Bananas.org

Welcome to the Bananas.org forums.

You're currently viewing our message boards as a guest which gives you limited access to participate in discussions and access our other features such as our wiki and photo gallery. By joining our community, you'll have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Go Back   Bananas.org > Banana Forum > Species Bananas
Register Photo Gallery Classifieds Wiki Chat Map Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Species Bananas Discussions of all the different wild species of banana (non edible), an aspect of the hobby that deserves its own section.


Members currently in the chatroom: 0
The most chatters online in one day was 17, 09-06-2009.
No one is currently using the chat.

Reply   Email this Page Email this Page
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-29-2008, 08:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
*********
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Location: Gainesville, FL
Zone: 8b
Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,002
BananaBucks : 730,748
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 212 Times
Was Thanked 1,787 Times in 502 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times
Send a message via AIM to bigdog Send a message via MSN to bigdog
Default Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

I have the new Musa itinerans article, written by Markku Hakkinen and published by Novon (Hakkinen, Markku. "Musa itinerans (Musaceae) and Its Intraspecific Taxa in China." Novon 18 (2008): 50-60.).

Here are the 6 varieties described in the article:

Musa itinerans var. itinerans
Musa itinerans var. annamica (formerly Musa itinerans subsp. annamica)
Musa itinerans var. chinensis
Musa itinerans var. guangdongensis - Not 'Burmese Blue'
Musa itinerans var. lechangensis
Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannensis

The big news here is that variety guangdongensis is not synonymous with 'Burmese Blue'! 'Burmese Blue' looks to be another variety of M. itinerans, but isn't covered in the article. Neither is Musa formosana of Taiwan. In fact, the article states that "Several other Musa itinerans varieties can be observed in Hainan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, Myanmar, and India, but these taxa are subject to further study."

I immediately looked for The 'Yunnan' variety, and it looks to be var. chinensis. Only var. itinerans and var. xishuangbannaensis have the very long rhizomes. Var. annamica is rhizomatous as well, but has short rhizomes (0.2-0.5m away from parent plant).

How's this for a biggun: var. xishuangbannaensis has a female bud of size 80 cm x 20 cm (that's 2 1/2 feet long)! The pseudostem is second only in size to Musa ingens, at 12 m (almost 40 ft.) tall (Musa ingens is 15 m (almost 50 ft.) tall). It sends rhizomes up to 5 m away from the parent plant. Leaf size = 500 x 105 cm ... now my math isn't that good, but isn't that 5 meters x 1.05 meters?? A 15 + foot leaf? WOW!! I somehow have the feeling now that the banana in my gallery is not var. xishuangbannaensis! Or it could just be really small? LOL. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around a 15+ foot leaf...

I could go on and on with this article, but that would take awhile. I really wanted to compare the Musa yunnanensis description with Musa itinerans var. chinensis. The descriptions are similar, but there are definite differences. I haven't become an "expert" on deciphering botanical language, so I'm still learning that. The biggest obstacle I have is that the flowers and fruit are the most easily-distinguishable differences, and I don't get flowers or fruit here! I am forced to go by pictures, and that gives me a little bit better of an idea. I still want to see the plants side by side, as Markku says that they are easily distinguishable in the field vegetatively. Anyhow, here are some of the major differences:

M. yunnanensis male flower bud is lanceolate (12 x 4 cm), whereas Musa itinerans male bud is ovoid (15 x 9 cm).
M. yunnanensis male bud has a yellow apex, M. itinerans does not (or at least it isn't specified in the description).
M. yunnanensis has a very waxy stem with black blotches even close to flowering size, M. itinerans does not (although it does have some wax).
M itinerans always has a reddish color when young, Musa yunnanensis does not.
Sap is watery with M. yunannensis, watery-milky with M. itinerans.
Both species have rounded and auriculate leaf bases, although Musa itinerans leaf bases are asymmetric, where Musa yunnanensis has symmetric leaf bases.
There is a difference in the fruits also. Inside, Musa itinerans has ovules in 4 rows per locule. Musa yunnanensis has ovules in 2 rows per locule. So, Musa itinerans has about 250-270 seeds per fruit, and M. yunnanensis has 80-100 seeds per fruit. Musa itinerans also has basal female flowers, where Musa yunnanensis has basal hermaphrodite flowers. The only Musa itinerans variety (described in this article) to have hermaphrodite flowers is var. xishuangbannaensis.

I could go on and on with the similarities. Maybe Eric will read this and check out the fruit. Eric, email me if you read this please.
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To bigdog

Join Bananas.org Today!

Are you a banana plant enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Bananas.org is owned and operated by fellow banana plant enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information. Receive all three issues from Volume 1 of Bananas Magazine with your membership:
   

Join Bananas.org Today! - Click Here


Sponsors

Old 02-29-2008, 09:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
Formerly known as porkpi
 
Simply Bananas's Avatar
 
Location: James Island SC
Zone: 8b-9a
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 854
BananaBucks : 286,645
Feedback: 2 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 478 Times
Was Thanked 1,191 Times in 335 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 458 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

What does Agristarts sell(sold), yunannensis?
I think that is what I have.
__________________
Afterall...doesn't everyone want a bigger Banana?

Our Banana Videos On YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCii..._p_tJVXZOHAdRA
Simply Bananas is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To Simply Bananas
Old 03-01-2008, 10:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
*********
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Location: Gainesville, FL
Zone: 8b
Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,002
BananaBucks : 730,748
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 212 Times
Was Thanked 1,787 Times in 502 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times
Send a message via AIM to bigdog Send a message via MSN to bigdog
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by porkpi View Post
What does Agristarts sell(sold), yunannensis?
I think that is what I have.
Yes, AgriStarts sells Musa yunnanensis, not Musa itinerans. They are who I got my original plants from several years ago. rarepalmseeds.com also sells Musa yunnanensis seed, and they have changed the name accordingly.

Also, Musa itinerans 'India Form' was not described in this article, so it must be one of the varieties that Hakkinen alluded to that needs future study! I'm just speculating that though.

Another distinguishing feature of var. xishuangbannaensis is that the sap is watery red. I'm thinking that the variety that I have is var. itinerans, but can't know until spring (if it returns, that is).

A very promising part of the article states that each of these varieties is subject to frost and snow in at least part of its natural range. That means that they should all be somewhat cold-hardy!
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To bigdog
Old 03-01-2008, 10:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15
BananaBucks : 2,572
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 2 Times
Was Thanked 11 Times in 3 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 0 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

could you send me a copy?
taroking is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To taroking
Old 03-01-2008, 11:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
*********
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Location: Gainesville, FL
Zone: 8b
Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,002
BananaBucks : 730,748
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 212 Times
Was Thanked 1,787 Times in 502 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times
Send a message via AIM to bigdog Send a message via MSN to bigdog
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

It's a copyright issue, so unfortunately no I can't. It should be printed on a website somewhere soon though. The Musa yunnanensis description was.
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To bigdog
Said thanks:
Sponsors

Old 03-07-2008, 10:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 422
BananaBucks : 19,048
Feedback: 1 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 29 Times
Was Thanked 438 Times in 234 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Hey Frank, a 15' leaf is big, but Musa 'Balboa' gets a 12' leaf which is awfully close. Of course, good luck with any of us in Tennessee getting a leaf that big.
RobG7aChattTN is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To RobG7aChattTN
Old 03-08-2008, 09:52 AM   #7 (permalink)
*********
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Location: Gainesville, FL
Zone: 8b
Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,002
BananaBucks : 730,748
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 212 Times
Was Thanked 1,787 Times in 502 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times
Send a message via AIM to bigdog Send a message via MSN to bigdog
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Yeah, but is that 12' with the petiole? The petioles on var. xishuangbannaensis are about 100 cm long, which amounts to another 3 1/2 feet! So they are close to 20 feet long total. But you're right...good luck with any of us ever seeing that here in TN!
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To bigdog
Old 03-10-2008, 07:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 422
BananaBucks : 19,048
Feedback: 1 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 29 Times
Was Thanked 438 Times in 234 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 2 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Ahh...that 12' included the petiole.That means that x$%#&*$%&% (sorry about the spelling) is actually a good 50% longer than 'Balboa', which is really huge.
RobG7aChattTN is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To RobG7aChattTN
Old 03-13-2008, 07:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Location: Orlando,FL
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 83
BananaBucks : 96,879
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 5 Times
Was Thanked 119 Times in 28 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

I checked and the ones we have has just clear watery sap, I sawed one off yesterday. So you think it is just var. itinerans not var. xish. ? The stalk that was flowering hasn't set any fruit yet. There is another getting ready to flower, the bud is just emerging but it isn't any larger than the first.

So is the Musa sp. "Yunnan" M. yunnanensis or M. itinerans var. chinensis?

Here is the photo of the rhizome of the Musa itinerans we have (itinerans or xish.?). It was about 4ft from the parent, the rhizome itself has a nice red color but no red sap.

__________________
Eric
Orlando,FL z9b/10a
Eric-Orlando,FL is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To Eric-Orlando,FL
Old 03-13-2008, 08:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
Freezing member
 
mrbungalow's Avatar
 
Location: Bergen, Norway
Zone: 8
Name: Erlend
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 598
BananaBucks : 45,774
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 14 Times
Was Thanked 165 Times in 78 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 3 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

What happened to Musa Itinerans var. "formasana"? Is that one back to Musa basjoo var. "formasana" or a new distinct species?

Erlend
__________________
mrbungalow is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To mrbungalow
Old 03-13-2008, 03:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
Moderator

 
Gabe15's Avatar
 
Location: Oahu, Hawaii
Zone: 12
Name: Gabe
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,892
BananaBucks : 13,338,274
Feedback: 5 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 1 Times
Was Thanked 8,237 Times in 2,200 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 8 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbungalow View Post
What happened to Musa Itinerans var. "formasana"? Is that one back to Musa basjoo var. "formasana" or a new distinct species?

Erlend
There are still more varieties not published yet, "var. formosana" might be one to be published later on.
__________________
Growing bananas in Colorado, Washington, Hawaii since 2004. Commercial banana farmer, 200+ varieties.
Gabe15 is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To Gabe15
Old 03-13-2008, 10:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
*********
 
bigdog's Avatar
 
Location: Gainesville, FL
Zone: 8b
Name: Frank
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,002
BananaBucks : 730,748
Feedback: 7 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 212 Times
Was Thanked 1,787 Times in 502 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 131 Times
Send a message via AIM to bigdog Send a message via MSN to bigdog
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Orlando,FL View Post
I checked and the ones we have has just clear watery sap, I sawed one off yesterday. So you think it is just var. itinerans not var. xish. ? The stalk that was flowering hasn't set any fruit yet. There is another getting ready to flower, the bud is just emerging but it isn't any larger than the first.

So is the Musa sp. "Yunnan" M. yunnanensis or M. itinerans var. chinensis?

Here is the photo of the rhizome of the Musa itinerans we have (itinerans or xish.?). It was about 4ft from the parent, the rhizome itself has a nice red color but no red sap.

Whoops, just saw this after I basically answered this question in another thread, LOL! If it is watery sap with no red (the description for var. itinerans says watery milky), it isn't var. xishuangbannaensis.

The other banana is Musa yunnanensis. There is a big difference in the shape of the flower bud between it and M. itinerans.

Nothing about M. formosana or M. 'Burmese Blue' was addressed in this article.
bigdog is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To bigdog
Old 03-21-2008, 10:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
Member
 
Basjoofriend's Avatar
 
Location: Lucianópolis-BRAZIL
Zone: 10
Name: 01
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 926
BananaBucks : 186,358
Feedback: 0 / 0%
Said "Thanks" 138 Times
Was Thanked 266 Times in 123 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 1 Times
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Hi,

wow, these 6 are even the must for my yard in Brazil! Are still there seed stores which are still offering seeds of these species and varieties and will also ship to Brazil?

12 metres is very much! This will be one sensation in Brazil, the second largest!

Thanks in advance.

Best wishes
Basjoofriend
Basjoofriend is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To Basjoofriend
Old 10-27-2008, 12:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
The causasian Asian!
 
Chironex's Avatar
 
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Zone: I have no idea
Name: Scot
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,788
BananaBucks : 117,831
Feedback: 9 / 100%
Said "Thanks" 4,544 Times
Was Thanked 1,406 Times in 808 Posts
Said "Welcome to Bananas" 609 Times
Send a message via MSN to Chironex Send a message via Yahoo to Chironex
Default Re: Musa itinerans article has been published! At least 6 varieties.

Frank, I just found this thread. Sorry to duplicate it in my post. Guess I should have searched first, I was just too excited.
Good info on itinerans forms. I will keep my fingers crossed that what i have is in fact, Xishuangbannensis. Can't wait to see red sap! Then we will know for certain.
__________________
Scot


Click for Jakarta, Indonesia Forecast
Chironex is offline   Reply With Quote Send A Private Message To Chironex
Reply   Email this Page Email this Page






Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can We Clear up Musa itinerans...PLEASE? bigdog Species Bananas 17 04-18-2015 04:29 AM
seed musa itinérans david Banana Plants For Sale & Auction 6 02-05-2008 09:00 PM
Banana Article--History of Disease and Development of New Varieties austinl01 Banana Books, Book Reviews, & Other Reading Material 9 01-12-2008 04:00 AM
Musa itinerans var. xishuangbannaensis ? 51st state Species Bananas 2 12-27-2007 09:50 PM
WANTED: Musa 'Bordelon' and Musa itinerans Gabe15 Banana Plants Wanted 5 12-14-2007 05:20 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:35 PM.





All content © Bananas.org & the respective author.