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Species Bananas Discussions of all the different wild species of banana (non edible), an aspect of the hobby that deserves its own section.


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Old 08-21-2005, 09:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Hi all,

Has anyone fruited this and can comment on whether or not it is truly an edible or seeded variety? I don't have this yet, but there are several large stands at the LSU trial (only 6 varities, being tested as landscapers). They were starting to bloom last time I was there and I must say its a very ornamental inflorescence.. pendant, but on par with the upright ornamental types. I recall it being mentioned as a possible hybrid being M. acuminata and ornata or velutina?? The true source of it is still unknown, but if it was a hybrid I have a feeling it was not introduced into Louisiana but created there, and i have a guess by who as well (might have its brother/sister ). So, all of this to ask does anyone know if this thing produces seeds? or if its classification is known ie, AA, AAA, or whatever? If it produces large, edible fruits than that would kill my guess on its origin.

Tim Chapman
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:24 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Tim,
I have seen many 'Bordelon' plants this year and have seen them in fruit. They are clearly not edible and look to me like Musa acuminata subsp. zebrina x ornata (more then likely one of those "ornata" hybrids you could probly assume). However, they do resemble fairly closely some pure subsp. zebrina, but I think some of the colors are too bright and the plants just slender enough to suspect hybridization. This one has been on my list to get for awhile now.



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Old 08-21-2005, 09:35 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

On another semi-related topic, I have also seen many of these cool edible acum. subsp. zebrina type plants. I always thought they were zebrina until I saw enough of them fruit and they must be a hybrid with an edible and I even tasted some of the fruit and it was quite good, and fully parthenocarpic. They are not the 'Gran Nain' x zebrina, but something along those lines. They have one here at the Denver Botanic Gardens labled 'Raja Puri' (as if!!!), so maybe someone was selling them as 'Raja Puri'. I managed to snag a pup from a hotel in Florida this summer (hehehe!), so it will be cool to see it grow. I got some pics of that too I'll post later.
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Old 08-21-2005, 02:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

I hate to think about how much could be mislabled out there, based solely on the appearance of the leaves.. which is what many people have done with the red blotched stuff.

The 'Bordelon' s that I saw seemed to have more pink in the infruct. and fruits (which were just starting to form, but very small). I really need to go back soon to check them out. Gabe, you didn't see any ripe fruits by any chance? Growing some out from seed would tell us what we need to know. I have a 'zebrina' cross that is great, except for the fact that it is very slow growing. On the other hand, the Bordelons over at LSU are huge, with just one years growth... everything is thriving, except for the ratty m. beccariis that barely made it through winter there. They are in a wide open field, with no protection. The Dwarf Orinoco (spelling?) are fruiting. I'll keep an eye out on those to see if they actually ripen in time. It means nothing to someone living ...in say, colorado.. but in zone 8b that would be great

I've seen a photo of a dwarf M. acum. zebrina that had major breeding potential. Don't know if its in the US or not, would love to get some.

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Old 08-21-2005, 02:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Who knows, there are probly a few different types based on the common trend in the banana trade today anyways, seems for every name there are at least 3 different plants. I didnt see any ones with ripe fruit, I guess no one wanted to pollinate them. Im going into breeding myself, I got lots of help but I have some really cool ideas, some ornamental, some edible (these should be fun, AA cultivars x Rhodochlamys, you see where this is going! Its reported to work just fine, just the plants I guess were never released to the trade). I have lots of ideas but not enough capacity to do them all, but I should be able to get a few done in the next year at least. If you are still up for experimenting with pollen shipping, I got some cool ideas. Seems there has been close to zero Callimusa hybrid experiments, I guess just some textilis x some small Callimusa and thats its. Musa coccinea x anything else seems kinda obvious for a kick-ass new one, so I know I got to try that! Maybe M. coccinea x campestris var. limbangensis, or x borneensis? Now were talkin! Maybe when I make it over to Hawaii in 2 years I can try out that stuff. I want to cross every bloom I get, makes no sense to try to get seeds of the plants I already have!
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Old 08-21-2005, 02:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

'Dwarf Orinoco', speaking of hardy fruiters, I also got me a few 'California Gold's! Suppose to fruit EVERY YEAR in NoCal even when coming back from the corm after winter. So, lets think this out M. 'California Gold' x rubinea, laterita or velutina? Hmmm, not good enough, Musa ('California Gold' x yunnanensis) x rubinea! Hey, you never know until you try!
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

I have some references to a few M. coccinea crosses, however its aggravating as some have footnotes in later references saying that some of the M. coccinea were actually M. laterita! Some are definite M. coccinea crosses, you probably have one of those texts (cytogenetics of the genus musa i think).

For fruiting ornamental hybrids, M. beccarii should be considered as I think it has the largest fruit of any of the ornamentals i've seen. M. coccinea fruit can be decent sized (a bit large than M. velutina).. but you rarily see those fruit... weird looking seeds too. I'm starting some tetraploid stuff soon, first 4 species have been sown, hopefully I won't be gone when they all sprout this time !!! If you aren't 'learned up' on conversions, let me know i'll send some info on treflan conversions, it should be pretty easy with musa.. just don't think anyone has tried yet. I have the material, just need to time it right.

There are sooooo many worthwhile crosses to try, endless dreams and possibilities!! I've said for awhile that the ornamental musa will be the heliconia for zone 8.. maybe 7 too. just need to make all these things!

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Old 08-21-2005, 06:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Isn't M. beccarii different chomosome number then any of the other Callimusa? I know for awhile it was incertae sedis or whatever and they couldnt really detirimine a chromosome number, I think they finally setteld on 2n=18, looks like Musa needs a new section! I think M. exotica is good one to test, its already partially parthenocarpic, all it needs is a little bigger fruit, maybe M. exotica x borneensis? But how will we get these plants!!!M. boreneensis has the largest wild fruit in the genus, so why not (I suppose its not that ornametal though, altough if you crossed it with coccinea you may get some crazy Ensete bloom looking-ish thing!) Or maybe M. flavida which I guess is probly the same except with a yellow as opossed to red male bud, I think. My first hybrid looks like it will be Musa 'Rose' x laterita in an attempt to make a small, single season fruiter that you could store dry over winter, I guess we'll have to see if it works, my 'Rose' is close to flowering and I can get endelss amounts of laterita pollen close by. So many hybrids to make, so little space to grow them!!!!!!
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

not sure on the chromosome count of beccarii, thought it was the same as M. coccinea. Regardless, making tetraploids of all of these would possibly eliminate some of the barriers caused different chromosome numbers. There are already crosses like this with other, less attractive species .

I'm attaching a photo of M. beccarii fruits, nothing in the photo for comparison but they are 6-7 inches long, and weren't even fully ripe in this photo.

Tim C.
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Tim,
Im sending you an email on Musa beccarii, let me know if you get it or not.
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Old 08-21-2005, 08:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

trying to link the same photo from my gallery.
...
ok so that didn't work, how does one insert an image if its in the gallery? Or can you only link to it? I know how to insert an image from an outside source.
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Old 08-22-2005, 02:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Here is the pic Tim, kinda bootlegged so I don't know how to do it directly from the gallery, but at least it's in the thread.
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Old 08-22-2005, 03:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Musa 'Bordelon' fruiting ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimChapman
trying to link the same photo from my gallery.
...
ok so that didn't work, how does one insert an image if its in the gallery? Or can you only link to it? I know how to insert an image from an outside source.
See the second post here, shows you how:
How to post images in your threads
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