the same wild plant may end up with a triploid plant, but will not produce edible fruit. You would just have a potentially sterile plant that would not develop it's fruit at all. This is because in bananas seedless/edible fruit is the result of vegetative parthenocarpy and is quite unrelated at all to ploidy. The parthenocarpy is controlled by 3 genes which must come from an edible banana. So, the wild plants with the desired traits must be crossed with edible bananas.

If you were performing this breeding research in the tropics with all of the necessary resources, it is my estimation that it would take at least 7-10 years to come up with something close to what you are looking for.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

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In my climate velutina and ornata can bloom and fruit after emerging in spring. I haven't gotten ornata to ripen for me yet, but velutina has and you can eat it but it is 90% seed. The best way is to put the fruit in your mouth, mash it with your tongue, and swish it around. It is fun to try for the heck of it, but after doing it once you usually never bother to try it again unless you are just trying to get seeds to plant.
Sounds rougher than eating watermelon, then spitting out the seeds like a human machine gun.. lol :^)
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Applying colchicine to a growing pup will almost certainly not result in a tetraploid. The colchicine must be applied thoroughly to the meristem, which in bananas is hidden inside at the base of the pseudostem. Therefore, to create tetraploid bananas the procedure must be done in vitro with small explants. Also it must be replicated many times and the resulting plants checked for ploidy (normally done by flow cytometry) as it is quite easy to only partially convert the tissue and end up with mixoploids.

After that however, crossing a 4n and a 2n of the same wild plant may end up with a triploid plant, but will not produce edible fruit. You would just have a potentially sterile plant that would not develop it's fruit at all. This is because in bananas seedless/edible fruit is the result of vegetative parthenocarpy and is quite unrelated at all to ploidy. The parthenocarpy is controlled by 3 genes which must come from an edible banana. So, the wild plants with the desired traits must be crossed with edible bananas.

If you were performing this breeding research in the tropics with all of the necessary resources, it is my estimation that it would take at least 7-10 years to come up with something close to what you are looking for.
Thank you for an extensive answer.I did know that applying colchicine on a pup is a low-chance try,but what about on germinating seed? That would result in tetraploid plant(?) Well i didn't know that parthenocarpy is caused by some other genes,I thought by simply creating a triploid plant you get seedless fruit.I was wrong...also I guess some banana varieties are not diploid at all,so I must know with what kind of plant I'm messing with as there are natural plants that are dodecaploid,having a sick 12n(!) and yes I know it would take a several years for this,but hey I'm only 19 I got plenty of time,unless I choke myself in atempt to eat seeded bananas or something...anyway thank you again.I sure am full of optimism now,and certanly won't give up easy.I still have a looooooot more to learn.If any of you have any ideas please post them.Just to remind,my goal is to have a banana variety that can give a decent amount of ripe fruit within one growing season in zone 6.I imagine this variety as a very short plant with big leaves and vigorous growth,but not too needy for nutrients and banana bunches would not be huge,but not too small either.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

Бабуин, ты не поверишь, но я одержим этой же идеей, и уже посеял заказанные семена musa velutina и musa ornata : Nanadrink:
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Бабуин, ты не поверишь, но я одержим этой же идеей, и уже посеял заказанные семена musa velutina и musa ornata : Nanadrink:
Using the Bing Translator this says in english:
John, you will not believe, but I'm obsessed with this idea, and had already sowed seeds ordered musa velutina and musa ornata: Nanadrink:
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

Romul man,thank you.I was hoping someone with more resources avaliable to start the experiment.If you are trully devoted to this please keep us updated on the progress.SHOW TIME
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:40 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Romul man,thank you.I was hoping someone with more resources avaliable to start the experiment.If you are trully devoted to this please keep us updated on the progress.SHOW TIME
Ок. Конечно, на это уйдет не один один год, но я никуда не тороплюсь. К тому же достать пыльцу банана в Москве не так просто.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Ок. Конечно, на это уйдет не один один год, но я никуда не тороплюсь. К тому же достать пыльцу банана в Москве не так просто.
Translated woth Bing translator.
Ok. Of course, it will take not one year but I never rush. Besides getting a banana pollen in Moscow is not so simple.
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Old 11-10-2012, 12:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

Hi,

there is also one cross here in Brazil, Helton and I do have this. This is Musa ornata x velutina, named Musa "Anestor". One friend of Helton, Anestor, has found this cross on his yard.

As I visited Helton on Oct. 22nd, I tasted some fruits of Musa ornata. They are edible and do tast very sweet when fully ripen.

Musa velutina and Musa "Anestor" also have edible fruits. But the fruits are full of seeds, this is one goal to get the seeds off from the fruits and get one variety with seedless fruits like fruit bananas.

Best wishes
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Hi,

there is also one cross here in Brazil, Helton and I do have this. This is Musa ornata x velutina, named Musa "Anestor". One friend of Helton, Anestor, has found this cross on his yard.

As I visited Helton on Oct. 22nd, I tasted some fruits of Musa ornata. They are edible and do tast very sweet when fully ripen.

Musa velutina and Musa "Anestor" also have edible fruits. But the fruits are full of seeds, this is one goal to get the seeds off from the fruits and get one variety with seedless fruits like fruit bananas.

Best wishes
Basjoofriend

Basjoofriend, удачи!
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:53 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Weird hybrid

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....If any of you have any ideas please post them.Just to remind,my goal is to have a banana variety that can give a decent amount of ripe fruit within one growing season in zone 6.I imagine this variety as a very short plant with big leaves and vigorous growth,but not too needy for nutrients and banana bunches would not be huge,but not too small either.
Baboon,

Here's what I can suggest. I know from experience that the ABB Orinoco group can produce 2x AB pollen. The A genome, almost by default, carries the p1, p2 & p3 genes thought responsible for parthenocarpy in banana.

Using allotriploid cultivars as pollen donors is, in my experience, the best way to go about banana breeding on a low budget.

So you can try to pollinate velutina with Orinoco. Velutina makes nice fat pulpy fruit; unlike ornata and laterita. Velutina X balbisiana hybrids do exist - another plus.

It is my observation that the triploids produced when Orinoco pollinates Musa acuminata malaccensis are often parthenocarpic.

I believe that it is more useful to get triploid F1s than diploid or tetraploid. Triploids force recombinations among chromosomes of different species far better than allotetraploids or allodiploids.

You can then backcross to velutina using whatever pollen you can scrounge from your triploid F1s; hoping for more triploids with recombinant chromosomes in the offspring; and selecting for parthenocarpy and cool-tolerance. You can iterate this process indefinitely.

To do this well you'd need at least half acre of field space - and much more if you don't ruthlessly cull.

After you've fixed a few lines of reasonably dwarf, annual cycling parthenocarps; you might try to see if you can get segregates from their selfed progeny.

Normal banana breeding doesn't work like this; there aren't really enough progeny, and the genetic base is often too narrow to look for segregates as a practical approach.

Problem is though, it's really hard to breed a long cycling tropical crop like this in a greenhouse. You need an open field in a tropical environment.

You have a chance, as you're not breeding a "commercial" banana; but an edible curiousity for backyard horticulturists. This is one step above breeding florists' bananas by hybridisation.

I understand the allure of getting a nice annual banana that you can put into the ground in spring and munch on later in the summer!


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